Mount Rushmore

MoonlessNight

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Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer have been scrubbed from reading lists.

This has always been idiotic, seeing how the point of Huck Finn was that Jim is a person who deserves to be treated as well as anyone else, and Huck is willing to risk everything because of that.
 
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SolomonVII

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This has always been idiotic, seeing how the point of Huck Finn was that Jim is a person who deserves to be treated as well as anyone else, and Huck is willing to risk everything because of that.
That is pretty much how I remembered it back when I read those things as a kid.
 
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Sword of the Lord

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Now that would have been interesting. My husband laughed at your comment and said he would feel sorry for the people who would have argued with me.
I suspect you're not all that and they would have been fine.
 
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Fish and Bread

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There appears to be an underlining subtle attitude that Native Americans just need to get over the past atrocities committed against their ancestors.

To be clear, I am not saying that Native Americans "just need to get over the past atrocities committed against their ancestors". I understand why these things bother people. They probably should bother people. They were a horrific mistake and should be a lesson on what not do going forward. I am not telling anyone not to feel upset or bitter.

All I am saying is that, for me, America is more than a collection of mistakes and times where we've failed to live up to our ideals. Sometimes, we get things right, and we have even, and this is probably only a mild exaggeration, saved the world once or twice as well (See: World War 2). We also laid out a set of principles that I think, if we lived up to them, and when we live up to those of them we sometimes live up to, it would and does make the world a better place. We don't always live up to our ideals and do the right thing, but I don't think I want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that destroys all the good ideals we have and the good that we have done.

I understand why a Native American or an African American might see things differently, though, and I am not trying to deny them their feelings. I get where they're going from. We've historically treated those groups very poorly and only recently begun to do better in the grand scheme of things, and need to get better still in the future.
 
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SolomonVII

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Americans have every right to be proud of their country and have pride in their heritage, whatsoever that heritage may be. People without a past are people without a future, and the American past gives much reason for hope.
It is very unhealthy for a people to not honor their roots. Those who feel nothing but shame for the body and the society that they have been born into are a weak and feckless people, and ultimately a drag and a yoke around the neck of all who are in contact with them.
This is not the attitude to take into life, as much as others may say that this is what we deserve.

Christians likewise have given much, much more good to this world than wickedness.
 
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GoingByzantine

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For Native Americans, the oppression continues. In the 1950s the federal government used Jefferson tactics in North Dakota, they built a huge dam that flooded an entire reservation. Then they forced the natives to sell the reservation to the government, and kicked them from the land. The people of the land had no choice but to leave, their homes and farms were destroyed, without their consent. This dam was built to protect white farmers from floods, with no care towards the three tribes that lived there. Below, the chairman of the reservation cries as the government steals his land.

9be924555c9ef0d3f0b54ff9b7ef74fc.jpg

This stuff continues today, at this current moment a group of rich white men are getting ready to build a new reservoir in Anderson, Indiana. This project is called the "Mounds Reservoir" project, named for the sacred Native American site that will be partially destroyed so that people can jet ski and fish.

Every year sacred native mounds are bulldozed, and looted. Walmart is one of the biggest perpetrators, check this link to view their track record:

http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/09/wal-marts-history-of-destroying-sacred-sites.html

While the government of the United States is making tourist dollars off of Mount Rushmore, nearby Native American settlements live in extreme poverty. 6 of the ten poorest Counties in the United States (per capita) are in North and South Dakota. What do they all share in common? They all just happen to be predominantly Native American.

 
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Tallguy88

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With all the hoopla over the Confederate flag, its easy to forget that there are plenty of other racist symbols in America.

Mount Rushmore for instance was built on top of a Sioux holy site, by a sculptor who also carved figures of Confederate leaders into a Georgia mountain.

He started the Stone Mountain bas relief project, but could not finish it. I believe it was finally completed in 1964ish.

And only one Confederate leader is depicted, Jeff Davis. The other two are the great generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.

It's the largest Bas Relief in the whole world.

640px-StoneMountain.jpg


640px-Stone_mountain_closer_up.jpg
 
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ebia

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I don't know if this is off topic of your OP, but a friend of mine shared this quote of MLK on Facebook and I wanted to share it with you.

“Our nation was born in genocide when it embraced the doctrine that the original American, the Indian, was an inferior race. Even before there were large numbers of Negroes on our shore, the scar of racial hatred had already disfigured colonial society. From the sixteenth century forward, blood flowed in battles over racial supremacy. We are perhaps the only nation which tried as a matter of national policy to wipe out its indigenous population. Moreover, we elevated that tragic experience into a noble crusade. Indeed, even today we have not permitted ourselves to reject or feel remorse for this shameful episode. Our literature, our films, our drama, our folklore all exalt it. Our children are still taught to respect the violence which reduced a red-skinned people of an earlier culture into a few fragmented groups herded into impoverished reservations.”
I guess he didnt know about Australia.
 
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Erose

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To be clear, I am not saying that Native Americans "just need to get over the past atrocities committed against their ancestors". I understand why these things bother people. They probably should bother people. They were a horrific mistake and should be a lesson on what not do going forward. I am not telling anyone not to feel upset or bitter.

All I am saying is that, for me, America is more than a collection of mistakes and times where we've failed to live up to our ideals. Sometimes, we get things right, and we have even, and this is probably only a mild exaggeration, saved the world once or twice as well (See: World War 2). We also laid out a set of principles that I think, if we lived up to them, and when we live up to those of them we sometimes live up to, it would and does make the world a better place. We don't always live up to our ideals and do the right thing, but I don't think I want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that destroys all the good ideals we have and the good that we have done.

I understand why a Native American or an African American might see things differently, though, and I am not trying to deny them their feelings. I get where they're going from. We've historically treated those groups very poorly and only recently begun to do better in the grand scheme of things, and need to get better still in the future.
I would say that the only difference between African and Native Americans is yes America has done better when it comes to our African American brethren; but it has not as of yet done so for Native Americans. Driving through any reservation will bring that to clarity.
 
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Red Fox

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I guess he didn't know about Australia.

I don't know what Dr. King knew about Australia. However, I'm sure he was familiar with the history of that country and what happened to its own indigenous people at the hands of other European invaders, but since he lived in this country, he was commenting about the genocide against Native Americans that took place here.
 
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Steve Petersen

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I was just at Mt. Rushmore. A middle-aged Asian man (Vietnamese if I had to guess), his wife, and another middle-aged Asian man were taking pictures there. He was wearing a red T-shirt with an American flag emblazoned on it. He was having his picture taken against the backdrop of the monument. He had a huge smile on his face. Apparently HE was not embarrassed to be wearing that T-shirt. They all took several turns getting pictures in that way. During the course of the day, I heard at least six foreign languages. Mind you, these people had to CHOOSE to visit this place. It is not near any large population centers. At a nearby tourist site, there were stick-pin maps for people to mark where they had come from. I saw one from central Siberia! Now whatever America means to some people here, it obviously means something more to people from OUTSIDE the country.
 
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WarriorAngel

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With all the hoopla over the Confederate flag, its easy to forget that there are plenty of other racist symbols in America.

Mount Rushmore for instance was built on top of a Sioux holy site, by a sculptor who also carved figures of Confederate leaders into a Georgia mountain. The United States forcefully stole the Black Hills from the Sioux, kidnapped and "educated" Sioux children, confined Native Americans to reservations, and then carved up their holy mountain with half done portraits of white men. Hmmmm....that seems pretty hateful and racist.

Yet where is the outrage over this monument? As we speak there are probably tens of thousands of U.S. citizens flocking to Mount Rushmore for a 4th of July fireworks show. Mount Rushmore clearly is a symbol of "national pride" to many people, and they are willing to look past the fact that it has imperialistic qualities left over from manifest destiny. Is this not what the CSA flag is to many Southerners? A symbol of "pride" that has many negative connotations?

As Catholics we need to evaluate whether it is proper to be venerating national symbols, like flags or monuments, at all.
We live in a world of individual demand and outrage if the minority dont get their way. [think temper tantrum]
Thats the point of votes - what the republic [majority] want.
Or used to be.

Now its racist to do much anything these days...especially MOST especially - voice an opinion in opposition to the popular sins of the day.
 
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WarriorAngel

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There appears to be an underlining subtle attitude that Native Americans just need to get over the past atrocities committed against their ancestors. I can't help but wonder if a non-Native American would ever go up to a Jew and tell them to just get over the Holocaust. It's the past after all, so therefore, it should no longer matter.

"America was built on two monumental crimes: The genocide of the Native American and the enslavement of the Africans. The tendency of official America is to memorize other people's crimes and to forget its own to seek a moral high ground as a pretext to ignore real issues." - Mahmood Mamdani
And again - Irish are excluded...or unknown i should say ;)
Irish had it worse than the African slaves.
Im from the Irish ancestry - and though i find what occurred reprehensible - and horrible - we cannot undo the past and no one today was present. [or at least not to my knowledge]
 
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Red Fox

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We live in a world of individual demand and outrage if the minority dont get their way. [think temper tantrum]
Thats the point of votes - what the republic [majority] want.
Or used to be.

Now its racist to do much anything these days...especially MOST especially - voice an opinion in opposition to the popular sins of the day.

On the contrary, Warrior Angel, we live in a world now where racism, hate, and oppression against minorities and certain other classes of people is becoming less and less
acceptable by the general populace. The minority are starting to stand up and are beginning to lift their voices louder to speak out against racism and social injustice. As a minority person myself, being Native American, and having had to struggle with racism and discrimination in my own life, I'm very pleased and relieved to see this starting to happen again in this country. And I hope that fairly soon in the future, the majority who support that confederate rag or any other symbol that glorifies racism, hate, and oppression will soon become the minority and any attempt to further perpetuate racism, hate, and oppression in this country will be silenced.
 
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WarriorAngel

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On the contrary, Warrior Angel, we live in a world now where racism, hate, and oppression against minorities and certain other classes of people is becoming less and less
acceptable by the general populace. The minority are starting to stand up and are beginning to lift their voices louder to speak out against racism and social injustice. As a minority person myself, being Native American, and having had to struggle with racism and discrimination in my own life, I'm very pleased and relieved to see this starting to happen again in this country. And I hope that fairly soon in the future, the majority who support that confederate rag or any other symbol that glorifies racism, hate, and oppression will soon become the minority and any attempt to further perpetuate racism, hate, and oppression in this country will be silenced.
The flag thing is neither here nor there for me - so much.
I see it as a rememberance for some of their own ancestors in the south. Whether right or wrong [and racism is wrong] lives were lost on both sides.
So taking the freedom from some in support of a theory that it is strictly a sign of racism, is judgmental.
It is infringing on a right to own or wave one. Whether or not the minority or anyone else likes it - it does no harm. Its just a piece of material that can be a sign of anything. As i said - maybe a family member who died in the war.

Its just too subjective to personal perspective.
 
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Tallguy88

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And again - Irish are excluded...or unknown i should say ;)
Irish had it worse than the African slaves.
Im from the Irish ancestry - and though i find what occurred reprehensible - and horrible - we cannot undo the past and no one today was present. [or at least not to my knowledge]
I think the difference would be that decedent's of Irish immigrants today are no worse off than the average American. But Natives as a whole are still much worse off than the average American.
 
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WarriorAngel

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I think the difference would be that decedent's of Irish immigrants today are no worse off than the average American. But Natives as a whole are still much worse off than the average American.
I know of little - basically not even sure if visitors are welcome in the communities.
I know they have what seems like their own nation within the nation. I know their health care [and anyone a quarter Native [?] get it for free. I used to have a BF who was Native descent. I think half Native - half German.
I do not have the slightest knowledge to speak on it too much.

Irish eventually integrated into society - it was hard. Many years mocked and looked down on and the butt of many jokes.
 
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Red Fox

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I know of little - basically not even sure if visitors are welcome in the communities.

In the communities I frequent, as long as a non-native person is respectful of our people, our elders, our way of life, and our culture, then they are welcome.

I know they have what seems like their own nation within the nation.

Yes, that is true.

I know their health care [and anyone a quarter Native [?] get it for free.

I wouldn't exactly call our governmental funded "health care" system proper health care.
 
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WarriorAngel

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In the communities I frequent, as long as a non-native person is respectful of our people, our elders, our way of life, and our culture, then they are welcome.



Yes, that is true.



I wouldn't exactly call our governmental funded "health care" system proper health care.
Cool. Maybe someday i could visit.
I met some Natives who told me about the white buffalo.
Interesting. But the animals have come and gone too... but interesting legend.
 
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Fish and Bread

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I would say that the only difference between African and Native Americans is yes America has done better when it comes to our African American brethren; but it has not as of yet done so for Native Americans. Driving through any reservation will bring that to clarity.

Police brutality and slayings in the innercities, and the racism that's come out of the woodwork in forums like this one in reaction to the election of a black President, tell me that we still have a long way to go before African Americans are truly treated as equals by society as whole, though I will certainly agree that we have made *some* progress.

I think often Native Americans get overlooked because they are such a small percentage of the overall population, and often living on their own reservations, and as a result are "out of sight, out of mind" for a lot of folks. We definitely have committed great wrongs against them in the past, though, and I can see that with the level of alcoholism and suicide and such on reservations that we still have progress we need to make in our treatment of Native Americans as well.

I am curious as to what public policies ideas people have to help Native Americans. How we can treat African Americans better in terms of changes to law and law enforcement seems pretty obvious to me, or at least I can come up with several possibilities off the top of my head, but I struggle to come up with good ideas for new laws to help combat the poor position in society that unjust past actions have put many Native Americans in today. I mean, obviously, I oppose things like dumping nuclear waste on reservations and the rest. But what other things should we be encouraging our politicians to favor? I am sure there are a lot of ways we could address this politically, but I guess I'm struggling to come up with specifics. I know we have some smart engaged people here, so I'm curious as to what they think I should be telling people we should do public policy wise, specifically.
 
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