Discussion The WONDERFUL gift and mystery of Tongues ... a spiritual language

Status
Not open for further replies.

Righttruth

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2015
4,484
341
✟154,410.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's correct, only those who choose to pray or praise in tongues are doing so in the Spirit; if people choose not to do so then that's their perogative.

Even though the Greek does not contain capitals Paul's commentary leaves us with no doubt that he is speaking of the Holy Spirit, where the Spirit is essentially the theme of 1Cor 12, 13 & 14 where Paul begins in 12:1 with "Now about spiritual matters...."

I think, 1 Corinthians deals with spiritual aspects and not directly concerned with the Holy Spirit unlike what happened during Pentecost.

Can we supersede the thinking of Paul by replacing 's' with 'S' without considering the context?

1 Corinthians 14
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

1 Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,3 for you are still fleshly.


If praying in unknown tongue guarantees the Holy Spirit, why did he recommend to desire a better gift?
 
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟94,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The WONDERFUL gift and mystery of Tongues ... a spiritual language...

This gift i find to be astounding and exciting and wonderful and far to little importance is placed upon it these days .
im not sure why ..

-- i find there are many who claim to be baptized in the Holy Spirit yet don't seem to either have received this gifting OR dont seem to have any interest in receiving Or the saddest of all don't believe in it ....(thats verbal topic hook haha)

of course one cannot say they are baptized in the Holy Spirit and then not believe in the gift of tongues .. but that's a side topic .

The
gift of tongues , that heavenly language ,that spiritual forming of communication between the Lord JEsus and our own spirit by the enablement of the Holy Spirit causing us by his power to pray in us through us AND FOR us . not only in sounds recognised to be what we would call language but also in utterances and groaning which are beyond the utterance of mankind .

this wonderful gift which enables us to pray the perfect will of God unhindered by carnal reasoning and limited understandings ...
this wonderful gift that allows us to pour our hearts out to the lord when we so do not even know what needs to be poured out :) :clap:
i'll say it again..
ouh :):) i just did :D
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I think, 1 Corinthians deals with spiritual aspects and not directly concerned with the Holy Spirit unlike what happened during Pentecost.

Can we supersede the thinking of Paul by replacing 's' with 'S' without considering the context?

1 Corinthians 14
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

1 Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,3 for you are still fleshly.


If praying in unknown tongue guarantees the Holy Spirit, why did he recommend to desire a better gift?

If Paul is working in complete unity with The Holy Spirit who abides in his spirit, then you would think that when he is praying with his spirit, The Holy Spirit would be intrinsically involved with it.

I don't understand what you are saying when you say that praying in tongues guarantees The Holy Spirit. I would say that if a person is genuinely praying in tongues it is guaranteed that The Holy Spirit is involved. Paul recommended to desire a better gift than the use of tongues in the public fellowship meeting, because it is better to use prophecy rather than tongues because in a fellowship meeting it is better to say things that are understood by the others in the meeting. If a person is speaking in tongues in a meeting, then he might as well be speaking in Outer Hindustani for any understanding that he can give to the others. But when he is alone with God, then the ability to pray in tongues is the best gift he can use, because all the other gifts involve ministry to other people.
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I think, 1 Corinthians deals with spiritual aspects and not directly concerned with the Holy Spirit unlike what happened during Pentecost.
As the Holy Spirit was the one who spoke words of praise to the Father through the 120 on the Day of Pentecost and that he is still the One who speaks through the Believer today with the same words of praise, how can they be different?

Can we supersede the thinking of Paul by replacing 's' with 'S' without considering the context?
My first response to this statement can only be, why would anyone say that Paul could ever be referring to anyone but the Holy Spirit? It’s one thing to uncritically accept the traditions of the scholars of old who essentially knew very little of the Holy Spirit, be it theologically and even experientially but considering the wealth of scholarly discussion on this passage in recent decades, any notion that Paul is referring to anyone or anything but the Holy Spirit belongs to a past age.

1 Corinthians 14
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

1 Cor. 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,3 for you are still fleshly.


If praying in unknown tongue guarantees the Holy Spirit, why did he recommend to desire a better gift?
Even though Luke (Acts) and Paul (Epistles) indicate that they expected the new Believers to be quickly or immediately able to speak in tongues; we should point out that Paul never said that only those who spoke in tongues could be saved. He does expect that most or all Believers would be able to pray in the Spirit (tongues) but it is certainly not an absolute requirement.

With 1Cor 12:31 where most of the translations still have "But earnestly desire the greater gifts", as this verse makes absolutely no sense, there has been a concerted move since 1987 and maybe earlier to change the Greek word zeloute from being seen as an indicative to an imperative where it can legitimately be rendered as "do not stop being zealously concerned about the 'greatest' gifts" or maybe "continue to be zealously concerned".

In 12:29-30 Paul omits the Offices of administrations and helps and he also omitts the Manifestations of wisdom, faith, knowledge and discernment; within the context of the congregational meeting these would undoubtedly have less value than say, healings, powers and prophecy etc. So Paul's admonition to continue to seek after the 'greater gifts/graces' now makes sense - which also includes that of tongues/interpretation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

Righttruth

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2015
4,484
341
✟154,410.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As the Holy Spirit was the one who spoke words of praise to the Father through the 120 on the Day of Pentecost and that he is still the One who speaks through the Believer today with the same words of praise, how can they be different?

You are mixing up known foreign tongue on Pentecost with unknown tongue in Corinth.


My first response to this statement can only be, why would anyone say that Paul could ever be referring to anyone but the Holy Spirit? It’s one thing to uncritically accept the traditions of the scholars of old who essentially knew very little of the Holy Spirit, be it theologically and even experientially but considering the wealth of scholarly discussion on this passage in recent decades, any notion that Paul is referring to anyone or anything but the Holy Spirit belongs to a past age.

The Holy Spirit is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. No new insight can replace spirit with Spirit because both exist.


With 1Cor 12:31 where most of the translations still have "But earnestly desire the greater gifts", as this verse makes absolutely no sense, there has been a concerted move since 1987 and maybe earlier to change the Greek word zeloute from being seen as an indicative to an imperative where it can legitimately be rendered as "do not stop being zealously concerned about the 'greatest' gifts" or maybe "continue to be zealously concerned".

More deviations can be expected with passage of time!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
You are mixing up known foreign tongue on Pentecost with unknown tongue in Corinth.




The Holy Spirit is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. No new insight can replace spirit with Spirit because both exist.
I'm a bit confused as to what you mean.




More deviations can be expected with passage of time!
Now I'm even more confused - which I grant does occur from time to time, even without good reason.
 
Upvote 0

Righttruth

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2015
4,484
341
✟154,410.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If Paul is working in complete unity with The Holy Spirit who abides in his spirit, then you would think that when he is praying with his spirit, The Holy Spirit would be intrinsically involved with it.

Yes, but that doesn't demand praying in an unknown tongue.

I don't understand what you are saying when you say that praying in tongues guarantees The Holy Spirit.

I am not. It is Biblicist's view.

I would say that if a person is genuinely praying in tongues it is guaranteed that The Holy Spirit is involved.

Which verse supports this view? Paul said that his mind will be unfruitful during this.

Paul recommended to desire a better gift than the use of tongues in the public fellowship meeting, because it is better to use prophecy rather than tongues because in a fellowship meeting it is better to say things that are understood by the others in the meeting. If a person is speaking in tongues in a meeting, then he might as well be speaking in Outer Hindustani for any understanding that he can give to the others. But when he is alone with God, then the ability to pray in tongues is the best gift he can use, because all the other gifts involve ministry to other people.

Paul meant to desire better gifts--other than unknown tongue-- whether it is used in fellowship or alone.
 
Upvote 0

Righttruth

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2015
4,484
341
✟154,410.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Sounds good to me; how about sharing a bit more about the main thrust of your last few posts.

I believe speaking in tongue or not speaking at all or simply groaning because of inability to express in words or speaking in an unknown tongue or speaking in a known tongue is between God and the person when done privately. We don't have to be bothered with it; it is none of our business!

In public that can be noticed by others, the matter is different.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Paul meant to desire better gifts--other than unknown tongue-- whether it is used in fellowship or alone.

So Paul was mistaken when he used the expression "but in the church..." Doesn't that mean that he makes a clear distinction between being along with God and being in the company of others? And what other gifts are better used in private fellowship with God?
 
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟94,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Christianity is sharing, not personal glorification!
="Righttruth, post:.....left up to ones imaginations

???
ok the last sentence of your former post causes me to make an assumption .. you're not one who practices speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit give utterance ..y/n?

and the part about personal gratification.. being edified in the holy Spirit is to be "built up" it is also a huge realm of intercession where by the holy Spirit many many things are prayed for for many many people ..things we cant possible know in the natural to pray about .things that essentially need to be prayed that the natural mind does not pray because it does not know the need to .
this even happens in the night watch ..in vision and dream ..you see all the gifts of the holy Spirit are OF the Holy Spirit they are not singular and unrelated the the other gifts.

tongues and words of knowledge ..tongues and healing and discernment of spirits and deliverance ..it's all entwined it is the SAME holy Spirit at work in us working to bring about the perfect will of God.

don't deny his work.
when a person uses the term "imagination" in a sentence about tongues.it causes me great doubt that they have ever experienced the gift ..( pray im wrong )
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟94,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
some recent tests were done lat year on brain activity while speaking in tongues .. they were surprised, thinking that with all those words there would be increase ..but what they found is the speech center of the brain settled ..it went into a state of lower activity ..the person is not forming word or sound from conscience effort.there is no predetermination . it is nothing to do with "the imaginations of the carnal mind "
 
Upvote 0

Righttruth

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2015
4,484
341
✟154,410.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So Paul was mistaken when he used the expression "but in the church..." Doesn't that mean that he makes a clear distinction between being along with God and being in the company of others? And what other gifts are better used in private fellowship with God?

When Paul recommended better gifts other than speaking in unknown tongue, he meant whether it was in private or public.

One of the best gifts God has blessed with humankind is understandable speech and art of articulation that differentiate men from beasts.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Righttruth

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2015
4,484
341
✟154,410.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
[QUOTE="Righttruth, post:.....left up to ones imaginations
???
ok the last sentence of your former post causes me to make an assumption .. you're not one who practices speaking in tongues as the Holy Spirit give utterance ..y/n?

and the part about personal gratification.. being edified in the holy Spirit is to be "built up" it is also a huge realm of intercession where by the holy Spirit many many things are prayed for for many many people ..things we cant possible know in the natural to pray about .things that essentially need to be prayed that the natural mind does not pray because it does not know the need to .
this even happens in the night watch ..in vision and dream ..you see all the gifts of the holy Spirit are OF the Holy Spirit they are not singular and unrelated the the other gifts.

tongues and words of knowledge ..tongues and healing and discernment of spirits and deliverance ..it's all entwined it is the SAME holy Spirit at work in us working to bring about the perfect will of God.

don't deny his work.
when a person uses the term "imagination" in a sentence about tongues.it causes me great doubt that they have ever experienced the gift ..( pray im wrong )[/QUOTE]

Gift when received becomes part of the receiver, and it is no longer anything to do with the giver. If you receive a knife as gift, it is your responsibility to use it beneficially. One cannot use to kill and hold the giver responsible for that action.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.