Universal reconciliation

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Just because there are other verses that have fire in them doesn't make them a parallel to that verse. And even though Hebrews says God is a consuming fire,it doesn't tie into what it says in Mark. There is nothing in Mark that says the everlasting fire is God. There is no correlation between the verses which means your understanding is different not mine.
Well now you're just down to opinions James. And your opinion makes God ugly IMO. So I'll trust scriptures translated more consistently to the Greek, instead of the ones translated by those whose hearts have been so indoctrinated that their 'text comes from context based upon their twisted pretext'....IMO.
 
Upvote 0

James Is Back

CF's Official Locksmith
Aug 21, 2014
17,883
1,344
51
Oklahoma
✟32,480.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Well now you're just down to opinions James. And your opinion makes God ugly IMO.

No it makes God who He is. The Truth. And the whole you make God ugly,mean and terrible bit has been beaten to death by the UR and annihilation folks and it gets old really quick. It's an excuse that turns away from the truth and paints God the way they want to paint Him as some Almighty being that's all love and denies His Divine Justice.

Sorry I'll stick to the truth and not paint God as just some loving parent that has no justice or other attributes.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,575
6,063
EST
✟992,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
These verses says otherwise:

Mark 9:42-43 New King James Version (NKJV)
42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

Exactly. Jesus clearly said there was a fate worse than death.
 
  • Like
Reactions: James Is Back
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So tell me why God is meeting your "medieval torturer" definition by burning believers with fire to save them according to scripture?
Not my definition. My understanding of Hell is punitive, not redemptive. The real question should be why would anyone want to confuse people with the necessary cleansing process of believers (in order to fully approach God) with the fate of the damned who never believed??? (IOW did Moses have to remove his shoes because he did not believe?)

And we note this is a feeble attempt to ignore the torture aspect of the UR belief on the fate of the damned by supposing that such "torture" in their view is the equivalent to the purification of those bound for Heaven. Moses had to remove his shoes not because he did not believe but because he was approaching holy ground -not God fully as we would in Heaven but just Holy ground. So obviously this indicates we do need to be cleaned up prior to approaching God. To confuse that necessity of fully cleansing believers who have lived a life longing for God, cleaning them up in order for them to be able to stand face to face with their Creator; confusing that with some supposed super cleansing of people who did not leave this life longing for God is the dangerous part I spoke of.

Only in the UR view is it possible to suggest that God tortures people in the afterlife to get a positive response - IOW claiming Hell can only be redemptive -thus limiting God to only that form of punishment -when clearly He demands in the OT that we use both punitive and redemptive forms of punishment.
Why would one want to limit God to not being able to do something He demands/directs we do in this life?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Winepress777

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
497
145
68
✟8,905.00
Faith
Christian
I'm reading a book a book whose purpose is to give "three views of hell", traditional, anihilation, and universal reconciliation. My question is, " do you think universal reconciliation is heresy?

Of course.

(Mat 22:14) For many are called, but few are chosen.
(Eze 18:4) ... the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Another no "ifs ands or buts" :)
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
in general, Ultimate reconciliation does not mean God softpedals sin. For example, if all those verses that say they are tormented forever and ever are tormented for ages and ages ... to the Lord a day is like a thousand years .. I cannot fathom how long an age might last.
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
why would anyone want to confuse people with the necessary cleansing process of believers (in order to fully approach God) with the fate of the damned who never believed???
Why would anyone want to scare people with endless torture for NO UNENDING PURPOSE? Only a heart that was truly twisted could have conceived such a horrible fate for those 'claimed' to be loved by their torturer.

Only in the UR view is it possible to suggest that God tortures people in the afterlife to get a positive response - IOW claiming Hell can only be redemptive -thus limiting God to only that form of punishment -when clearly He demands in the OT that we use both punitive and redemptive forms of punishment.
And only in orthodoxy is it possible to suggest that God tortures people for ETERNITY, FOREVER, ENDLESSLY to get NO RESPONSE.

Why would one want to limit God to not being able to do something He demands/directs we do in this life?
Well how about because our view doesn't limit, but makes God the winner opposed to being a loser to Satan as you believe. Our view makes God smarter than your plan by making him an accomplice to life for all, instead of being an heart broken accomplice to being forced to eternally killing most.

1TI 2:4 Who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the
truth.
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Of course.

(Mat 22:14) For many are called, but few are chosen.
(Eze 18:4) ... the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Another no "ifs ands or buts" :)
It's a problem when you quote scriptures not knowing what they really mean. Did you know that Matt 22 isn't even talking about the chosen being unbelievers?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called/SAINTS/kletos, but few are chosen.
2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint
 
Upvote 0

Winepress777

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
497
145
68
✟8,905.00
Faith
Christian
It's a problem when you quote scriptures not knowing what they really mean. Did you know that Matt 22 isn't even talking about the chosen being unbelievers?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called/SAINTS/kletos, but few are chosen.
2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint
I know exactly what scriptures means and is talking about.
(Mat 22:14) For many are called, but few are chosen.
Your question of those scriptures don't make them any less exactly meaningful than what they say. Try not to be concerned what scriptures ISN'T talking about. Because neither am I. The fact is, Many are called. (AKA, not all are called.) Those who are, they hear and believe at first. Read the parable of the sower. You find them in churches and places of worship all over. A FEW of those called are "Chosen". Who are the Chosen you ask? Those are of course again, the "faithful" of those "believers". Only the "Chosen" of those called, who are faithful, are forever with the Lord Jesus. Read right here...

(Rev 17:14) ... for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Why would anyone want to scare people with endless torture for NO UNENDING PURPOSE? Only a heart that was truly twisted could have conceived such a horrible fate for those 'claimed' to be loved by their torturer.
Perhaps someone should look up the meaning of punitive. Hell is a separation, not made to redeem. The torture question needs to be directed at the only side here that actually has God torturing people in order to get them to love Him enough so He can stop. And that view of Hell is twisted, and in reality you just stated it is ok for God to be seen as twisted, for Him to torture people as long as it for their benefit, which is exactly what the king and the torturer in the medieval times claimed they were doing.

And only in orthodoxy is it possible to suggest that God tortures people for ETERNITY, FOREVER, ENDLESSLY to get NO RESPONSE.
God is Good. Am unclear what part of the Good abandoning the damned for eternity makes the Good a torturer. In your view of Hell the Good is right there applying torture, but that is ok as long as it benefits them. Your view justifies torture just like they did for the king in medieval times. Torture the subjects until they confess to loving the king. In the orthodox view God is absent from the damned, part of the reason they are in anguish. An absent God cannot be seen as administering the torture you imagine He does in your view of Hell.
Well how about because our view doesn't limit, but makes God the winner opposed to being a loser to Satan as you believe. Our view makes God smarter than your plan by making him an accomplice to life for all, instead of being an heart broken accomplice to being forced to eternally killing most.

1TI 2:4 Who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the
truth.
He does WILL that all be saved. How else could any orthodox claim He died for the sins of the whole world and have that mean present, past and future???
He created us to love Him with all our hearts by CHOICE, not by force and certainly not by torture. Making someone love you is not love at all. His plan for humans from the beginning was to create beings who would freely CHOOSE to love Him and share His eternal Happiness with them. Because He knew the first man would FALL, making it impossible for ANY human to share eternally with His Happiness without supernatural intervention (hint God - not a torturer). So His plan had to include what His Son would do just to make it POSSIBLE for those that would so freely choose to share in that eternal Happiness, could do so in the next life.
And while here, He made it clear that His plan was to judge us all ONE TIME to divide those who would freely choose to love Him in this life from those who do not so choose. He speaks nothing of giving the later group an extended torture to show them the error of their choice in this life.

No, nice twist and denial. Jesus did die for all, offering His Body and Blood for all. Which means it is His Will that ALL be saved, but He cannot violate our free will to do so.

To His Apostles just before He died for that all MAY be saved (not WILL be) He said specifically "many" (when He could of said all) would have their sins washed away with His Blood and body. In the orthodox view He does not force anyone by torture to accept His Love for ALL of us.

And we note you happily have God painted as a torturer as long it benefits the damned while trying to convince everyone how nice the torturer is for doing that to those poor souls.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
in general, Ultimate reconciliation does not mean God softpedals sin. For example, if all those verses that say they are tormented forever and ever are tormented for ages and ages ... to the Lord a day is like a thousand years .. I cannot fathom how long an age might last.
We get that - it is ok to see God as a torturer as along as He is torturing for the benefit of His subjects. Sounds exactly like the justification of the kings in medieval times for using torture.
 
Upvote 0

jugghead

Growing
May 25, 2015
286
286
65
Smyrna, TN
✟24,188.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Good morning Der Alter I thought you had left us, glad your back and would like to say .... I thank God for who you are .... for it is because of you that many sons will come to see the glory of the Father

and if any think this is a contradiction because we have totally different POV's it isn't

for those who have ears to hear, hear the words of Christ "ask and you shall receive" "for there is no greater love than to lay down one life for another"
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,362
7,742
Canada
✟721,286.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
We get that - it is ok to see God as a torturer as along as He is torturing for the benefit of His subjects. Sounds exactly like the justification of the kings in medieval times for using torture.

Yeah, the only plus side to Ultimate reconciliation is that when sin is purged, those being purified go free. If the whole suffering thing doesn't line up with one's theology, it tends to be either a reach for Annihilation or Universalism minus judgment.
 
Upvote 0

brixken7

Newbie
Dec 24, 2014
300
40
Arizona
✟15,660.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Perhaps someone should look up the meaning of punitive. Hell is a separation, not made to redeem. The torture question needs to be directed at the only side here that actually has God torturing people in order to get them to love Him enough so He can stop. And that view of Hell is twisted, and in reality you just stated it is ok for God to be seen as twisted, for Him to torture people as long as it for their benefit, which is exactly what the king and the torturer in the medieval times claimed they were doing.

God is Good. Am unclear what part of the Good abandoning the damned for eternity makes the Good a torturer. In your view of Hell the Good is right there applying torture, but that is ok as long as it benefits them. Your view justifies torture just like they did for the king in medieval times. Torture the subjects until they confess to loving the king. In the orthodox view God is absent from the damned, part of the reason they are in anguish. An absent God cannot be seen as administering the torture you imagine He does in your view of Hell.
He does WILL that all be saved. How else could any orthodox claim He died for the sins of the whole world and have that mean present, past and future???
He created us to love Him with all our hearts by CHOICE, not by force and certainly not by torture. Making someone love you is not love at all. His plan for humans from the beginning was to create beings who would freely CHOOSE to love Him and share His eternal Happiness with them. Because He knew the first man would FALL, making it impossible for ANY human to share eternally with His Happiness without supernatural intervention (hint God - not a torturer). So His plan had to include what His Son would do just to make it POSSIBLE for those that would so freely choose to share in that eternal Happiness, could do so in the next life.
And while here, He made it clear that His plan was to judge us all ONE TIME to divide those who would freely choose to love Him in this life from those who do not so choose. He speaks nothing of giving the later group an extended torture to show them the error of their choice in this life.

No, nice twist and denial. Jesus did die for all, offering His Body and Blood for all. Which means it is His Will that ALL be saved, but He cannot violate our free will to do so.

To His Apostles just before He died for that all MAY be saved (not WILL be) He said specifically "many" (when He could of said all) would have their sins washed away with His Blood and body. In the orthodox view He does not force anyone by torture to accept His Love for ALL of us.

And we note you happily have God painted as a torturer as long it benefits the damned while trying to convince everyone how nice the torturer is for doing that to those poor souls.

I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard the phrase, "God cannot FORCE anyone to be saved." But where does the Bible say that? Nowhere! The truth is that God not only CAN, but He will use force, the greatest force in the entire universe: His holy spirit! And with this great power he will change the hearts of everyone for He will eventually pour it out upon "all flesh" (Joel 2:28).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2KnowHim
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

James Is Back

CF's Official Locksmith
Aug 21, 2014
17,883
1,344
51
Oklahoma
✟32,480.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Luke 13:23-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
 
Upvote 0

James Is Back

CF's Official Locksmith
Aug 21, 2014
17,883
1,344
51
Oklahoma
✟32,480.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard the phrase, "God cannot FORCE anyone to be saved." But where does the Bible say that? Nowhere! The truth is that God not only CAN, but He will use force, the greatest force in the entire universe: His holy spirit! And with this great power he will change the hearts of everyone for He will eventually pour it out upon "all flesh" (Joel 2:28).

Ok so by your interpretation - God created Adam & Eve,they sinned through their own free will,sin enters the world,Christ comes and dies for the sins of man,the Holy Spirit is sent to change everyone into good little people so all will be saved thus turning us into robots.

Sorry but that interpretation is not Biblical. God does not turn man into robots.
 
Upvote 0

James Is Back

CF's Official Locksmith
Aug 21, 2014
17,883
1,344
51
Oklahoma
✟32,480.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
I wish I had a dime for every time I've heard the phrase, "God cannot FORCE anyone to be saved." But where does the Bible say that? Nowhere! The truth is that God not only CAN, but He will use force, the greatest force in the entire universe: His holy spirit! And with this great power he will change the hearts of everyone for He will eventually pour it out upon "all flesh" (Joel 2:28).

Hearts of everyone? Well what about ISIS that sure doesn't sound like their hearts are changed? What about murderers,adulterers and others that died in their sins without repentance did the Holy Spirit change their hearts?
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Try not to be concerned what scriptures ISN'T talking about. Because neither am I.
I am concerned with both 'what is' and 'what isn't'. You apparently were not aware of both or you'd have never used that verse in the context you did. Now you're waffling and simply trying to save face and getting yourself in deeper yet IMO.

The fact is, Many are called. (AKA, not all are called.) Those who are, they hear and believe at first.
Bingo, you are exactly right. So the God you believe in calls 'many' but 'not all are called' to "hear and believe" so they may go on to become 'saints/called'. And of those many who were saints, they were so only because they could "hear TO believe". Therefore those who were not called in this age could never "hear or believe". So this leaves you with a God who, never called ALL according to you, so He is now directly responsible for them going to this eternal hell you fearfully believe in so fervently.

Read the parable of the sower. You find them in churches and places of worship all over. A FEW of those called are "Chosen". Who are the Chosen you ask? Those are of course again, the "faithful" of those "believers". Only the "Chosen" of those called, who are faithful, are forever with the Lord Jesus. Read right here...(Rev 17:14) ... for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
No you read right along concerning those mentioned by you in 17:14. For they are those who are granted to sit 'on the throne with Jesus' and not be like the 'frozen chosen' who never step up, and yet are just as worthy of being in heaven and 'standing before the throne'. There are wo groups of Christians in heaven, both with white robes of righteousness from CHRIST'S work. But the truly 'chosen' ones are the overcomers who get to sit on the throne because of 'their work of faithfulness.

REV 3:21 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

REV 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

But you are off topic concerning UR with all this, so it's best to quit waffling and just move on with the topic.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Winepress777

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
497
145
68
✟8,905.00
Faith
Christian
I am concerned with both 'what is' and 'what isn't'. You apparently were not aware of both or you'd have never used that verse in the context you did. Now you're waffling and simply trying to save face and getting yourself in deeper yet IMO.


Bingo, you are exactly right. So the God you believe in calls 'many' but 'not all are called' to "hear and believe" so they may go on to become 'saints/called'. And of those many who were saints, they were so only because they could "hear TO believe". Therefore those who were not called in this age could never "hear or believe". So this leaves you with a God who, never called ALL according to you, so He is now directly responsible for them going to this eternal hell you fearfully believe in so fervently.


No you read right along concerning those mentioned by you in 17:14. For they are those who are granted to sit 'on the throne with Jesus' and not be like the 'frozen chosen' who never step up, and yet are just as worthy of being in heaven and 'standing before the throne'. There are wo groups of Christians in heaven, both with white robes of righteousness from CHRIST'S work. But the truly 'chosen' ones are the overcomers who get to sit on the throne because of 'their work of faithfulness.

REV 3:21 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

REV 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

But you are off topic concerning UR with all this, so it's best to quit waffling and just move on with the topic.
I'm sorry but I don't see anything of accuracy or relevance here. Good day
 
Upvote 0