Union with Rome. What Would it Take?

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The Pope returning to his conciliar role that he had prior to schism would be an awesome start! But I think some hard reforms to the liturgy in the Latin West would be in order. I think the Orthodox look at that liturgy and the skin begins to crawl!

The juridical language and legalism needs to change, but that wasn't a deal-breaker before. It's really about the role of the papacy and the filioque and how the Church functions. I think the Orthodox would need to see what THEY gain from the reunion. I'm not sure at this point they've figured out any pluses?

When I was "caucusing" with the Eastern Catholics, such nice folks, but as I went along and asked EC's what benefit there is to choosing Byzantine Catholic over Orthodox, none could tell me? I'd hear them COMPLAIN about how awful the Roman liturgy is, how much they disagree with Rome, how they have been Latinized and marginalized, but I never heard any benefit? They kept saying "unity" to me, but I didn't understand that? Unity with people who marginalize and tromp on your liturgy and try to usurp your theology over the centuries and.....??? I didn't understand it.

If you look at Florence and some of those other "moments" when the East and West were undergoing talks to reunite, it was always a doomsday scenario or some kind of major political need. With the Western NATO countries and Russia in the midst of such hostility and rhetoric and sabre-rattling, I can't imagine Orthodoxy and Catholicism doing anything? Russia controls like 65% of Orthodoxy, so having them aboard would be a must. I must say, t'aint gonna happen?

Having studied both perspectives it seems both EO and RCC have the same essential view toward salvation. The difference comes in terms of expression and the way of conceptualizing it. I see both churches as having the same essential apostolic faith, but conceptualizing it differently.

That being said, I will admit prefer the Orthodox perspective here. I also understand salvation as being a spiritual pilgrimage into the divine life and deliverance from sin and death by a synergy with the divine grace. I don't conceptualize legalistically like most western Catholics do. I'm basically a western Catholic with an eastern Catholic theology. I know most Byzantine Catholics hold theological views in most respects indistinguishable from Orthodoxy, so its not really fair to represent the ENTIRE catholic church as if it was just Latin rite.

It seems Orthodox theology is for the most part not unwelcome in the Catholic Church as a whole. Though, the issue of Papal Headship remains. In your view is that the real deal breaker here? If nothing of Orthodox theology had to change for reunion to take place, except the embrace of the Bishop of Rome as the head bishop of the church, would you as Orthodox welcome that reunion?
 
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Catherineanne

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it would take Rome repenting of her many heresies (and I say this not as an offense, but because it is true). papal infallibility, the filioque, created grace, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption of Mary before her death, Purgatory, indulgences, etc. only after those are openly rejected, can we actually start talking about union.

Aiui, the assumption of Mary before her death is not a dogma, so perhaps the list is one shorter than you imagine. Not sure about the rest. : )
 
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Cappadocious

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If nothing of Orthodox theology had to change for reunion to take place, except the embrace of the Bishop of Rome as the head bishop of the church, would you as Orthodox welcome that reunion?
Our conditions for reunion are a return from papal supremacy to papal primacy, and dealing with teachings we find heterodox. Simply allowing us to keep our teachings would not be enough, because we'd be in union with a church that teaches what see as heterodox stuff. Like the Florentine Filioque.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Our conditions for reunion are a return from papal supremacy to papal primacy, and dealing with teachings we find heterodox. Simply allowing us to keep our teachings would not be enough, because we'd be in union with a church that teaches what see as heterodox stuff. Like the Florentine Filioque.
I agree completely.
 
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Virgil the Roman Two

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Agreed. Scholasticism and the Protestant Novus Ordo would also have to be dropped. Reunion with a modernist, quasi-protestantised Novus Ordo religion, no thanks! Can't see the appeal . . . o_O



The Pope returning to his conciliar role that he had prior to schism would be an awesome start! But I think some hard reforms to the liturgy in the Latin West would be in order. I think the Orthodox look at that liturgy and the skin begins to crawl!

The juridical language and legalism needs to change, but that wasn't a deal-breaker before. It's really about the role of the papacy and the filioque and how the Church functions. I think the Orthodox would need to see what THEY gain from the reunion. I'm not sure at this point they've figured out any pluses?

When I was "caucusing" with the Eastern Catholics, such nice folks, but as I went along and asked EC's what benefit there is to choosing Byzantine Catholic over Orthodox, none could tell me? I'd hear them COMPLAIN about how awful the Roman liturgy is, how much they disagree with Rome, how they have been Latinized and marginalized, but I never heard any benefit? They kept saying "unity" to me, but I didn't understand that? Unity with people who marginalize and tromp on your liturgy and try to usurp your theology over the centuries and.....??? I didn't understand it.

If you look at Florence and some of those other "moments" when the East and West were undergoing talks to reunite, it was always a doomsday scenario or some kind of major political need. With the Western NATO countries and Russia in the midst of such hostility and rhetoric and sabre-rattling, I can't imagine Orthodoxy and Catholicism doing anything? Russia controls like 65% of Orthodoxy, so having them aboard would be a must. I must say, t'aint gonna happen?
 
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Virgil the Roman Two

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Like Gurney said, Orthodoxy has the faith and statutes unchanged from the Fathers; the Church has preserved it from all accretion, corruption, or doctrinal evolution or 'development' (i.e., really doctrinal innovation under another name). Orthodoxy would gain nothing but rather lose everything from a 'reunion' with Rome. Whereas, Rome would be returning to a pure unadulterated faith that she espoused before the sad separation circa 1000 A.D. A return to the pre-Great Schism Church for Rome is the sole path that needs embracing.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Having studied both perspectives it seems both EO and RCC have the same essential view toward salvation.

no, because Catholic councils reject that God's grace is uncreated, which is key to our understanding of salvation.

The difference comes in terms of expression and the way of conceptualizing it. I see both churches as having the same essential apostolic faith, but conceptualizing it differently.

either the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra concerning doctrine and morals, and those ex cathedra statements are above any Church Council as Vatican I defined it, or they are not. either the Spirit proceeds from the Father, or the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principle. either Mary had the merits of Christ applied to her at her conception and is born free of the stain of original sin, or she is not. these are not differing expressions of the same faith.

If nothing of Orthodox theology had to change for reunion to take place, except the embrace of the Bishop of Rome as the head bishop of the church, would you as Orthodox welcome that reunion?

if Roman theology changed, still probably not.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Aiui, the assumption of Mary before her death is not a dogma, so perhaps the list is one shorter than you imagine. Not sure about the rest. : )

no, but for us the fact that she died is in our faith. our issue is that it is up in the air and one can believe either that she was assumed before or after her death.
 
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stray bullet

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no, because Catholic councils reject that God's grace is uncreated, which is key to our understanding of salvation.



either the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra concerning doctrine and morals, and those ex cathedra statements are above any Church Council as Vatican I defined it, or they are not. either the Spirit proceeds from the Father, or the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principle. either Mary had the merits of Christ applied to her at her conception and is born free of the stain of original sin, or she is not. these are not differing expressions of the same faith.



if Roman theology changed, still probably not.

You'd make a fantastic fundamentalist of any stripe.
 
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MilesVitae

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no, because Catholic councils reject that God's grace is uncreated, which is key to our understanding of salvation.

Matt, I'm not familiar with this issue....would you mind expanding on this a little?

either the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra concerning doctrine and morals, and those ex cathedra statements are above any Church Council as Vatican I defined it,

The way you're wording that makes it sound as though Catholicism teaches the Pope can supersede what has already been defined by an ecumenical council. That is not the case, just to clarify.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Matt, I'm not familiar with this issue....would you mind expanding on this a little?



The way you're wording that makes it sound as though Catholicism teaches the Pope can supersede what has already been defined by an ecumenical council. That is not the case, just to clarify.
I actually wanted to get intothe created grace idea myself and ask a few questions, and had an idea of making another thread. I wonder if it needs its own or if it would not derail this one.
 
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The grace God gives us is an EXTENSION of His Very Self, not a mediated creation that He uses in between Himself and us. Just as our first parents walked side by side with God in the Garden and his uncreated energies (read St. Gregory Palamas for more info on this aspect) of grace kept our first parents in a state of incorruption and total joy, He shares Himself with us in extending His energies to us now in 2015. Grace is an extension of Who God is, and created grace is an un-patristic idea that God created this salvific mystery to help us, that it didn't pre-exist but rather was made.

Orthodoxy is very much of the mind that God extends His Essence of Love to us. Look at the Garden, the uncreated grace idea, the divine energies aspects, and then the final judgment when his Uncreated Light will either sooth or burn based on our orientation of heart to Him.

It may sound like semantics, and I've heard Met. Kallistos Ware say that it is, but I think in most of my feeble understandings, it is no small thing that God shares His Very Being with us vs. creating a mediated help.

Matt, I'm not familiar with this issue....would you mind expanding on this a little?



The way you're wording that makes it sound as though Catholicism teaches the Pope can supersede what has already been defined by an ecumenical council. That is not the case, just to clarify.
 
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E.C.

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I've learned about many of the historical situations that have created and exacerbated the divisions between us, yet I also see a great deal of Ecumenicalism taking place between the two churches. So I would like to ask my EO brothers and sisters one simple question. In your humble opinion, what would it take, specifically on the part of the Bishop of Rome, to restore the unity of the Apostolic church, to unite east and west together as one?
I'm going to skip the thread so far and give you the short answer: It would effectively take the Roman Catholic Church becoming Orthodox.
 
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Catherineanne

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no, but for us the fact that she died is in our faith. our issue is that it is up in the air and one can believe either that she was assumed before or after her death.

I do not know either way, but I do not regard that as being 'up in the air', any more than any other mystery of our faith. There is a truth, whether I know it or not.

If I had to choose for myself I would agree that she did die; I read somewhere that she wanted to follow her Son in this. But I tend not to choose for myself; if my church tells me that it has decided, then I would follow that decision.
 
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Catherineanne

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no, because Catholic councils reject that God's grace is uncreated, which is key to our understanding of salvation.

I am not at all familiar with this debate. My understanding, such as it is, would be that God's Grace is like his Love, Mercy and Compassion; it is part of who he is and therefore uncreated. I have never heard an Anglican statement on this matter; I will find someone to ask.
 
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prodromos

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I know most Byzantine Catholics hold theological views in most respects indistinguishable from Orthodoxy, so its not really fair to represent the ENTIRE catholic church as if it was just Latin rite.
When you understand that all the non-Latin rite Catholics combined make up less than half of 1% of the Catholic Church, I think it is a pretty fair representation.
 
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