Confessing Movement within the United Methodist Church

KimT · Jul 5, 2015

This movement, which has been going on within the UMC since the early 90s, is unknown to many Methodists. It is not asking for a new definition of faith, but for a new level of integrity in upholding our historic doctrinal standards.

Discuss?

BryanW92 · Jul 5, 2015

I was in the confessing movement for a couple years. In my district, it was 100% laity. We would talk to like-minded pastors and they would agree with it in principle, but would never attend a meeting. They'd agree to show up, but would cancel at the last minute. Even my own pastor, who was further to the right than I am, spoke oddly about it. He told me, "It wouldn't be a good idea for me to get involved with this, but I'd really like for you to go." I think they had orders from above, but not too far above, if you get my drift.

revanneosl · Jul 5, 2015

My experience is that they have done little to assist local churches in any way, but that they raise a whole heck of a lot of money every 4 years around General Conference time.

BryanW92 · Jul 5, 2015

revanneosl said:
My experience is that they have done little to assist local churches in any way, but that they raise a whole heck of a lot of money every 4 years around General Conference time.

Who do they raise money from? We never raised any money, except for what we gave.

Its not really a movement to help local churches at this point. Its more of an insurgency movement.

revanneosl · Jul 5, 2015

I may be confusing them with the IRD.

BryanW92 · Jul 5, 2015

revanneosl said:
I may be confusing them with the IRD.

Could be. They are much bigger and more organized and I still get fundraising requests from them all the time.

circuitrider · Jul 5, 2015

I don't have much sympathy with the Confessing Movement. They are trying to turn the UMC into something it has never been, which is strictly creedal. Methodism as a movement was not about doctrinal purity.

Wesley didn't disagree with most of the doctrines of the Church of England. The movement was about holiness.

BryanW92 · Jul 5, 2015

circuitrider said:
I don't have much sympathy with the Confessing Movement. They are trying to turn the UMC into something it has never been, which is strictly creedal. Methodism as a movement was not about doctrinal purity.

As you stated in another thread:

circuitrider said:
Bryan,

The church is going to change a lot in the next twenty years. One of the changes will be that there are less and less churches with full-time pastors. Nothing is likely to stop that change.

Sadly, I agree with that. We're seeing it already. As we move into this post-Christian era, churches are going to have to become more confessional or they will turn into little more than social clubs run by the big givers or the charismatic members, especially as they stop being able to afford full-time clergy. Wesley had the advantage of operating in a Christian culture, where the Christian worldview was the default all but a very small minority of the people in his area of influence. It's a shame that he never did get to go teach the gospel to the native Americans during his time in Georgia because he might have moved back towards understanding the need for a Confession when among non-Christians.

circuitrider · Jul 5, 2015

You are seriously mistaken about Wesley's culture. It was far far from Christian. That is why his revival was necessary. The Church had fallen into lethargy. Poor people were encouraged NOT to go to church. Church had become for the wealthy and the well to do while the church majored on right doctrine rather than right hearts.

An over obsession with doctrinal perfection has never helped the Church any more than the Pharisees were a big help to Judaism in the long run.

United Methodists focus on agreement on basic doctrines while allowing for diversity and individual differences.

What the confessing movement wants will further solidify the concrete that is known as the institutional church. We need spiritual fire far more than we need doctrinal crystallization.

Wesley's goal was to spread scriptural holiness throughout the land not doctrinal purity.

BryanW92 · Jul 5, 2015

circuitrider said:
You are seriously mistaken about Wesley's culture. It was far far from Christian. That is why his revival was necessary. The Church had fallen into lethargy. Poor people were encouraged NOT to go to church. Church had become for the wealthy and the well to do while the church majored on right doctrine rather than right hearts.

Yes, the poor were driven from the church, but they still lived in a culture that was fundamentally Christian. His revival was for the "church people" to make them bring all the people back inside. But, when he was doing open-air preaching, the poor people came to hear not because they had never heard the gospel before, but because no one from the Church had brought it to them in a long time. They were already Christians and their culture was Christian.

If he set up in the parking lot of a mall today, the "church people" would gather to hear, but the rest of our society would walk past or stop and heckle because their culture is not Christian.

BryanW92 · Jul 5, 2015

circuitrider said:
What the confessing movement wants will further solidify the concrete that is known as the institutional church. We need spiritual fire far more than we need doctrinal crystallization.

The spiritual fire just isn't there. At district and conference gatherings of the UMC, I would look around at the faces. The people from the mostly-black UM churches were the only ones with fire in their eyes and in the south, black Methodist churches are more Baptist (and informally creedal) than what you would consider to be UM in the midwest.

circuitrider · Jul 5, 2015

One of the requirements I had to fill when I took United Methodist history was to read several detailed articles about the culture of Wesley's day. Some were really interesting. The one of economics was a bit tedious. But I don't know how you can contend that the culture was Christian. I think that is a myth.

Could you tell me what constituted the culture being Christian? If anything a good part of the Church was far less Christian than it is now. Bishops were political appointees for example. I don't see anything particularly more Christian about the culture.

As to laughing at street preaching, well yes. People probably would laugh. But that isn't so much about the culture being less Christian than that being a very old fashioned way to communicate the gospel that has now been taken over by the lunatic fringe.

The street preachers that showed up where my daughter graduated from University were generally wackos. Mainstream Christians never stood there to preach. So why would anyone want to listen to that?

circuitrider · Jul 5, 2015

BryanW92 said:
The spiritual fire just isn't there. At district and conference gatherings of the UMC, I would look around at the faces. The people from the mostly-black UM churches were the only ones with fire in their eyes and in the south, black Methodist churches are more Baptist (and informally creedal) than what you would consider to be UM in the midwest.

As an ex-Baptist I can tell you that Baptists are anti-creedal. They'd scratch their heads at the confessing movement. Their mantra is "no creed but the Bible." The confessing movement usually talks about enforcing of faith statements. I seldom hear Baptists talk like that.

I do find that black Methodist and Baptist pastors have a very spiritual style of preaching that I greatly enjoy. But don't confuse style with substance. God speaks through all kinds of styles of worship and preaching.

I'm sorry you feel the part of the UMC you were in is lacking in spirit. But I sure don't see that here. I heard solid spiritual preaching at Conference this year and I do every year.

Could it be that you disagree more with the content or the viewpoints of the UMC preaching? You can be fired up and be right or fired up and be wrong.

BryanW92 · Jul 5, 2015

circuitrider said:
Could you tell me what constituted the culture being Christian?
...
Bishops were political appointees for example. I don't see anything particularly more Christian about the culture.
...
The street preachers that showed up where my daughter graduated from University were generally wackos. Mainstream Christians never stood there to preach. So why would anyone want to listen to that?

The basics: the people generally accepting the major Genesis and Exodus stories, along with a cultural acceptance of the basics of the gospels and a statement by people, if asked, that "I am a Christian". You don't get that today from most people. You may get the statement with some knowledge of the birth and death of Jesus, along with the Cecille B DeMille Moses story, but most people outside of the church will give you all of those basics.

When I talk about Christian culture, make no mistake: I never include church government in that. Everyone in church hierarchy about the rank of local church pastor do more to hurt the cause of Jesus than to help it. That was as true then as it is today.

OK, so people who preach in the public square are wackos. Like Peter and John? I know that you're a social gospel guy, so why is is wacko to preach the gospel outside of the church building? If only wackos preach outdoors, shouldn't the non-wacko clergy get out there to spread the true message a little bit?

BryanW92 · Jul 5, 2015

circuitrider said:
As an ex-Baptist I can tell you that Baptists are anti-creedal. They'd scratch their heads at the confessing movement. Their mantra is "no creed but the Bible." The confessing movement usually talks about enforcing of faith statements. I seldom hear Baptists talk like that.

I only know Southern Baptists and while they claim to be anti-creedal, they are every bit as creedal as a Calvinist. If you don't agree with every part of their "what we believe" statement, then you need to go elsewhere and NOW. Perhaps your ABC Baptists were a lot more flexible.

circuitrider · Jul 5, 2015

Not like Peter and John. That's the point. Like right wing independent fundamentalists screaming about the end times.

Also where did you get the idea that a particular view of Genesis was part of basic Christianity? You won't get that from and of the creeds, or the Articles of Religion or the Confession of Faith of the UMC.

My suspicion is that often the Confessing Movement actually wants to enforce doctrines that are not basic to Christianity or United Methodism.

BryanW92 · Jul 5, 2015

circuitrider said:
Could it be that you disagree more with the content or the viewpoints of the UMC preaching? You can be fired up and be right or fired up and be wrong.

Not really. When I was attending those events, I was on board with what they were preaching. My own pastor was far to the left of you and I went along with what he taught. So, it wasn't content.

circuitrider · Jul 5, 2015

BryanW92 said:
I only know Southern Baptists and while they claim to be anti-creedal, they are every bit as creedal as a Calvinist. If you don't agree with every part of their "what we believe" statement, then you need to go elsewhere and NOW. Perhaps your ABC Baptists were a lot more flexible.

I grew up Southern Baptist. It very much depends on which Southern Baptist you talk to. They have plenty of churches that have never adopted their latest Baptist Faith and Message statement and won't do it because they don't want to.

Baptists actually have far less doctrinal oversight than Methodists. We share a common faith statement. Baptists often have individual faith statements in their local bylaws that disagree with each other. I pastored for 20 years with Baptists. Every Baptist church I pastored had a different faith statement. That includes the SBC churches I worked in and the ABC churches.

BryanW92 · Jul 5, 2015

circuitrider said:
Not like Peter and John. That's the point. Like right wing independent fundamentalists screaming about the end times.

Also where did you get the idea that a particular view of Genesis was part of basic Christianity? You won't get that from and of the creeds, or the Articles of Religion or the Confession of Faith of the UMC.

My suspicion is that often the Confessing Movement actually wants to enforce doctrines that are not basic to Christianity or United Methodism.

I ignore end-times screamers as well. Note that I didn't include that in my list.

I get the idea that Genesis is part of the basic faith because God did create the universe in whatever time frame and method(s) he chose to use (but almost certainly not 7 earth days!). Is that really not a part of your church doctrines?

KimT · Jul 5, 2015

Here are some of the quotes out of the original confessing movement documents drafted in the early 90s.

"The confessing movement is a witness by United Methodist lay men and women, clergy, and congregations who pledge unequivocal and confident allegiance to the Lord Jesus Christ according to "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3.) Not a human contrivance, this faith centers on Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man; and on His life, death, resurrection, ascension, and promised return as attested on Holy Scripture.

"The confessing movement asserts that the Church has an identity grounded in Jesus Christ, not created or projected out of our own desires and experiences."

"Those who treat theology as a matter of personal experimentation have in recent years gained a new level of audacity. They have used the umbrellas of pluralism and inclusiveness to support an agenda of theological relativism which hedges and equivocates on all doctrinal definitions. This in effect invites both laity and clergy to imagine that anything goes in United Methodist theology and that there are no boundaries whatsoever. Some United Methodists elevate their private experiences to the position of judge and arbiter of Christian faith. Others exchange the historic faith for political, therapeutic, sexual, or gender-based ideologies with religious veneers. This abandonment of classical Christianity is occurring in a church that has nearly lost its immune system with regard to false teaching--in a church that appears fearful of, and perhaps unwilling to face, even a minimal level of doctrinal discipline."

Our local pastor has embraced the Confessing Movement. He has pastored our church for nearly 30 years and his sermons and classes are bible-based. He doesn't water down scripture. I've been to other Methodist churches that, if I weren't a Christian, would not hear the Gospel for weeks at a time. He attends the general assembly every four years, and is concerned what will happen in 2016.

I've read pages and pages of documents from the Confessing Movement and my take is that it is a return to an emphasis on holiness and Christ crucified in line with the book of Acts and the epistles. I do think it is silent some cultural changes (women ordination, for example.)

Just interested in what others have to say. I learn a lot here.

Confessing Movement within the United Methodist Church

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