Debate: Preston/Anderson vs. Ice/Hitchcock 2nd Coming of Christ

random person · Jul 5, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Based on this response, it was the angels who were confused.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. He did not say, in this generation.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
He did not say this was to last for only 40 years.

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The angels must have been confused about this part, because we do not seem to have the testimony of anyone who saw Him return bodily to the earth in 70 AD.
Even though He was only 5' 7" tall, someone should have seen him at this local event.

How do we handle this conflict?

The angels do not seem to agree with the full-preterist interpretation.

Dispensational Futurists handle situations like this by continuing to insist their interpretation is correct, no matter what is in scripture.

Do Preterists handle conflict in the same way?

.

Christ left in the clouds, and in like manner will return in the clouds (of judgment), see Daniel 7:13-14, Matthew 24:30, and Matthew 26:64.

The "sign" in heaven is Christ seated on the throne executing judgment on Israel. That is, the destruction of Jerusalem is the VERY SIGN ITSELF that Christ is seated on the throne in heaven.

The destruction of Jerusalem is a sign.

A sign of what?

That Jesus is seated on the throne in heaven executing judgment against Jerusalem.

random person · Jul 5, 2015

random person said:
Christ left in the clouds, and in like manner will return in the clouds (of judgment), see Daniel 7:13-14, Matthew 24:30, and Matthew 26:64.

The "sign" in heaven is Christ seated on the throne executing judgment on Israel. That is, the destruction of Jerusalem is the VERY SIGN ITSELF that Christ is seated on the throne in heaven.

The destruction of Jerusalem is a sign.

A sign of what?

That Jesus is seated on the throne in heaven executing judgment against Jerusalem.

Why does Jesus tell Caiaphas that he would see Jesus seated at the right hand and coming in the clouds?

Why tell Caiaphas he would witness Christ coming in the clouds if this event is to take place 2,000 plus years in the future?

Berean777 · Jul 5, 2015

Berean777 · Jul 5, 2015

random person said:
Christ left in the clouds, and in like manner will return in the clouds (of judgment), see Daniel 7:13-14, Matthew 24:30, and Matthew 26:64.

The "sign" in heaven is Christ seated on the throne executing judgment on Israel. That is, the destruction of Jerusalem is the VERY SIGN ITSELF that Christ is seated on the throne in heaven.

The destruction of Jerusalem is a sign.

A sign of what?

That Jesus is seated on the throne in heaven executing judgment against Jerusalem.

But Jesus isn't a real person according to preterists because he ascended into heaven as a spirit and that judgement was in his memory so to speak and not directly by his conscious instruction.

Question: if you say Jesus sat on the right hand of power, then did Jesus send those armies in 70AD by his decree before his heavenly presence. Did Jesus witness the events of 70AD from Heaven. Yes/No?

Berean777 · Jul 5, 2015

random person said:
Why does Jesus tell Caiaphas that he would see Jesus seated at the right hand and coming in the clouds?

Why tell Caiaphas he would witness Christ coming in the clouds if this event is to take place 2,000 plus years in the future?

Because it doesn't take 2000 years in the future, it takes after Caiaphas died and came before the Lord for judgment. As it is written all men are destined to die once, then judgment. You said in your previous post that Jesus ascended up into heaven to sit on the right hand of power as the almighty judge.

Then in that regard when Caiaphas died, was he not brought before the Lord to be judged. Yes/No?

BABerean2 · Jul 5, 2015

random person said:
Why does Jesus tell Caiaphas that he would see Jesus seated at the right hand and coming in the clouds?

Why tell Caiaphas he would witness Christ coming in the clouds if this event is to take place 2,000 plus years in the future?

Because "all" are going to be resurrected when He returns.
Caiaphas is going to be there with the rest of us.
There will be the sheep and the goats.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This will occur at the future Second Coming of Christ.

It did not happen in 70 AD.

.

Notrash · Jul 5, 2015

What does this have to do with 2 Peter 1?
The word of the prophecy of deut 18 was made sure at Jesus baptizm and made MORE sure to Peter & friends at the transfiguration.

The prophecy of deut included the statement that those of the moaaic covt nation who would not heed the new words and authirity of the new prophet would have their lives demanded of them.

If the preliminary part of 1 Peter 2 refers to first century judgement and the 3rd chapter of 2 Peter also refers to judgement against the 'house' of God, then why would the 1st chapter be first century and the 3rd chapter be distant time period?

Do not be a dispiser of the authority of the GOOD NEWS! 2 pet 2:1-4.

New heavens & Earth were and are new physucal (but primarily spiritual) worlds from tge context of the mosaic covt world (heaven & earth). Do you still make sacrifice for sin?..... of one type or another?

If your looking for new heaven & earth, perhaps your still living in principles similar to mosaic civt ways & means.

The issue isn't who developed fulfilled preterist theology for it seems that God intended for them to be fulfilled at the time of his visitation. (See Jer 23:32ff.

Do not say "What is the burden, (unfulfilled propecy) of the lord.....but what has he spoken and what has he answered.......

The question is how did the futurist unfulfilled perspectives grow? The answer is by Ireneous and others reading the epistles as if they they where prophetic utterances rather than explanatory letters addressed ti the people of tge time of the fulfillments, and those fulfillments being mostly first century with the exceptiin being Gog & Magog being (in my understanding) second century, but still before Ireneous.

Berean777 said:
New earth and new heaven are awaiting the believer I have seen them. No man can tell me that they are an allegory and a metaphor to convey a new establishment to be vindicated. The new heavens and new earth are symbols of the afterlife to when a believer in Christ dies they are resuscitated into the heavenly body identified in scripture as Lord from Heaven. The seed must die before it germinates to that form that is awaiting it in the new heaven and the new earth. One can only dream about that place physical death is what separates a believer from receiving it.

We in this body are not Lord's from heaven. We are yet in our sinful earthy bodies and need to enter in resurrection through death and onto immortal life to be reunited with the risen Lord. Any other hope hinged on spiritual vindication of a new establishment is completely rejected by the church for the last 2000, who had been instructed by Saint Thomas.

Tell me who established preterist teachings?

It would be themselves in vast contrast to the apostles who instructed the church contrary to their belief. So which is right an establishment that has flourished to spread the gospel owing to a list of martyrs that have left a blood trail or to preterists who have no blood or testimony of how they have spread the gospel into the world for the last 2000 years.

I look at the works friend and not words, because words on their own without historic works or a track record means nothing in my books. Preterism has no track record, their only determined in their own minds to allegorise what the church for the last 2000 has taught and done by their own blood. Blood, sweat and tears is a strange expression for a preterist, because according to them, martyrs post 70AD have no function. This is a whole lot of crock.

Show me how and where preterism has bleed for Christ historically speaking?

You will not find it in any consistent manner that they have spread the gospel nor have bled for it. So why are they saying they are right?

If the Lord was with the preterists they would have converted the world by their belief system and not just some rich people who want the cake and eat it as well.

I hope you sincerely look at how desperate preterist theology has become when as of recent it has been scrutinised in a way that shows that the new world and the new heaven is a mere worldly establishment of the rich.

Thank you kindly.

Straightshot · Jul 5, 2015

"The question is how did the futurist unfulfilled perspectives grow?"

These things have always been .... the Lord's prophetic word is the same yesterday, today, and future

He does not change

Your question should be how did the various preteristic\amil\post-tribulation\replacement theologies emerge and grow .... you would do well to find out for yourself

Notrash · Jul 6, 2015

Straightshot said:
"The question is how did the futurist unfulfilled perspectives grow?"

These things have always been .... the Lord's prophetic word is the same yesterday, today, and future

He does not change

Your question should be how did the various preteristic\amil\post-tribulation\replacement theologies emerge and grow .... you would do well to find out for yourself

Wrong; read the post again and search the references given.

BUT, since you confess that the prophetic word of the lord never changes, you confess that they will never be fulfilled; or else the "prophetic word of the lord" would cease to be prophetic. You've made a "God" out of the epistle.

Again; Jer 23:32ff looked for the fulfillment of all prophecy in conjunction with the time of the coming of the way of righteousness (vs 5).

So, in keeping with the inatruction of Jer 23, may the GOOD LORD correct & rebuke you. (your position).

You didn't answer the question about 2 Pet 1:16-21 as referring to the word (voice) of the prophecy given in deut 18:15-19. (See also deut 4 or 5 where God reminds moses what they said when they were at mt sinai.)

The word/voice of the prophecy which deut 18 referred to was heard at Jesus bapjtism and made MORE SURE to Peter & friends atthe mt of transfiguration.

Peter had previously preached this topic and prophecy of warning in Acts 3:22-24. So now, @35 yrs later he is establiahing the authority to remind his first century readers of the coming judgement on the former way of a babylonian/egyptian way, to those who would not heed the new prophet (of that generation).

Reading the epistles or jesus words as if distantly prophetic is an error of hermeneutics more so than character or faith. It is an error the Ireneous employed when the romans demanded to know and have codified the tenents of the 'sect'. Ireneous was wrong in reading the epistles as if prophetic beyond their original audience and recuevers (except gog/magog being early second century)

BABerean2 · Jul 6, 2015

During his "Morning Musings" Don Preston attempts to answer the question of why the early Church is silent on the coming of Christ in 70 AD.

His first talk, the #01 version, focused on "apostacy" in the early Church.

The second talk on the subject, #02 focused on the "persecution" of the early Church.
At about 8 minutes in, Preston makes the following remark.

"Is it any little wonder that we have a gap in the history of the Church..."

And now we have another "gap" to deal with...

Silence of the Early Church on the Preterist’s Parousia #01 version…

.

#02 Version

Don Preston also attempts to get us to buy his book in these two "Morning Musings".

A "gap" and now book sales...
Is this Deja Vu ???

.

Berean777 · Jul 6, 2015

Gap theory, it almost sounds scientific.

Where to now for preterists?

To Gap or not to Gap.

BABerean2 · Jul 8, 2015

Why does Don Preston have a problem explaining why the early Church did not write anything about Christ returning in 70 AD?

These were the people who had been taught by the Apostles of Christ.

Even if there was apostasy and persecution, there was a remnant of believers which continued in the faith.
Otherwise, the faith would had been destroyed.

The early Church did not write about the return of Christ in 70 AD, because none of them saw Christ return in 70 AD, nor did they hear from anyone else who saw Jesus in 70 AD, nor did they believe Jesus returned in 70 AD, based on the teachings of the Apostles.

This is one of the greatest weaknesses of Full-Preterism.

Christ is coming back in the future to resurrect all of the dead. This did not happen in 70 AD.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

.

Berean777 · Jul 8, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Why does Don Preston have a problem explaining why the early Church did not write anything about Christ returning in 70 AD?

These were the people who had been taught by the Apostles of Christ.

Even if there was apostasy and persecution, there was a remnant of believers which continued in the faith.
Otherwise, the faith would had been destroyed.

The early Church did not write about the return of Christ in 70 AD, because none of them saw Christ return in 70 AD, nor did they hear from anyone else who saw Jesus in 70 AD, nor did they believe Jesus returned in 70 AD, based on the teachings of the Apostles.

This is one of the greatest weaknesses of Full-Preterism.

Christ is coming back in the future to resurrect all of the dead. This did not happen in 70 AD.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

.

Apparently because they all died before 70AD. If they died before 70AD then the disciples and apostles of Christ according to preterists, fell under the old covenant. Imagine that! the 1st century church according to preterists did not yet realise the New Covenant, because it came on 70AD after they had long departed.

Here is the link of the questions I have presented on another link, you will find the preterist position entertaining and also quite disconcerting to say the least.

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/thre...el-be-destroyed.7892598/page-16#post-68259038">Can The State Of Israel Be Destroyed!</a>

parousia70 · Jul 8, 2015

Berean777 said:
Question: if you say Jesus sat on the right hand of power, then did Jesus send those armies in 70AD by his decree before his heavenly presence. Did Jesus witness the events of 70AD from Heaven. Yes/No?

Answer: Yes.
The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father.

We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16).

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation.

parousia70 · Jul 8, 2015

Berean777 said:
Then in that regard when Caiaphas died, was he not brought before the Lord to be judged. Yes/No?

If you answer yes, is it your contention that people were/are brought before the Judgement seat of Christ to be Judged and Separated as Sheep/Goats BEFORE this event?:

Matthew 25:31-33
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideshis sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Berean777 · Jul 8, 2015

parousia70 said:
If you answer yes, is it your contention that people were/are brought before the Judgement seat of Christ to be Judged and Separated as Sheep/Goats BEFORE this event?:

Matthew 25:31-33
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideshis sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Yes people were brought before the Lord after he sat on the right hand of power,up not high as the almighty judge who judges the peoples of all nations. You wouldn't have the risen Lord twiddling his thumbs on that throne without the departed being immediately judged would you. The chief priest saw it after he died, Saint Stephan saw it and every eye sees it because all men are destined to die once then judgement.

This judgement happens individually to every departed, remember one is taken by death to appear before the judgement seat of Christ and the other left to continue in his/her earthly body, until he/she is also taken on a day and hour they least expect it when the thief (death) comes for them, when their time also comes to be taken.

One left and one taken, one left and one taken. This has been going on a long time and Jesus has already judged tens of millions of people, just a few more to eventually come, hehehe.

Death brings us to our maker for judgement for the works done in the body, related to sanctified faith in Christ.

Berean777 · Jul 8, 2015

parousia70 said:
Answer: Yes.
The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father.

We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16).

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation.

I agree that the Lord who is the prince of the Romans as many were coming to Christ at that time, eventually allowed the Romans to come at the time of visitation of judgement, as he witnessed it from heaven.

You are misunderstanding my position I am contending with the Preterists who say that Jesus is a spirit and this judgement was only in his memory without him needing to consciously direct or witness the historical event.

Notrash · Jul 8, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Why does Don Preston have a problem explaining why the early Church did not write anything about Christ returning in 70 AD?

These were the people who had been taught by the Apostles of Christ.

Even if there was apostasy and persecution, there was a remnant of believers which continued in the faith.
Otherwise, the faith would had been destroyed.

The early Church did not write about the return of Christ in 70 AD, because none of them saw Christ return in 70 AD, nor did they hear from anyone else who saw Jesus in 70 AD, nor did they believe Jesus returned in 70 AD, based on the teachings of the Apostles.

This is one of the greatest weaknesses of Full-Preterism.

Christ is coming back in the future to resurrect all of the dead. This did not happen in 70 AD.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

.

A huge portion of early christian writings were destroyed by the ceasars up until @ 300 AD. What survived (such as Ireneous writings) may have been permitted to survive (perhaps) because it did not create a friction with Rome.

For example, Justin Martyr wrote that many noble bretheren did not view the miklenium as literal, but we have few if any record of tgeir beliefs other than Origens principles of allegoric & symbolic meaning to other passages.

Not all the believers died before 70 AD, butmany survived with John & Barnabus being 2 examples.

I believe John may have written about his coming in 70 AD with the phrase that this was whom had come tgrough the water (flood of Noah) and the blood (the blood of his sword against the religious who persecuted the way & power of truth)

Berean777 · Jul 9, 2015

John wrote to the seven churches on the island of Patmos well after the events of 70AD. The letters was to regroup the dispersed church at the aftermath many years post 70AD. The letters addressed to every church contained a reprimand to get back onboard or else their election will be taken from them.

The reason why John conceals the destruction of Jerusalem is so that his letters are not detected by his Jewish compatriots, if they were intercepted, none would be the wiser.

The letters of John are most certainly well after 70AD, probably around 100AD where John is an old and frail man wanting to rally behind the seven churches to kick start the great commission to preach the gospel that had been smothered after the events of 70AD.

The tell tell signs of John needing to instruct the church to commence the great commission, where the women (1st century Jewish church) left of from after the original disciples and apostles had long departed.

The evidence is in John's mission to kick start the preaching once again. Scripture states YET AGAIN, meaning there must have been an initial rally that was the first century Jewish church.

Revelation 10:11
And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

It is not actually John that has done the preaching previously nor in the future to the many nations, but rather he has been instructed to instruct the seven churches that remain post 70AD to do the preaching yet again, by getting the ball rolling again.

It is also obvious that the versus prior instruct John that the seventh trumpet has not sounded and he needs to continue with this mission. So this evidence that the seventh trumpet did not sound on 70AD.

Berean777 · Jul 9, 2015

Contrary to what was believed by the original women the 1st century Jewish church that the end was imminent in their life time, including John as evidenced in his early epistles, it seems that John is being told here that the seventh trumpet hasn't yet sounded so continue on with the great commission, because there is still plenty of time.

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The expression but in the days implies a future time not yet now, because John is instructed to continue yet again with the great commission.

Debate: Preston/Anderson vs. Ice/Hitchcock 2nd Coming of Christ

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

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