Liberal Catholic

mark46 · Jun 30, 2015

RileyG said:
I knew a woman in the RCC who self-identified as a "liberal Catholic". She would often say she felt greatly "ashamed" of her Church for not supporting same-sex marriage, or planned parenthood/abortion etc.

I suppose there are lots of Catholics who would prefer that these many, many millions of Catholics leave the Church. After all, they disagree with Church, and all who disagree should leave, with only Catholics who agree with every position of the Church remaining. Should we really want to kick out all who disagree with the Church on the requirements of the sacrament of marriage?

I understand that OBOB has a different idea of what constitutes to big tent of the universal Church. I'm a bit surprised to see that opinion, without opposition, here.

mark46 · Jun 30, 2015

LivingWordUnity said:
Relativism has its own set of dogmas which are not allowed to be questioned.

Yup, I'm rather used to the accusation that all who disagree with an individual's interpretation of Scripture will go to everlasting hell. After all, I live in the South. I've been used to seeing the street "evangelists" with the same view of the faith. Of course, few are Catholics.

Tallguy88 · Jun 30, 2015

mark46 said:
I suppose there are lots of Catholics who would prefer that these many, many millions of Catholics leave the Church. After all, they disagree with Church, and all who disagree should leave, with only Catholics who agree with every position of the Church remaining. Should we really want to kick out all who disagree with the Church on the requirements of the sacrament of marriage?

I understand that OBOB has a different idea of what constitutes to big tent of the universal Church. I'm a bit surprised to see that opinion, without opposition, here.

Riley is a good guy. I don't think he meant any disrespect.

Rhamiel · Jun 30, 2015

mark46 said:
individual's interpretation of Scripture

are we talking about an individual's interpretation or are we talking about the age old teachings of the Church?
I try to be distinct when I talk about the Catholic Church online, being sure to show the difference between my own views and Church doctrine

we are all still learning what it really means to be Catholic in the 21rst century

mark46 · Jul 3, 2015

Tallguy88 said:
Riley is a good guy. I don't think he meant any disrespect.

point taken

I didn't mean to imply that Riley mean any disrespect. I apologize for the tone if that is the way my comment sounded.

I meant to suggest that the Catholic Church is the universal Church, and we don't expect all that disagree with a particular doctrine to leave the Church. The majority of American Catholics agree that the state should marry homosexuals. The majority of Catholics believe in the use of artificial contraception. The vast majority believe that married men should be accepted into the priesthood. The answer to our disagreement with the Church over a particular issue should not IMHO involved leaving the Church. I would guess that almost all Catholics disagree with some teaching of the Church.

I well understand that when differences get to be large enough, e.g. in the 1500's, some people can be moved to move from the Church. Many have left the Church in this age because of the Church's handling of sexual scandals.

Rhamiel · Jul 3, 2015

mark46 said:
point taken

I didn't mean to imply that Riley mean any disrespect. I apologize for the tone if that is the way my comment sounded.

I meant to suggest that the Catholic Church is the universal Church, and we don't expect all that disagree with a particular doctrine to leave the Church. The majority of American Catholics agree that the state should marry homosexuals. The majority of Catholics believe in the use of artificial contraception. The vast majority believe that married men should be accepted into the priesthood. The answer to our disagreement with the Church over a particular issue should not IMHO involved leaving the Church. I would guess that almost all Catholics disagree with some teaching of the Church.

I well understand that when differences get to be large enough, e.g. in the 1500's, some people can be moved to move from the Church. Many have left the Church in this age because of the Church's handling of sexual scandals.

do you really want to turn this into a popularity contest?

lets look at colonialism or slavery in the 1800's?
these were moral evils, but they sure were popular in some circles

or in the A.D. 300's
there were times when Gnosticism was more widespread, both in clergy and laity, then orthodox Christianity
this was definitely true in the East

the majority of American Catholics agree that the state should marry homosexuals
lets see a pole on what the majority of American Catholics think about "how many times should I forgive my brother?" or "do you love your enemies?" or "do you love God above all and do you love your neighbor as yourself?"

mark46 · Jul 4, 2015

Rhamiel said:
do you really want to turn this into a popularity contest?

lets look at colonialism or slavery in the 1800's?
these were moral evils, but they sure were popular in some circles

or in the A.D. 300's
there were times when Gnosticism was more widespread, both in clergy and laity, then orthodox Christianity
this was definitely true in the East

the majority of American Catholics agree that the state should marry homosexuals
lets see a pole on what the majority of American Catholics think about "how many times should I forgive my brother?" or "do you love your enemies?" or "do you love God above all and do you love your neighbor as yourself?"

The Truth does not depend on the percentage of people who believe a particular issue. My point was that there was room in the universal Church for sinners, for those who disagree with the Church on specific teachings, and those who disagree with the Church on its political positions.

mark46 · Jul 4, 2015

Rhamiel said:
do you really want to turn this into a popularity contest?

lets look at colonialism or slavery in the 1800's?
these were moral evils, but they sure were popular in some circles

or in the A.D. 300's
there were times when Gnosticism was more widespread, both in clergy and laity, then orthodox Christianity
this was definitely true in the East

the majority of American Catholics agree that the state should marry homosexuals
lets see a pole on what the majority of American Catholics think about "how many times should I forgive my brother?" or "do you love your enemies?" or "do you love God above all and do you love your neighbor as yourself?"

I suspect that you see conflict between loving your neighbor and supporting secular rights for those same neighbors.

And yes, I believe that the vast majority of American Catholics do love their neighbors and agree with the Church in its political stances regarding the poor, the weak, the alien, the lame and the prisoner.

Rhamiel · Jul 4, 2015

we are all sinners
the Church is a hospital for sinners, we have to stop acting so shocked when we find flawed and hurt people in the Church
that is where they need to be
it is the only place they can get the help they need

but they can not get that help, if people tell them that their wounds are not wounds at all
"oh don't worry about that spear in your leg, that's normal"

homosexual actions are serious sins
we see this both in scripture, and in the ordinary magisterium of the Church

Rhamiel · Jul 4, 2015

mark46 said:
I suspect that you see conflict between loving your neighbor and supporting secular rights for those same neighbors.

And yes, I believe that the vast majority of American Catholics do love their neighbors and agree with the Church in its political stances regarding the poor, the weak, the alien, the lame and the prisoner.

how many Catholics go out and feed the poor? how many go out and visit with prisoners? how many go out and tend to the sick?
I did not say how many have good feelings about these teachings
how many Catholics actually do anything about it?

Martinius · Jul 5, 2015

Rhamiel said:
how many Catholics go out and feed the poor? how many go out and visit with prisoners? how many go out and tend to the sick?
I did not say how many have good feelings about these teachings
how many Catholics actually do anything about it?

Excellent point. Let's imagine that when we are before God we will not be judged by what we said: no prayers, no kindnesses, no un-kindnesses, no words at all, or even what we believe in our minds. Rather, let's say that God will look at only what we DID and did NOT do, in response to the Gospel. How much "video" of our lives will God have to review? The answer for most of us is that it won't take much time at all.

That could be the difference between saying you are Catholic and actually being one.

Martinius · Jul 5, 2015

mark46 said:
I believe that the vast majority of American Catholics do love their neighbors and agree with the Church in its political stances regarding the poor, the weak, the alien, the lame and the prisoner.

These are MORAL positions, not political. Some people label them as political, but the Catholic Church teachings on these are squarely based on the Gospel. Even caring for our only home, the Earth, is primarily a Moral issue and based solidly on Catholic teaching, over and above any political, economic or scientific considerations, as Pope Francis states so well in his encyclical.

Open Heart · Jul 5, 2015

Rhamiel said:
how many Catholics go out and feed the poor? how many go out and visit with prisoners? how many go out and tend to the sick?
I did not say how many have good feelings about these teachings
how many Catholics actually do anything about it?

Most Catholics at my parish:

Give to the general fund, a part of which goes to the poor.
Support fundraisers that are designed to give to the poor.
Give food and clothing annually during Lent to the poor.

Aidan K · Jul 5, 2015

Not everyone is in a position to have a ministery to others. If all you can do is smile at a neighbour or drop a small coin into a box, then God sees it. Better to light one candle than to curse the dark. The widow with her mite knew this

Martinius · Jul 5, 2015

Open Heart said:
Most Catholics at my parish:

Give to the general fund, a part of which goes to the poor.

Support fundraisers that are designed to give to the poor.

Give food and clothing annually during Lent to the poor.

Most Catholics, as you illustrate, give from a distance. Is that truly responding faithfully to the Gospel? Did Jesus tell us a story about giving money to a "needy travelers" fund, or a story about inconveniencing ourselves to help a stranger in desperate need?

Aidan K said:
Not everyone is in a position to have a ministery to others. If all you can do is smile at a neighbour or drop a small coin into a box, then God sees it. Better to light one candle than to curse the dark. The widow with her mite knew this

Almost everyone can. Here's a true story about ministry, one of several I could relate. Diane and Sue were acquaintances and neighbors. When Sue's chronic illness forced her to quit work, Diane visited her and as Sue became weaker, she cooked and did household chores for her. Sue called her an angel, but Diane was just doing what Jesus taught us to do. Diane did the same for others, of course, and we can too. I suspect the widow gave much more of her time and talent to her neighbors than she ever gave in treasure.

Open Heart · Jul 5, 2015

Martinius said:
Most Catholics, as you illustrate, give from a distance. Is that truly responding faithfully to the Gospel? Did Jesus tell us a story about giving money to a "needy travelers" fund, or a story about inconveniencing ourselves to help a stranger in desperate need?

I think it is both, really. In the story about the sheep and the goats, it doesn't say HOW the sheep fed the hungry or clothes the naked; it just said they did. I think giving indirectly does count. Trust me, I've been the hungry one receiving the food, and I appreciate the fact that it comes from many indirect sources as well as those working the food banks. I'm even thankful to those who were not cheerful givers.

Rhamiel · Jul 5, 2015

there are arguments about giving collectively
either through government programs or through supporting larger charities

we can look the collective model of the early Church to support both ideas

if someone helps, I am not going to really criticize them for how they choose to help

we need some government oversight
but I am afraid that too many Catholics favor big government

Open Heart · Jul 5, 2015

Rhamiel said:
we can look the collective model of the early Church to support both ideas

Quite true, that.

mark46 · Jul 5, 2015

Open Heart said:
Most Catholics at my parish:

Give to the general fund, a part of which goes to the poor.

Support fundraisers that are designed to give to the poor.

Give food and clothing annually during Lent to the poor.

and many give to Catholics Charities, almost all of which goes to the needy

mark46 · Jul 5, 2015

Rhamiel said:
there are arguments about giving collectively
either through government programs or through supporting larger charities

we can look the collective model of the early Church to support both ideas

if someone helps, I am not going to really criticize them for how they choose to help

we need some government oversight
but I am afraid that too many Catholics favor big government

Person to person giving is great. However, so is collective giving.

You don't think that Catholic Charities is a good model of a charity? First, with regard to moral choices, the Church backs it. There are organizations which judge charities, using may ways to judge include how much actually gets to the needy. Catholic Charities gets a top rating. Also, other religious organizations like Salvation Army, Samaritan's Purse and World Vision get top marks. There are also secular organizations that get top marks such as Goodwill, Doctors Without Borders and The Red Cross.

I agree that some large charities are not the best ones to give to. We have several organizations that judge these charities for us.

What government oversight is useful to you in your choosing a charity?
====
I understand that many here disagree with opinions of our bishops and the pope that the government has a major role is providing for the poor, the weak, the sick, the alien, the prisoner and the discriminated against. However, that is only part of the issue. As Catholics, we have many options with regard to giving, both directly and through Church organizations.

Unfortunately, we cannot rely only on the churches to help the poor. Even in the US, where charitable giving is much higher than anywhere else, there is a role for governmental help to the weakest among us. And yes, Jesus taught that we have responsibilities both to the weak in our family of faith and those aliens (e.g. Samaritans) who are outside our own group. It primarily though government money and secular charities that we help non-Christians in the US and throughout the world.

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