Hate the Religion - not the Religious

outsidethecamp said:

Jesus Christ is a Person and He is not a religion. Walking with Him daily is not a religion. Comparing Biblical Christianity with world religions is comparing Apples to Oranges. Can't be done.

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HaShem is a Person and He is not a religion. Walking with Him daily and carrying out His commandments is not a religion. Comparing Judaism with world religions is comparing apples to oranges. Can't be done.

LoAmmi said:

HaShame is a Person and He is not a religion. Walking with Him daily and carrying out His commandments is not a religion. Comparing Judaism with world religions is comparing apples to oranges. Can't be done.

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I respect your statement. It's really vain to get into a religious debate over belief systems, isn't it. "My belief system is better than yours", type of thing.

outsidethecamp said:

I respect your statement. It's really vain to get into a religious debate over belief systems, isn't it. "My belief system is better than yours", type of thing.

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I couldn't agree more. Which is why I find the entire "it isn't a religion" argument to be complete vanity. You have a religion. There is absolutely nothing you can say that would make your faith so unique that the word religion doesn't fit.

cloudyday2 said:

Nobody decides, because nobody has free will.
The ocean doesn't decide to form a hurricane.
Homo erectus didn't decide to evolve into homo sapiens.
Society doesn't decide to reward some behaviors and punish other behaviors.

If we have problems with bears stealing picnic lunches in Jellystone Park, do we blame the bears, or do we blame the National Parks for not training the visitors to watch their picnic baskets?

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You are starting with a false premise. When you begin with the idea that man has no intrinsic value beyond that of a worm you are able to then devalue the mind that sets us apart from an animal. But you go beyond the that, if I understand you correctly. You are saying that We have no choice in what we do? You are saying that we are simply the product of the sum of our experiences, much like a computer? If so, I must disagree with you strongly. That would put us below even the animals. If you've ever worked with animals you know that even a docile animal who has been loved and cared for has the ability to lash out. My uncle raised hogs for years, and he treated them well. Never hit them, never abused them, never used electricity on them. They were usually fine, but occasionally would try to bite him, or charge him for no reason other than they were in a bad mood. It was not environment that caused them to act out in this way. The sum of their experience was that humans were good to them. There would be no way for them to deviate from docility if they were simply the product of environment.

Surly a man has more ability than an animal, who cannot process higher thought, to evaluate and respond to their circumstances.

cloudyday2 said:

The hogs lashed-out because they were in a bad mood.
The hogs were in a bad mood, because ... they didn't get a good night's sleep? ... something?

In other words, the behavior of the hogs was not their "choice".

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What I find interesting is that there is absolutely no way to argue the point because it is an arbitrary claim with nothing to support it. I would simply say that, according to my understanding of the world, this is diabolical in nature. You have reduced human worth to absolutely nothing. I believe that the greatest thing that humans possess is the ability to choose for ourselves the way that we will react to any given situation. We may not be able to control what is done to us, but we certainly have the ability to control our reaction. How can the forgiveness of a mother toward the murderer of her child be explained? Is there any experience that should lead to that reaction? You must ignore the anomalies in human nature in order for your premise to even have the semblance of reality. There are far too many examples of the unnatural reaction of people to be a statistically negligible. There must be something that accounts for these unnatural reactions. I know this to be the Spirit of God.

cloudyday2 said:

When some religious person does something evil, stupid, or whatever, I often hear advice such as "don't condemn the religion; those people weren't really following Islam, Christianity, ...".

My opinion is the opposite. People are shaped by circumstances. Nobody is innately good or innately evil. Under slightly different circumstances, Joseph Stalin might have become a priest or a baseball commentator or almost anything. Society shapes the individual. When we see people from a certain society behaving badly, we cannot simply blame the individuals; we must blame their society. When religion is an important part of their society, then we must blame their religion.

Obviously we need to punish individuals, because that deters misbehavior. However, we need to look at the true causes of misbehavior - psychological, early childhood, poverty, ... and in some cases religion. Blaming the individual is pointless, because it is very possible that nobody has free will.

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Pure psychobabble. Individuals are individuals and they go the way they find most suitable for themselves. This idea of blaming everyone under the sun except the person acting out is nothing more than granting the person the justifications to act out. If it's not their fault than they are not to be blamed for anything and personal responsibility goes out the door.

cloudyday2 said:

We can punish individuals for bad behavior without believing in free will. The punishment helps to deter the individual - just as a hill on a golf course diverts the course of a golf ball.

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This has nothing to do with what I said and the point

As far as punishment, we do this as an act of revenge. A determined effort to have a perpetrator make restitution to the aggrieved party is never on the agenda. Just taking revenge out on the individual by warehousing that person away from society in the company of those who can only instruct him in the criminal arts.

cloudyday2 said:

So what's the message of the Binding of Isaac? The message I hear is: "Do what God tells you to do without question. Don't use your human intellect or your human morality - just follow God's instructions and let it be God's responsibility." That's just great if God is really giving the instructions, but sometimes people are mistaken.

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(From the wisdom of the Rebbe,)

"If you do His will only because it makes sense to you,
Then what does it have to do with Him?
You are doing your own will,
you are back in prison."

Also, re Abraham, Isaak.

Abraham,s obeying God was as spiritually powerful as completing the act itself.

The honored Sages even say that the deep level of Abraham and Isaak,s
personal sacrifice acted as a kapparah (atonement)
for every sin that the nation of Israel ever made and ever will make.

Also, the sounding of the shofar-rams horn during the month of elu,
on RoshHaShanah and at the close of Yom Kippur.

Reminiscent of the ram,
"Tangled in the bush by it,s horns." during the binding of Isaak.
Gen 22

Robban said:

The honored Sages even say that the deep level of Abraham and Isaak,s
personal sacrifice acted as a kapparah (atonement)
for every sin that the nation of Israel ever made and ever will make.

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Baha'u'llah said something very similar, although following the Qur'an he has Ismael rather than Isaac as the sacrifice:

"That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the
All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice
of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His
steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but
Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to
sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the
peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary,
besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer
upon Him. For the same reason was Husayn offered up as a sacrifice by
Muhammad, the Apostle of God.
No man can ever claim to have comprehended the nature of the hidden
and manifold grace of God; none can fathom His all-embracing mercy.
Such hath been the perversity of men and their transgressions, so
grievous have been the trials that have afflicted the Prophets of God
and their chosen ones, that all mankind deserveth to be tormented and
to perish. God's hidden and most loving providence, however, hath,
through both visible and invisible agencies, protected and will
continue to protect it from the penalty of its wickedness.
Ponder this in thine heart, that the truth may be revealed unto thee,
and be thou steadfast in His path." (Gleanings from the Writings of
Baha'u'llah, pp. 75-76.)

Cloudyday... You'd have to do a lot of editing and censorship to protect all those innocent people! You know what happens when you do that...? People want to know what you censored.

The story in the Bible was suited I believe for it's time and had a purpose.

cloudyday2 said:

Would you agree that this type of thinking is extremely dangerous? Hearing voices is quite common ( http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/voice-hearing-by-the-numbers/ ). Often these voices can be very powerful and demanding. There are modern cases where "God" tells parents to kill their children, and sometimes they end in tragedy.

Is it more common for mentally ill parents to kill their children when they have been indoctrinated in a religion that idolizes the story of Abraham's blind obedience? If so, would it make sense for society to demand that these religions change their teachings to protect the innocent?

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Who said anything about hearing voices?

You been watching too much tv?

Divine inspiration is not about hearing voices,

I would say it is having your thoughts guided by the Divine force.

Of course, some or many say, "I listen to my heart"
All well and good, but it depends on what side of the heart one listens to.

The animal soul that we are all born with, resides in the left side of the heart,
the pump station,

The Godly soul resides in the right side of the heart
Some of the signals we recieve are filtered through the interllect and may even trickle down to the right side of the heart which in turn stirs the Godly soul which in turn will awaken it,
Or, otherwise known as igniting, so that it burns, flames as we all know strive upward.
so also for the Godly soul.

Not all can meditate on these things, understandably,
many have families, jobs and 1001 things to take care of.

Zoness said:

I grow tired of this nonsensical idea of Christianity not being a religion. Christianity is in fact, a religion.

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This ^^^

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