No One Man Pastor ministry over all

Ken Rank said:

In the Hebrew Roots/Messianic movement, there have been many people who wouldn't use "Lord" because they were told by the unlearned that Lord meant "Ba'al." Interestingly it DOES... and I don't care. You see, ba'al is the HEBREW WORD for husband, and can be used as "Lord" seeing the husband is the authority or Lord of his home. God Himself even calls HIMSELF ba'al.... and I certainly don't mind sharing that when one of those unlearned come trying to correct me.

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I think you misunderstand. When I was saying the word temple can refer to even pagan temples. I am saying that when Jesus redefines the word for his use it has a different meaning. His body is the temple and believers are the temple. So the word temple has a new meaning to us. Just like the word Chruch is defined in scripture as the body of Christ and the house of God assembled or gathered together of living stones. The house of the Lord.

Also there are other words that have meaning for believers such as being born again, or born from above. In the world a person cannot go into a mothers womb and be born again. But in the spirit we can be born again, spiritually. Or things like calling Jesus the good shepherd. He is not literally a shepherd of literal sheep. Id we take words outside their spiritual meaning we gt into all sorts of confusion. God has made us kings and priest. Yet a king in the world is over others in dominance and Jesus said we are not to be as the Gentile authorities where those that are great among them are over them. But this is a spiritual meaning for now. We are not priest either in the literal sense as the OT priest or other priest in the world. I could go on about these words. But in the NT the spiritual meaning is different than the worlds meaning. This is the same for the word church or ekklessia. Believers are not a Greek ekklessia.

CryptoLutheran

You said,

"Listen, this isn't my first rodeo. You're not the first person to come guns a'blazing claiming to have "God's Truth" and denouncing the entire history of the faith as being wrong."

First of all, this is not my first "rodeo " either as you put it. and i dont come with "Guns blazing", I come with the sword drawn at times but no guns.I have met men like you many times in my walk with the Lord. But I by no means denounce the entire history of the faith. this is a false argument. You try to create a straw man argument and tear it down. Very deceptive. I by no means said this.

You also said,

"What you claim is that you are just saying "what the Bible says"; I'm not impressed. You're not the first to play that trope and you won't be the last."

So now no one can use what the bible says because of your argument . Luther himself was captive to the word of God and he did not believe in popes and counsels. His conscience was captive to the word of God, or so he said. You would rebuke Luther there. The leaders who were hearing Luther did not want him to refute or argue with them according to scripture they just wanted him to submit to their false authority and to shut him up. Sadly you seem to be on their side here

You said,

"You want to try and play the game of "just the Bible" but in truth it is, "Believe me, I have the truth."

No I quote scripture and scripture is plain enough. Peter says

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Peter 4:10,11

This verse alone rebuke your entire order. In the Lutherin religion, can you all share a word from God at any time when you gather on Sundays?. or does your man in robes or a special suit have all the power to hinder everyone from speaking? peter commanded this from the Lord and to do so would make us a good steward. Are the people in your gathering or the many Lutherin gatherings or Episcaal, or catholic, or Anglican, etc etc allows to wait on the Lord and edify one another as they are commanded to allow when they come together,

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." 1 Corinthians 14;26-38

But if a man tries to follow this command and wait on the Lord for anything revealed or a doctrine etc, and tries to speak in your gatherings or the many other religious forms such as Anglican, Lutherin, catholic, Episcopal, Greek Orthadox Baptist, etc etc, what will happen. Will one man called the pastor or reverend, or minister, or priest tell them to shut up and sit down, or will he kick them out of the gatherings or have the "so called "ushers " kick them out? if so read this warning

"I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil,..." 3 John 9,10,11

You said,

" So you'll misquote John saying "you need no man to teach you" but then play the teacher who ought to be listened to."


What? I did not misquote John. he wrote that concerning them that seduced them. These false teachers were acting as if they needed them to know the truth, John rebuked that as he would you also. These false teachers also denied the deity of Christ and other things. John uses the anointing in them as a sure bulwark against all heretics. And the way we know any truth.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." 1 John 2:26,27

Paul also uses similar words and says

"...but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." 2 Corinthians 4;2

the truth is manifest or revealed in men when it is spoken. The word of God works in those that believe. It is not my word but the word of God we are to hear. If I speak according to the word it is sound words that cannot be condemned. I seek always to speak this way. Paul also said,

"...even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God....Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." 1 Corinthians 2:11,13

You said,

"You'll condemn the ancient fathers of the Church quoting Jesus, "call no man father" but then play the teacher when Christ says, "call no one teacher"."

Again this is false. I do not condemn any men. I speak as Jesus told us to call no man father. I see errors in some of the things the so called church fathers speak, so I do not put them on equal footing as holy scripture. And a teacher is a gift not a title. its not teacher Bob, but bob a teacher. There is a difference. Jesus said call no man rabbi, or master etc. we are not to use a gift as a title of flattering title, to be over men. And I believe in the gift of teachers and apostles and evangelsit etc. But these are given from God and it is not the MAN we listen for as much as the word of God they speak and the revelation of God. It is by a manifestation of the truth we commend ourselves to every mans conscience in the sight of God.

and I don't PLAY the teacher. apostolic workers are equipped by God in the gift of teaching also.

You said,

"You'll misquote and misuse Scripture, twisting them to suit your purposes, and put yourself as the final arbiter of Christian truth because you present your mere opinion and the traditions you hold as being "just Scripture" and then accuse the Holy Spirit of your folly."

I do not twist scripture, show me where. Do not be vague in this attack upon me. I need to know exactly what you think I am twisting. I fear that it is you who do not want to face the power of the word that will shatter all mans traditions and you crumbling in the dust with them.

I marvel that you attack "just scripture" stance. if a man speak not according to the word it is because there is no light in him. The whole Catholic superstructure crumbles with just a few scriptures. David only needed a smooth stone to take down the Giant.

You said,

"You've been teaching and planting house churches for over 20 years? I don't care. If what you are teaching is contrary to Scripture and two thousand years of teaching then you have been working in vain."

What I say is not contrary to scripture. And I have not been working in vain. I have seen many wonderful saints edified and edify others and such depth and joy has been in our gatherings. It is a blessing that so many are missing in their religious bondages and dry dead systems. You are hung up on the traditions of men and the many different contradictory views of many assemblies for centuries. There is not just one tradition of men from Christ time till today , there are a multitude of different ones. You may find it helpful to read history more and see where the one man pastor role that dominates Christendom comes from. It doesn't come from the apostolic doctrine and order. Read Constantines reshaping of the church and his actions. they affected believers negatively for centuries and many Christian gatherings still suffer from them.

You said,


"I am not interested in heaping self-claimed teachers whispering doctrines of demons tickling the ears of the gullible. Scripture has sufficient warning for false teachers. I've been around the block on this many times."

I am not a false teacher. You have yet to show me even one falsehood I have spoken from scripture. I do not teach doctrines of demons either. What I speak does not tickle ears, usually men get troubled because they see the clear scriptures and then they look at their whole religious structure and they are not the same, that creates a tension in the believer and a conflict. They are challenged to follow Christ and his commands but their religous traditions of men make the word of God of no effect. And so they are in a conflict. Often they will try to justify their religious system and fight against the truth of God to their shame and confusion.

The Babylonian harlot has many harlots that come out of her and God says come out of her my people. The harlots that come out of her are similar to their mother.

You said,

"And inevitably someone is going to ask you why, if you reject all Christian tradition, why you believe the Bible?"

Again a false argument i do not reject all Christian tradition. Paul speaks of the traditions he handed down, I believe in them. I do not believe in mans traditions that make the word of God of no effect.

You said,

Because almost inevitably self-proclaimed teachers going it "the Bible alone" have never once stopped to ask themselves why there is a Bible in the first place, completely ignorant of the history of the Biblical Canon. Thinking, I suppose, that the table of contents in the front of their leather-bound Bible itself were divinely inspired."

I never said I go it "the bible alone" , again you try to create a straw man and knock it down, but it wont work. I said a few times that the anointing teaches us all things and is truth. And d so the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. and we know that the Holy scriptures were given by the same Spirit that is in every believer, so the Spirit will guide us into the Holy Scriptures. They can only be seen aright by the anointing and abiding in Christ. This is where all false doctrines of men come from, from men not abiding in the Light of Christ and going off into man made fleshly understanding and traditions of men.

You said,

"You want to circumvent the divinely established order of the Church, and establish yourself as teacher of the flock of Jesus Christ."

No I never want to circumvent the order of God. I speak of this set order many times. I speak against your man made order and traditions f men that make the word of God and his order of no effect. Paul told believers to with draw from every brother who walks disorderly and not after the traditions he handed down to them. There was a order of God for the churches and how they ought to behave themselves in the gathering of believers which is the church. here are just a few examples of this order and Paul was a wise master builder under Christ the one who is building his church. Jesus Christ builds his church not with man made strength and of bricks and mortar. But he builds his church from within every believer and as they edify (to build up as a housebuilder) one another. Ephesians 4:15,16

“For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:” (Titus 1:5, emphasis mine)

Here we see that Paul had a definite “order” for them to be in and until this order was in place he diligently sought to work towards this end. The order he and Timothy were following was led by the Spirit, and it was not mans order and fanciful ideas of mans wisdom and philosophies based upon traditions of men, but rather Gods order and commands .
The word “order” , means “epidorthoo- from 1909 and a derivative of 3717; to straighten further, i.e. (figuratively) arrange additionally:--set in order. ( Strongs comcordance dictionary)

“For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.” (Colossians 2:5)

This “order” among the Colossian church here was a spiritual order and Paul was able to behold it in spirit. This is Gods order, and it was said to be“in Christ” . This order was not mans order and it is often not understood by man outside the Spirit..

Right after this verse Paul says,

“As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him” ( Colossians 2:6)

This shows us again that this order is according to our walk in Christ and how we ought to walk. He warns them in this chapter of the danger of going away from this and following mans order as well, in Colossians 2:8. All these things apply to our daily life and as we gather in Christ. For there is never a time when we are not to walk in Christ.

Churches must behave in a certain way,

“ But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)

Clearly, Paul speaks of an order here and this is how they “ought to behave” themselves in the church. How believers ought to behave themselves is given by the Spirit of God, and as we walk in Christ and his anointing. God has worked in men like Paul and Timothy and others to speak and teach of this order to the churches. And one of the reasons for this is so that believers are not tossed about by every false doctrine and order of men that create disorder in the body and hinder Gods Spirit in the church gatherings. To cut off the ministry of Christ the head in every joint as he seeks to supply the body, is very wrong and spiritually dangerous. Yet how often is the Spirit quenched? And this is one reason why such order needs to be set in the churches, which allows none to quench the spirit or to hinder the body ministry of Christ to the body.

“Let all things be done decently and in order.” (1 Corinthians 14:40)

Paul has just given commandments of God for the church order in this chapter (1 Corinthians 14:26-37) and he seals these words with this “order” again and this order is not mans order as Paul said a few verses previous,

“If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant” (1 Corinthians 14:36,38)

“Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” ( 2 Thessalonians 2:15)

“Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you” (1 Corinthians 11:2)

Notice Paul said, they remembered him on “all things” . These “all things” would have included the order from God in church meetings, which he does speak of in the letter many times. Holding the traditions was not an option either.


You said

"No. No. This game has been played out a thousand times before, and will play out a thousand times after."

I am buy no means playing a game. maybe to you it is a game but not to me. Jesus is about to spew many out of his mouth who do not want to let him into them and to have him participate with them in their gatherings. They think they are rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing.

And what has played out many times before is Godly men warning people for their false religious views and telling them Gods truth. usually these men get persecuted and hated for doing so. i think Of isaih and Jeremiah, the no name prophet who cried against the false religious altar and order. Elijah, John the baptist, Jesus, Paul, Stephen, many reformers and believers all through history. Just imagine if you were in Isreal when Isaiah cried this to you? How would you react to him?

"When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood." Isaiah 1:12-15

You said,

"Christ's Word stands triumphant, and your words will pass away.

I am born again by the word of God and i will not pass away. The truth I speak is from the Lord and according to scripture. It will not pass away. As surely as Jesus said he will build his church and the gates and religious bondage will prevail.

You said,

"I will stand upon the Word of God, not the follies of men."

I see you as a man who is on a large old sinking ship, with his arms crossed and a big frown on his forehead in a huff. And I come by with others in the fellowship of the believers and say come over come!!, and you say "NO, in a defiant tone I will go down with this ship."

sad really, I pray the Lord will help you. Consider what I say , and get past your false judgement of me and who knows what the Lord can do. But I fear that there would be many doctrinal issues I would have to address first with you. But i am always willing, usually some arent.

ViaCrucis said:

Oh, of course.

All false teachers want to pretend that they are just speaking what Scripture says, but in fact want an audience of ears to tickle with their whispers and folly.

Your kool-aid continues to be refused.

-CryptoLutheran

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Its interesting I use scripture and you use church fathers so called and man made traditions that came in after Constantine and the catholic church


you seem to undermine the use of scripture. thats a false teacher who does that

ViaCrucis said:

My use of Ignatius was to point out someone who was alive when the apostles were around and who would have known their teaching much more intimately than you or I.

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No, if he speaks different than Paul, we must follow the word of God through Paul. Around the time when the first apostles were dying out we read in the church in Ephesis in revelation that there were false apostles around at that time, and this seemed to start early. i am not saying Ignatious was a false apostle. But he did say some heretical things like the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Jesus.

ViaCrucis said:

Also, let's be honest, it wouldn't matter how much Scripture I provide--you'd shoot it down without bothering to even take anything I said or my use of Scripture seriously.

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Again, you assume to much

ViaCrucis said:

Would you like Scripture to show that there are bishops and presbyters?

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no I already know there were overseers who were the elders. And there was groups of elders also. In fact Pauls order was to recognize elders (plural) in every church (singular) . Never one man over all, or one overseer. The function of elders who oversee and exhort the gainsayers and set in order things that are away from Gods order, is the main issue. What they do and do not do. They also do not hinder every member of the body from ministering to one another as we see Peter , who was also an elder and overseer 1 Peter 5:1 he said that every man can minister the gift and he expected any man to be able to speak and to be a good steward of the manifold grace of God. Peter understood this truth as well as Paul 1 Cor 14 etc Paul even said,"to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:..." Romans 12:3-7

ViaCrucis said:

"And now I know that none of you (the presbyters of Ephesus), among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom, will ever see my face again. Therefore I declare to you this day that I am not responsible for the blood of any of you, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you bishops, to shepherd the church of God that He obtained with the blood of His own Son." - Acts 20:25-28

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No the word should be "feed" the church, not "shepherd. They are two different words. 1 Peter 5 also says feed not shepherd. Not pasturing or pastors only. Peter was an apostle and an elder overseer in 1 Peter 5.


"What should be done then, my friends? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If anyone speaks a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let them be silent in church and speak to themselves and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to someone else sitting nearby, let the first person be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets, for God is not a God of disorder but of peace." - 1 Corinthians 14:26-33

ViaCrucis said:

"Ah!" you exclaim, "see, Paul has just laid down how a church service is supposed to look like!"

To which I would respond, no he hasn't. He has rebuked the Corinthians for their disorderliness and has told them to be orderly not disorderly. He has not laid down an order of worship, but an exhortation to orderliness.

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wrong again, and a classic error. Paul said that there was problems yes. But he still said after mentioning different gifts and ministry such as Psalms, doctrines, tongues, interpretations, revelations etc. then he says, "Let all things be done unto edifying" he still says LET ALL THIS BE DONE. There s no way around this. Then after that he says if anything is revealed to another that sitteth by you may all prophesy one by one. Another sharp rebuke to your twisting of this section. To sum it up Paul says that if any man thinks himself a prophet or spiritual he should acknowledge that what Paul wrote was the commandments of the Lord. If they dont, they are ignorant and not to be received. So if anyone came to your gatherings and had been there for a few months or years and was to see this command to allow God to move in ministry among them and to wait for revelation, would your mans order allow this to happen every time you gather? I think the answer is no, and then what would you and the one man over all say when a brother said these verses to you and said we are all allowed to edify one another under the command of God and peter says this also in 1 Peter 4:10,11 and many other verses. ? if they try not quench the spirit and hinder this they fight against God and Paul would say they are ignorant. And we don't listen ignorant men.

and no the order or set order is to allow God to move freely in the body, when everyone was speaking at one time that was not allowing God to move in His order. Paul did not direct them to mans order or orderliness as you put it. Paul said at times to set in order things that are wanting in the church, and he said the rest i will set in order when i come to the Corinthians in another place.

ViaCrucis said:

So I'll end this post with this:.

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so far you have made no valid points only introduced more confusion and trapped yourself in your interpretations. And by the way you were wrong i did read all the verses you brought.

ViaCrucis said:

Are you going to accept what I've said since I have spoken to you only the word of God? Or are you going to disagree?

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I own the scriptures very clearly and they speak to my case not yours. As I have shown

ViaCrucis said:

Should I accuse you, if you disagree with me, of disagreeing with the word of God? How about I condemn you for following the traditions of men when you inevitably reject what I've written here--though I have provided plenty of Scripture for your consideration.

We both know how you will respond--you will accuse me of not knowing the Scriptures, of not listening to the Holy Spirit, and that to "REALLY" understand the word of God i need to have the confirmation in my heart from the Holy Spirit--which naturally--you have but I do not. And thus you are right and I am wrong, not on the basis of Scripture alone, but on the basis of your word against mine.

So has this been a fruitful exchange? Has Scripture won you over to my position? Of course it hasn't. You will stick to your interpretations and opinions and, with your heels dug into the sand, exclaim that you don't have an interpretation or opinion but that you merely are saying what Scripture says and that the Holy Spirit confirms it in you because you say so (oh, my bad, because you say the Bible says so).

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you have brought now scriptures to justify your position. I already agree in elder who are overseers and they may have one of the five fold gifts ( not just pastors) and I showed you clearly that every believer can share as God leads and even prophets and they are to be judged by others not just the Bishop or one man. You seem to stand not on the apostolic doctrine and order commanded by God but more so on tradition and yes like Iraneous and others after the apostles. Like I said read the history around 325 and on about Constantine and the following confusion that came from him. This affected the church greatly and not in a good way.

and like I said before

I see you as a man who is on a large old sinking ship, with his arms crossed and a big frown on his forehead in a huff. And I come by with others in the fellowship of the believers and say come over come!!, and you say "NO, in a defiant tone I will go down with this ship."

the best way to discuss scripture is to stick with one section at a time perhaps. This might be easier. Like 1 Peter 4:10,11, where Peter commands believers to be good stewards by using the gifts they are given with one another, and he says that any can do this. This corrects the one leader over all mindset who doesn't allow others to speak as God leads, or who they all have to get the approval of if they do speak.

also what is your definition of a Lord over others, who has dominion over them?

-CryptoLutheran[/QUOTE]

ViaCrucis said:

Oh, of course.

All false teachers want to pretend that they are just speaking what Scripture says, but in fact want an audience of ears to tickle with their whispers and folly.

Your kool-aid continues to be refused.

-CryptoLutheran

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how do you understand

1 John 2:26,27


"
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."


this is a good place to start

I am eager to hear your understanding of this section.

mikedsjr said:

Am I to take your words over Scripture? Since you just posted these words and nothing in them is a Scriptural reference? There is absolutely nothing wrong with quoting an early church father. The odds are great that you hold to Trinitarian theology and the word is not in Scripture.

There is nothing wrong with knowing what early church fathers taught and quote them. They are the ones helped keep the Christian Scriptures going to today. Modern Christians should be willing to learn about the early church fathers and their writings. That is how I have learned to defend against certain Catholic doctrines.

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a believer can speaks words in faith as long as they are grounded in the truth of God and if according to and not contradictory to the Holy scriptures. Believers must have "sound words" that cannot be condemned. The most sound words are from scripture.

But when I rebuke man made traditions and rudiments of the world and commandments of men I have scripture behind those words.

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." ( Colossians 2:8)

and

"Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." Tituis 1:13,14)

the so called "church fathers" may have had some good things to say but they also had some errors and Jesus said call no man father. Perhaps not just rebuking the catholic father role, but also the so called "church fathers". Ignatious talked of the Eucharist as the flesh and blood of Christ. Do you promote that so called Church father"?

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
You are talking about not allowing a lot of things because they're not mentioned in Scripture. Neither are computers; that's my point.
Jesus said "go into the world and make disciples", he didn't specifically say we could witness/reach people over the internet. Yet it is a wonderful tool for doing just that. Worship services, song leaders, gathering together in one building to praise and worship God are also tools, some of which are taught in Scripture.
No, you misunderstand the things I am speaking about and you are far from the truth in this matter.

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I am talking about Gods commands to the church and God's order in all churches, yes "commands", not cultures of the day. Church practice as commanded by God for the church. Paul would say things like ,

"...when ye come together, every one of you hath [not just a man called the pastor over all] a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying [if this is not allowed to happen then they quench the spirit and hinder God's order and working in the body and this is very serious, they just play church then no matter what good things they think they have laodicea thought they were rich and increased with goods and had need of nothing also].27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace [all can have a revelation of anything God gives them which is not allowed in most assemblies today who follow mans order].31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.33 For God is not the author of confusion [if Gods order was different in every church that would be confusion], but of peace, as in all churches of the saints [this was for all the churches as Paul was directed, not just for the Corinthians and so for today as well]....37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord [The Lords commandments are very serious and you make them nothing as if they are just made up ideas of man that I speak].38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant...40 Let all things be done decently and in order.[this order is God's order not mans, for it is God that works in every part of the body to effectually work and give gifts and revelation as they wait on him Romans 12 1 Peter 4:10,11, 1 Cor 12 etc]" 1 Cor 14;26-32,37,38, 40)

And since when are the "commandments of the Lord" not very serious. if anything believers do in their gatherings hinders this order of God and the body life and function under Christ headship we must reject it and warn of it and let it fall to the ground. No matter how right it may seem to us. Gods way is always best. Sometimes even the so called good may be the enemy of the best. For example when the early church was being persecuted for such a long time from Nero to Diocletian. The believers must have sought some relief. The last ten years almost whipped them out. Then Comes Constantine and the believers are not under the persecution and can come out of hiding and be a high tower in the world. Constantine built the large religious structures patterned after pagan temples and set priest over very palace and paid them, and so the church was silenced by this man made order. Gods commands were not followed and all were not free to minister. The devil silenced the church in ministry among themselves and this was a master blow by the enemy to stop the body of Christ from functioning properly. These things are and were serious. Yet, many of the the believers may have thought like you do, that they still had some good things they could hear scripture meet in large places and see eachother and they were not being persecuted so that is good. And it was a way that seems right unto a a man but the end is the way of death, death to the body ministry and priesthood of all believers, death to the functioning of the church under Christ headship, death to the gifts in operation freely etc. The so called good that they may have seen was the enemy of Gods best and true way. And God had commanded that these freedoms be allowed to happen. But they did not and still are not allowed,. And when we examine what stands in the way of Christ working among us as the church functions in him. We see many of the things i pointed ot. Like one man pastor over all and church buildings the way they are set up, song leaders, programs etc etc.
First, we start with the truth and the body functioning under Christ headship, then we understand God's order among us and we can then see whatever comes along and judge it by that truth. For example if we know the true gospel 1 Cor 15:1-5, we dont have to see every false gospel mentioned in scripture to judge them by. We can try it against the revealed scriptural gospel and see if it is true. if not we should reject it. The same goes for Gods order and set order in the church and how we ought to behave ourself. if we see the true order and Christ as the head building his Church from inside believers, and then we see men set up a religious building ( patterned after pagan temples) and they call that a church and act as if that is the church Christ is building we can safely reject this.

“... which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4:15,16)
If Christ is not allowed to be the head and work effectually in every part of the body when gathered , then they just play church create a dyusfunctional body, have a religious show and form without power and Christ stands outside knocking wanting to come INTO them and sup (communion) with them. The word communion means to participate with. This participation is how all live and ministry and correction and guidance is given to the body. But instead men trust in an eloquent leader over all and the body ministry in Christ is hindered and the spirit quneched,

"...Quench not the Spirit...." 1 The 5:19

there was a set order in the churches and how they ought to behave. Just because some dont see this order doesnt mean its not there. here are some examples,

"“For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:” (Titus 1:5)

Here we see that Paul had a definite “order” for them to be in and until this order was in place he diligently sought to work towards this end. The order he and Titus were following was led by the Spirit, and it was not mans order and fanciful ideas of mans wisdom and philosophies based upon traditions of men, but rather Gods order and commands .
The word “order” , means “epidorthoo- from 1909 and a derivative of 3717; to straighten further, i.e. (figuratively) arrange additionally:--set in order. ( Strongs comcordance dictionary)

“For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.” (Colossians 2:5)

This “order” among the Colossian church here was a spiritual order and Paul was able to behold it in spirit. This is Gods order, and it was said to be“in Christ” . This order was not mans order and it is often not understood by man outside the Spirit..

Right after this verse Paul says,

“As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him” ( Colossians 2:6)

This shows us again that this order is according to our walk in Christ and how we ought to walk. He warns them in this chapter of the danger of going away from this and following mans order as well, in Colossians 2:8. All these things apply to our daily life and as we gather in Christ. For there is never a time when we are not to walk in Christ.

Churches must behave in a certain way,

“ But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)

Clearly, Paul speaks of an order here and this is how they “ought to behave” themselves in the church. How believers ought to behave themselves is given by the Spirit of God, and as we walk in Christ and his anointing.

“Let all things be done decently and in order.” (1 Corinthians 14:40)
This is God's order not man's.

“And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.” (1 Corinthians 11:34)
and do you still say these things are not important and Gods cmmands for the church through Paul and others?

“Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.” (1 Corinthians 16:1)
Do we believe that Paul was led by the Spirit to give such orders, and in what he said and did or was he just doing his own thing and following his own orders and giving others his own direction? About this Paul said,

10. “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1 Corinthians 11:1)

Notice here that Paul did not even direct men to follow him directly, but only as he followed Christ. He then went on in the chapter to praise them for keeping the ordinances (or traditions, patterns) as he handed them down to them (1 Corinthians 11:2).

11. “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” ( 2 Thessalonians 2:15)

12. “Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you” (1 Corinthians 11:2)

Notice Paul said, they remembered him on “all things” . These “all things” would have included the order from God in church meetings, which he does speak of in the letter many times. Holding the traditions was no option either.

“For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.” (1 Corinthians 4:17)
Again we see that this order Paul had as he followed Christ was what he taught “everywhere” in “every church”. Yes, what he said here related many teachings in the christian walk and not just church gatherings, but it also related to church gatherings as well and these were the same in every church as we read already. Pauls “ways which be in Christ”, are the order of God.

Paul also speaks of Christ in him as a witness all he said and did he said .

18. “Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.” (Philippians 4:9)
This would also include the way he was led to set in order church gatherings, all of which he spoke to churches many times
But mans traditions make Gods order and word of no effect. Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of his day for this also, and yes this was an important thing, no a small matter. paul also warned about the traditions and commandments of men Colosians 2:8 etc)

“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. “ (Mark 7:13)

When the word of God is made of no effect we are not able to live and move and walk in that word. And the effects of that word are hindered. Part of Gods word to believers and His order was for them to “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:16). But this word is will not have effect of we do not Let this happen, and if instead we are drawn to traditions of men.

Paul sought to “set in order” (Titus 1:5) all things in every church as God led him to do so. He knew that through Gods leading the church becomes the witness of the body of Christ to the world and manifest the diversities of ministry and functions in the the body of believers when they gather together. If God’s order is set, Christ is able to work “effectually in the measure of every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love (Eph. 4:16). If Gods order is set, Christ leads as the head of the church and enables the body to be equipped for their witness to the world through Him. Therefore, anything that would hinder this, is against Gods order and affects the witness of the body of Christ to the world. But to “set in order” should be the goal of believers who should recognize that without this set order God s work is affected among us.
Mans order on the other hand, does not have Gods “set order” nor do many allow Christ to work effectually in the measure of every part of the body when they gather, they usually have one man or a few that take over the entire meeting where noone is allowed to edify one another. Mans order quenches the spirit and hinders Gods work by not allowing Christ to work in each part. This happens because men are led away from the Spirit and Gods leading and into their own natural understanding, forms, human wisdom, philosophies and rudiments of the world which are not after Christ (Colossians 2:8-10). This order of man is in many churches today and seen everywhere, which often often makes the word of God of no effect by their traditions. A false order creates confusion and a dysfunctional body with weaknesss and hinderances in many areas. The primary danger however, is that Christ is not able to work effectuallty in the body as the head in many of these gatherings today.
God’s set order is not a detailed moment by moment program as we see many churches have today, but rather principles and commands to allow freedom for God to move among us and is defined by certain aspects and parameters to allow this freedom in the body. Gods order in part, is his arranging of our lives and ministry, as we are led by the Spirit.

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
Jesus and the disciples were Jews, and their worship was influenced by, or modelled on, Jewish worship.

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What Jesus was influenced by the Jewish worship? Jesus is God he doesnt follow man men and he said ,

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." (John 4:23)

The Old testament worship and the new testament worship are different. Yes men could still worship God in their hearts in the OT. But a religious form was also set up in the temple with sacrifices priest songs etc. The NT church that Christ is building he builds from within as every believer lets the word of Christ dwell in them richly Col 3;16. etc

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
What God wants from us is that we believe in his Son, trust him for salvation, are born again, filled with his Spirit, use the gifts his Spirit has given us to serve him, tell others about him and worship him in Spirit and in truth.

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I already showed you what God wants for believers when they gather together. And his commands for such things. God commands that believers allow Him to move freely among them and to wait on him for all gifts and ministries. (1 Cor 14;6-38, 1 peter 4;10,11, Romans 12, 1 Cor 12, Col 3;16 Ephesians 4;10-17, etc ). Paul said that those who do not acknowledge the commands of God for the church are "ignorant" or not known or to be recieved. They themselves will be ignored and we don't listen to ignorant men or women 1 Cor 14;37,38. Jesus said if we love him we will keep His commandments.

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
He doesn't command that we can only worship him in our own homes with 10/20/30 other believers, all crammed in together and cut off from the rest of the body of Christ.

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Yet God commands that all be allowed to edify eachother and minister as he leads them. if the large building hinder this with 2000 people gathered. it will be hard if not impossible to allow every one to have in this setting. Gods wisdom is to gather in smaller meetings and he led the apostles to plant churches by his command to them in homes as we see clearly in scripture. Unless you want to say that the apostles were not following Christ in this and they just made up their own ideas? Jesus even from the start showed the apostles how to plant churches when he said,

"11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you." (Matthew 10:11-13)

So Jesus directed them to homes early on. Jesus also told the disciples where to met on Pentecost. It was in the upper room of a house. Again, the Lord directed them to go there Acts 2.

And here are just a few verses about the pattern we see the apostles using to plant chuches. Note that these letters were written some 60 or more years after Christ death, showing that they still met in homes that long after. And everything we are directed to do in scriputre is not always related to salvation. But many things can indirectly affect others and even salvation if God is not working in the gathering as he commands. Do you think the apostles did these things by their own commands?, or God's?

“Likewise greet the church that is in their house.” (Romans 16:5)

“...Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house” (1 Corinthians 16:19)

“Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. “ (Colossians 4:15)

“And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house” (Philemon 1:2)

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
A building is an outward thing - a device which enables Christians to be together

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No, even if people meet in a large building or a house that does not mean that enables them to be together. the unity in the Spirit is when Christ is working effectually in every part. The together part is in the spirit not by just being in a building. And if they are are just sitting in a large pagan type restructured building made for believers to sit in and watch the show at the front given by the paid professional exalted on a stage where all face the back of eachothers heads. This does not provoke them to love and good works in the edifying of eachother. This cuts off and hinders body ministry and Christ working in the church. yet they often, as you do think they are rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing. yet Christ is often standing outside knocking and wanting to come into them and sup with them. You may ask how can I make that judgement about a church . Well i know Gods commands in this area and how we ought to behave ourself in the church and when i see men in disorder and mans order i know that they are hindering Christ from freely working effectually in every part of the body as we are told he seeks to do.

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
As I have said, it can also be a witness to the community - non Christians know where to go to find comfort, hope, hold their funeral and baptism services etc.

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This is your own ideas and not scriptural. And you said these religious Babylonian temple type structures (unbiblically called churches) are where UNBELIEVERS can go to have their funerals and baptismal services??? let the dead bury their dead follow Christ way and there is no baptism for unbelievers.

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
It's not wrong to have one, you haven't shown any Scriptures which prove otherwise and I really don't know why you are getting so worked up about it all.

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As I said, if it doesn't suit you; don't do it.

yes it is wrong , first of all to have a man mad building of brick and mortar and call it "a church". he church is the body of Christ made of living stones a spiritual house, never is it a man made building of brick and mortar made by man. This is a lie to say so. And I am sure thatyou agree liars are not in a good place with God. Also the very so called 'church buildings and "churches made by man, hinder and quench the spirit in the real church 9 the body of Christ) and create a dysfunctional body.spiritually dangerous, hindering to the body of Christ and Christ headship, creates a dysfunctional body, cuts off body ministry and the gifts from freely functioning, fights against the commands of God, sets up men as heads of the church in dominant exalted roles over others, creates schisms in the body of Christ at large and quenches the spirit in the gatherings in many ways, makes the word of God of no effect by their traditions, hinders the family environment of the body of Christ, and the fellowship in the breaking of bread, and many other dangers. And you say we should not get "so worked up about it". Paul did when he saw mand order hindering Christ and peter wrote about this important issue also 1 Peter 4;10,11

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
Yes because he claimed to fulfil prophecy and then he said that prophets are often welcomed by foreigners but not welcomed in their home town. They didn't try to kill him because he had gone into a building to worship God - because that's what they were doing too.

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this is before the New testament had happened. they were still under the law and the places they met Jesus used as a means to evangelize or speak to them. But the new testament church met in their homes around Christ in the midst this can easily be shown all through the pattern they followed in the NT and the commands of God for the freedom of the body to minister under Christ headship. .

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
1. What does that matter?
2. That's judgemental - you don't know how people prepare their sermons; how much time they spend in prayer and how they deliver them.
3. God can work/speak through anyone - sermon or not; read or delivered by heart.

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A sermon prepared by man and set in a time slot on a man made program where he reads the words every week , also hinders the body ministry, The believers are silent in the so called pews and expect the one man that they pay to do all the ministry and he arranges and reads other books and puts together words that he is sharing with them. This is not as all wait on the Lord for teaching and ministry Romans 12 1 Cor 14 1 peter 4;10,11, etc. yes some messages men give are helpful and scriptural. But he was never mean to dominate over all by his pre arranged written messages to the body. If it hinders the commands of God and the free ministry of every joint as Christ work in them, then it is not right. we never read of the early church doing this in their gatherings. they spoke form revelation and urgency and from the gifts of God he gave them. yes some who may write a few verses and thoughts they had revealed to them in the week can share this if God leads. But to dominate over all by their "sermons:" every week is not the order of God.
As far as being judgmental. That is a whole different thread and too long to address that. But believers are to judge all things in spiritual judgement. We are to judge righteous judgement. Paul even says about the Corinthinas and the sin in the gatherings that he has judged already concerning him that hath done this deed. 1 Cor 5. And Paul said let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. We are to judge and discern all things and prove all things and try the spirits etc, So if we know the order of God and see men hindering that order by their traditions and commandments of men, we can judge it according to scripture. God gives believers mighty weapons in the spirit to tear down strongholds. These strongholds have bound up believers for a long time.

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
Supposing it helps people to worship God, or find him, and faith, in the first place? You berate people for doing these things, yet you refuse to respond to any comments/testimonies where people have said they are helpful and enable us to worship God.

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This is always a excuse for people to remain in mans traditions and order. they say well so and so heard the word of God when our pastor was reading and that is good so why say anything else. As I was saying good can often be enemy of the best. And for example God spoke through a donkey, or an ass, in the Ot. Does that mean we are suppose to take an ass and set him in the meeting and wait for God to speak? No. God can work in many situations to reach people. But what i am talking about is the body life and ministry under Christ headship that we are commanded to have. The traditions of man make the word of god of no effect. Jesus rebuked the pharisees for their traditions also. But yes if they read the scriptures and others heard them that was not wrong. i am not saying that there are not many believers in these religious forms there are multitudes. But even God tells his own people to come out of Babylon the great Mother of harlots.

Think of the story of when Gods people were taken captive to Babylon, they also took the holy vessels there and they had synagogues set up eventually etc. When the time to leave Babylon was come only a small group left. they didn't all go and help rebuild on the true ground of promise. Why didn't they all go? they may have been comfortable and they could have said as you do. Well, we have the reading of scripture and the holy vessels here still and people can hear Gods word herein our syagogues etc. But No, that was not Gods plan and they were not n the ground of promise. Similar Gods plan and order for the churches , and His command, is as he has shown. But many have been drawn into the babylonian type religious form that took root in a great way in Rome with Constantine. They have been captured in these religious forms . I feel like God is saying for all to come out of them and to those who hold them captive they must let God;'s people go to wait and serve him and to allow Christ to work effectually in every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Part 2 continued

Strong in Him said: ↑
How do you know?
What evidence have you got for saying that Christians who worship all together in one building, have worship leaders, orders of service and listen to sermons are keeping the Lord Jesus out? That is wrong, as well as ridiculous.

I have been showing you just some of the evidence. the full amount is overwhelming to type here. But all we need to know is the order of God and his commands for the church and how they ought to behave themselves when gathered and the set order we see in scripture. If men go away from this then it is wrong and hurtful to the body.
but specifially how do i know if a gathering may be in the similar judgement that Jesus says to laodicea. Well, one of the keys there is that he is outside of their gathering. He is not in the center ministering and participating in them and among them. We know this because he says so in revelation 3. He wants to come into them and sup with them. The sup is the meal with them. This is the communion of the saints. We being many are one bread and we are all partakers of that one bread. This communion is Christ participation with us. This is the same direction Paul wrote of for the churches ( as the Spirit of God revealed it to him) Paul said they are to let the word of Christ dwell in them richly and from that they are able to teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER etc. Paul also told the church at Ephesus that God gave gifts to men, apostle, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teacher, for the edifying of the body. if this is not allowed to happen and if Christ who is the head is not allowed to work effectually in every part to edify the body. they Christ is not in the midst and he will be outside their religious form without power. They will basically play church, not be the church. So when i see any assembly that does not allow body ministry under Christ headship freely every time they gather and they have many traditions set in place that hinder the body i see the dangers of Christ being outside thier gatherings and knocking. Jesus said he would spew them out of his mouth, that is serious and worth consideration. yes they had sin among them and they had no spiritual vision and they were naked, blind and wretched. But if Christ is allowed to edify through the body he will use every part to address all issues. But instead we have a one man ministry and a silent body looking at the back of eachothers heads. You may say but we are so rich and increased with goods we read scripture and people get saved and we have all sorts of good programs etc we have need of nothing. That is what the Laodicean church said. The word Laodicean", means what the people want. This is the problem today, the religious show and entertainment and large temple structures of beauty etc etc and to be able to do what they want is what we see all over today.

Part 3

for StonginHim

God has often rebuked men's false religious forms, seen in the OT we see this. Crying against the false religious form and altar s of men, exposing the dry forms men get caught in etc. Remember this story? in 1 Kings 12 about Jeroboam, who made a false religious worship similar but false,

"32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar" 1 Kings 12:32

now, what if some said well its similar and some good things may come etc. NO it was wrong and God sent a prophet to cry against it. This was a sin to follow his false worship and order 1 kings 12;30. It was not Gods order.

God sent a man to cry against the false religious order and the altar of Jeroboam

"And he cried against the altar in the word of the Lord.." 1 kings 13;2

God is concerned that his people follow his order not false religion and mans order.

We see also when the ark of the covenant was put on the back of a philistine cart that judgement came to Uzah when he touched it. This is because they did not follow Gods order. But we see a spiritual lesson there for us also. The ark , typifies Christ made of gold and wood. His divinity and humanity. And no man was to touch it as they carried it on the shoulders of the Levites. This is like Christ as the head and the Levites are the body of Christ. Christ is to be presented to the world as the head of the body and with the Levites. He is not to be presented to the world on the back of a man made religious form, like the philistine cart.

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
Because they were lukewarm Christians, NOT because they all met in a big building and listened to sermons.

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But you miss the point, Jesus was not in the midst working among them. They may have been lukewarm because they did not allow Christ to work in the body, instead they let one man do it all and listend to eloquent sermons and excellency of speech put together often times by mans wisdom. Instead of waiting on the Lord for all things. Remember they think every thing is ok and they have need of nothing.

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
No, that's the interpretation you have put upon it. For some reason you have decided that that verse of Scripture backs up, illustrates and confirms your argument. It doesn't.

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If Christ is outside knocking, that shows that he is not inside working and participating. He wants to come into them and sup with them. What do you think the supper is, it is a communion with us. The word communion means,"participation, intercourse, partaking, fellowship . So it is not just my interpretation. The very word laodicea means "the rights of the people, or what the people want.

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
How do you know that Christ isn't there? How do you know how many people meet with God on a Sunday morning, learn from him, are filled again with his Spirit and are helped, challenged and re-energised by meeting him?

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I didnt say there are not many believers in such places, there are. But even God tells his people to come out of things that are not right. he tells His people to come out of Babylon the great Mother of harlots. Even as Gods people were in literal babylon in the OT he told them to come out. Paul says that even if a brother walks DISORDERLY we are to withdraw from them

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."

So if Paul wrote the commandments of God and Gods order set for the churches and they act disorderly and not allow this and set up one man over all quenching the spirit. Then they are disorderly and we should withdraw from them, even if they are brothers as Paul said.

BobRyan said:

Strong in Him said: ↑
I notice you still haven't answered the question about whether Christians who use/do the things you mentioned are saved. That's probably because salvation has nothing to do with these things, people can't lose, or gain, salvation because of them and they are not at all important compared with the need to preach the Gospel and tell others about Jesus who can give them eternal life.

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These things are absolutely important, yes. There are many saved in most of these religious forms. But how many are lost and sit among them and how many never are free to use the gifts God gives them and so they remain spiritually weak and have not exercised their senses among the body .? To be a good steward of the gifts and grace God gives all MUST use them. If they don't use them because of fear of the religious system or the man unbiblically called "Reverend " may rebuke them for speaking. Then they allow the fear of men to make them hide their gift. Interestingly the word "Reverend" means to be feared. The fear of men brings a snare, and many are bound in this snare. Gods name is reverend as the bible says no man should take such a flattering title..

Darth Bagel said:

I read Ephesians 4 and it doesn't imply what you are suggesting.

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Im not sure what you think I am implying. I am implying that these are manifold gifts not just a pastor gift over all as a title role. Jesus said call no man master, or Rabbi, for one is our master and teacher Jesus.

In Ephesians 4 we see that God "gave gifts unto men" and he GAVE some ,apostles, p[rophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. These GIFTS are for the body and for the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ. And as you read further in Ephesians 4 we see in verses 15 and 16 that Christ is the head of the body and he works effectually in every part to edify the body. So not just the five fold gifts "edify" the body but rather all the body edifies itself in love. The five fold ministry will be very needful in this as they are specific gifts used. But all can use what God gives and every part is needed. We cannot say to one part we have no need of them. But in effect this is what happens when men set one man over all as the pastor and the rest are not needed for edification under Christ headship. Read 1 Peter 4;10,11 as well.

bbbbbbb said:

I see that this interesting thread is being revived. I do find it interesting that, in the New Testament, "pastor" is rarely used and is never associated with the offices of apostle, elder, or deacon.

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Yes the word "pastors" is used once in KJV in Ephesians 4. That s the only time, and yet this one ministry dominates Christendom. Elders plural in every church singular is the biblical patterns. and every part of the body supplying.