Are We Fighting For a Lost Cause

Spikey4672

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You will have to forgive me if this thread doesn't sound as "sophisticated" as I would like but it is by all means a serious question.
Lately I have been patrolling the media and since the Supreme Court's ruling on the gay marriage case it seems you can't go anywhere without finding that every major media mogul from Google to NBC is delighted at the outcome and wants to celebrate by posting pictures and videos of gay couples everywhere. Of course this was expected, but lately I have found that it has started opening my eyes to exactly how fallen the world around me is. Mind you, I am only seventeen and I realize my point of view is a very shallow one lacking wisdom and experience, but I cannot help but feel as the only young conservative I have ever met in a state heralded as part of the Bible belt, that I am fighting a losing battle. I read the Scriptures and I have tried to seek counsel from some of my elders but the most common response I have is that I know that Jesus will win out in the end. While that is true, I would rather think my race is going to have at least some moments of triumph and not just be me trying to do a 5k over a minefield. I feel like the world, specifically the U.S., has finally reached the point of no return, and I know that reality says it will only get worse. I still have a lot of life, God willing, ahead of me, and while I realize it is foolish to believe it will be easy, but if conservatism is a lost cause I would rather not have my hopes up. It petrifies me to think of the world I would bring my future children up in, and the kind of utter nonsense that they would be spoon fed by the fallen culture. I guess what I am really looking for is some encouragement, I truly feel like there is no hope, and I know my trust and future should lie in God alone, but I love my country dearly, and it hurts me very much to see it succumb to the demands of the unrighteous few. Is there anybody who can tell me if conservatism is a lost cause or is it still salvageable, or does it really matter in the grand scheme of things?
 

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Hi spikey,

Yes, the world is made up of wicked people. Just imagine how it must have been in Noah's day or when Jonah was called to Nineveh. Or what life must have been like in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. The people of the world, as a whole, have always spent much effort in denying the truth of God. We are wicked and we lust after the pleasures of our flesh. We strive to be hedonists with everything that is in us. It is our nature and that nature traces its roots all the way back to the days of Adam. Paul expounds at some length and breadth of the wickedness that people embrace in the opening of his letter to the Roman believers.

A pastor friend of mine used to do a message where he would read off the list found in that chapter and ask each person to say 'Ow' when one was read that they personally struggled with. The room would be full of 'Ows'. I had to answer to a few of them myself. The Scriptures are true! We are sinners saved by grace. And according to Paul's continued teaching, that sin nature is still with us and is a constant struggle even among believers. So, one can imagine how unbelievers are, although they don't address the issues as sin and often are not at all troubled by the things they do.

Yes, there are some who are able to overcome this basic hedonistic attitude and I applaud them, if they are born again believers, but for the vast majority of us, and I believe also for Paul, it was and is a daily struggle to put the care and concern of others above our own lusts. It just isn't in our nature as a general rule. The world teaches us that we have to look out for number one. That we deserve pampering and various luxuries and lusts because of our hard work. You know, if it feels good, do it! Even people like Bill Gates or Ted Turner who give away much of their largess for the benefit of others stop well short of such giving long before it ever gets to the point that they will be without.

However, I think we fail the call of our Lord when we strive to bring about righteousness through man's law. Same sex relations is bound to come into a world that is filled with people who strive for little more than to fulfill their own lustful desires. Abortions are easy because they fill a need that we have because of our inability to control ourselves. People are poor and destitute because those of us who are the 'haves' aren't inclined to share even a small morsel with the 'have nots', and certainly wouldn't even dream of giving a 'have not' more than we have. On the whole, we are a stingy, self-righteous, hoarding mass of people. We want to trust that money in the bank is our security and gosh, gee that's just too bad that others don't have it.

We are wicked! We are selfish. We have been and are becoming more and more a people filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. We are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. We are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; we invent ways of doing evil; we disobey our parents; we are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although we know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, we not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Our daily fare of television is chock a block full of gossip and arrogant people. We enjoy and approve of shows that teach us how we can satisfy our base needs and how others also satisfy those needs. Our books and magazines are full of the same exact instructions and examples. Advertising is built on the basic premise that if you show someone a product that sets them above others, that it is a 'good' thing. I was always amazed at the Jaguar commercials that clearly and plainly pandered to our lust for sin. We find nothing wrong with wanting to own the finest car that we can afford that satisfies our lust for a great sound system, the best computer system, the snazziest look and color. Yet, it's just a car. A method of transportation, but our world is built on the basic foundational truth that if you make something better looking or better operational, people will desire it in their heart. We always want better, better, better. New and improved. We are never satisfied. We absolutely cannot even consider living a simple life, as God first created it, and being satisfied in just knowing that He loves us and He will provide for our basic needs and that our goal is not to continue to attain better and better, but to be still and know that He is God and that He loves us.

He asks us to take care of others and set our lusts and desires aside. The world is never going to buy into that! And such temptation becomes even harder and harder for His children as they are surrounded by this continual greed and lust for more. I have always considered that the more simpler faiths such as the Quaker and Mennonite practice is probably much more in line with God's desire for us, but the world feeds itself by striving for more and better. People are employed because of our lust for more and better. Whole industries survive because of our lust for more and better.

I've long since considered that those who enjoy the safety and security of the walls of the new city of Zion that comes down from the clouds will live simple lives spending the goodly part of their day just knowing that they are loved of God and loving Him in return for just the simple things of air and food and shelter. No cars. No computers. No glitzy laundry machines or most of the other 'stuff' that supplies the world's lust for more and better. We will spend our days sharing with others and providing help to others, knowing that we individually have all that we need. Days will be simple and fulfilling just resting in the security that our God will take care of us forever and ever.

However, we will never effect an individual life by fighting against the government for godly laws. The only way we can effect an individual's life is to follow Jesus' instruction. Go into all the world teaching them and baptizing them. That they, too, might share in the promise of God's eternal life. You can stop a woman from getting an abortion, but if you haven't taught her and encouraged her to know Jesus, she's still a sinner destined for the pit. You can stop someone who enjoys same sex relations from engaging in such a practice, but if you haven't led them to Jesus, you've just stopped a sinner from sinning, but done nothing for their eternal existence. And no, I don't agree that by showing others the love of Jesus by our actions that we are doing what Jesus asked of us, although that is a part of living a godly life. Jesus didn't say that we were to go out and 'show' the world what it was like to live a life following him. He asked us to teach them how to live a life that honors our God and Father, the creator of this realm. He asks us to teach them and then baptize them into the family of God that they may become children of God.

It's fine and good for us to give a hungry person food, but for the one who is born again, if he doesn't include with that some instruction about the 'why' and 'for whom' that he is doing it, then we're no more than a social welfare agency. If we don't at least try to tell them the truth of God along with the food that we give them, then all we've done is feed a sinner who will still die in his sin. A woman seeking an abortion that we are able to stop her from having without adding to that effort teaching them the truth of God, is just a woman who didn't get an abortion but will still die in her sin. If we could be successful in making abortions illegal all across the globe and somehow stopping people from getting them, we still would not have led one single soul to the way of God's salvation. We would have just stopped abortions. The list is long!

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Sketcher

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The conservative Christian message concerning homosexuality is as follows:

- Homosexual lust and behavior is sinful
- Jesus died and rose again to forgive sins, including this one
- Those who have been forgiven from sin must no longer walk in it, but be gently and lovingly led out of it

If we don't play to the tactics of the media and the Internet troublemakers, we can make this message go a long way. The game they play is to make themselves look good while simultaneously demonizing those that disagree with them; make them look like their opposition is evil, ignorant, or both. They often do this by baiting people, taking what they say out of context, and not telling the whole truth. This is whether it is about what we say, or what the Bible or history says. They take what they can spin and make it public, while leaving out the other facts that would discredit the thesis of their accusation. Some have also been known to make stuff up to fill in the blanks.

How to deal with this?

- Know the facts concerning what they're talking about. Learn how to parse information so that you are not believing lies or untruths. It helps to know who is an expert at what, and why that person is considered an expert. If a smart person is quoted outside of his or her expertise on a topic, then don't be intimidated by the name attached to the argument. Also, consider the credibility of the source in general. Wikipedia can be edited by anybody - go to the sources it quotes, and make a determination. And recognize the biases of the experts being used as source material. Do their methods have integrity? Why?
- Related to the above point, bone up on apologetics. "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel and "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis are baby-level, which should whet your appetite for more. "I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist" by Drs. Franks Turek and Norm Geisler is also very good, but that should be digested slowly, and the philosophical end of its claims is the strongest. This is just general stuff for the Christian faith, as dumb arguments against the Bible get dragged into debates like the homosexuality debate.
- Know logical fallacies. Liberals like to teach these in such a way as to break someone's Christian faith, but don't fall for that. That usually operates by relying on your susceptibility to fall for the fallacious conclusion that their example would lead an uncritical mind to. But this itself is a fallacy, argumentum ad logicam. Learn the logical fallacies yourself. The Christian faith, when properly understood, does not rely on fallacy. There is a surprising number of liberals however, who rely on fallacy for their points of view. Learn them yourself:
http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/pdf/LogicalFallaciesInfographic_A3.pdf
- Don't be baited into a heated argument. You have to be calmer than the other person. Make it a game in your head: "I'm calmer than you are." Ask questions and present facts in a calm and reasonable manner, such as to destabilize their argument. Look like the good guy in the manner that you do this. Then reasonable people will see that the emperor has no clothes, and they're dealing with a knowledgeable, loving Christian who is presenting a reasonable case.

Remember, when a lie is told enough, people begin to accept it as true. Therefore, the truth needs to be repeated along these lines time and time again. As this is done, popular lies have a chance to erode.
 
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VegasGeorge

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First, let me say I share your concerns. But, my observation is that we, meaning we Christians in the trenches, so to speak, haven't yet begun to fight. Sure, we have a handful of elected conservative Christian politicians, and some media types, who at least present the appearance of fighting for our beliefs. But we ordinary conservative Christian people have been sitting it out on our living room couches, watching the action on TV. If that's what we continue to do, then yes, we will lose the "fight." But, if we actually stand up, get out on the street, crowd into the public forums, and really take action in support of our faith and beliefs, then we will have a fighting chance to win. We know that God is on our side. His Word actually says He is. So, take heart, screw up your courage, and get out there and make a difference for the Lord.
 
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Norm d'Plume

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The game they play is to make themselves look good while simultaneously demonizing those that disagree with them; make them look like their opposition is evil, ignorant, or both.
It's rather interesting what happens when you insert a couple of names in place of "they":

The game Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell play is to make themselves look good while simultaneously demonizing those that disagree with them; make them look like their opposition is evil, ignorant, or both.

I plan to let God sort it out.
Norm
 
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BobRyan

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First, let me say I share your concerns. But, my observation is that we, meaning we Christians in the trenches, so to speak, haven't yet begun to fight. Sure, we have a handful of elected conservative Christian politicians, and some media types, who at least present the appearance of fighting for our beliefs. But we ordinary conservative Christian people have been sitting it out on our living room couches, watching the action on TV. If that's what we continue to do, then yes, we will lose the "fight." But, if we actually stand up, get out on the street, crowd into the public forums, and really take action in support of our faith and beliefs, then we will have a fighting chance to win. We know that God is on our side. His Word actually says He is. So, take heart, screw up your courage, and get out there and make a difference for the Lord.

You are right - the conservatives - even the moderates in America have been sitting this one out - and now it is coming after them - it will drive them out of business it will drive them to the back of the bus in their own churches, it will file law suits against them, it will declare certain parts of the Bible as "hate speech" ... there is only so far the conservative and moderates can retreat before their back is finally against a wall and they have to turn and stand for what they believe - by actually voting instead of constantly sitting.

The 20-somethings and even into the early 30-somethings are completely awash even among many of the conservative groups. All the liberals have to do is not jump-the-gun too quickly - let this fester for about 10 to 15 more years and there will be no "Base" left for conservative and moderates to appeal to....
 
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Sketcher

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It's rather interesting what happens when you insert a couple of names in place of "they":

The game Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell play is to make themselves look good while simultaneously demonizing those that disagree with them; make them look like their opposition is evil, ignorant, or both.

I plan to let God sort it out.
Norm
I'd say they both failed miserably at making themselves look good. These are actually two examples of right-leaning Christians who gave the opposition a lot of ammo just by opening their mouths.
 
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football5680

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Christians should resist evil regardless of how bleak the outcome looks. I'm sure the earliest Christians couldn't imagine how quickly Christianity would grow and how powerful it would become when they were suffering persecution. Our duty is to simply proclaim and stand up for the truth of God.

and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. (Matthew 10:22)

God is our judge and this is the only opinion we should care about. We do not know how things will turn out in the future but if we stand up for the truth of God then we will be blameless and God will condemn the world for refusing to listen.
 
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estevancarlos

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There is increasing research suggesting that access to the internet has influenced a decline in traditional religiosity. There are not major points of research but instead there's data that people are still looking at. The argument in some communities is that an increased access to new ideas, unfamiliar religions, and different cultures increases the likelihood of seeing cultures from different perspectives.

For example, if you only grow up around one Christian sect but later realize there are 29k other Christians sects, you may be inclined to learn about those or participate. Additionally, if you observe that there are happy, healthy people who participate in other religions (Judaism, Islam, etc) a person might then question whether their faith is necessary to also be happy and healthy. And finally, access to more cultures includes access to more non-believers. If you observe non-believers who are kind people, it may encourage a person to reconsider their biases.

The point being is that some "causes" may be lost in the face of a globalized community and access to information. However there's always room for new causes in the future.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I think that what the press and decisions like this by the Supreme Court have us doing is looking 'outward' at the world and it's sinful ways.

While we all want to make major positive change in the world around us, let's all remember that our primary focus as it was in the early days of the apostles is to share the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ!

It is hard when we see all this evil around us, to keep focused on what God and Jesus have given us to do, which is to love (as shown by what Jesus said the two most important commandments were, the two commandments that if kept, fulfill all of the law and to preach the gospel). I think that satan puts evil in front of us to get us unfocused to what we 'can' indeed change and have an impact on, because for us to see all the evil in the world, is to discourage us.

We must stay 'focused'. We must remember that as Christ's own, our job is to affect an individual life first and to add to His kingdom in souls.

Yes, it is difficult. I hope that we can stay focused on God. All the media is off course, happy at this decision. We must remember that each person is important to Christ. So important that each new person that is saved, that all of heaven rejoices!

I am constantly having to re-adjust my thinking back to what God see's as important and what God wants from each of us.

I often wonder if the apostle Paul realized what the gentile churches that he started would achieve over the upcoming 2,000 years? If he knew what an impact it would all make, what started as one man, doing the will of God.

I just try to see myself in the light of I don't know what touching one live will do in God's ultimate plan and that I just much put in God's hands what he does through each of His servants who glorify His holy name.
 
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ToBeLoved

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My prediction: as Christian perceptions increase that they are losing the argument, they will get even wackier and MORE intransigent.

I wonder though, would that thought be working right into evil's hand? If the church or our church depending on how you look at it, does not have to marry people, but it is instead the justice of the peace or whatever elected official and we can still be allowed to say what is sin vs. what is not sin (not to judge an individual sin, but that homosexuality when part of sexual sin is a sin) than I hope that we can keep this out of our churches, so to speak.

This is one of those topics that just pulls me from two sides. For heterosexuals, it is better to marry than sin with our eyes in lust or to engage in sexuality outside of marriage. For homosexuals,I'm not sure how that should all be decided within the church.

I wish that they called it something other than 'marriage'.
 
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ken777

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You will have to forgive me if this thread doesn't sound as "sophisticated" as I would like but it is by all means a serious question.
Lately I have been patrolling the media and since the Supreme Court's ruling on the gay marriage case it seems you can't go anywhere without finding that every major media mogul from Google to NBC is delighted at the outcome and wants to celebrate by posting pictures and videos of gay couples everywhere. Of course this was expected, but lately I have found that it has started opening my eyes to exactly how fallen the world around me is. Mind you, I am only seventeen and I realize my point of view is a very shallow one lacking wisdom and experience, but I cannot help but feel as the only young conservative I have ever met in a state heralded as part of the Bible belt, that I am fighting a losing battle. I read the Scriptures and I have tried to seek counsel from some of my elders but the most common response I have is that I know that Jesus will win out in the end. While that is true, I would rather think my race is going to have at least some moments of triumph and not just be me trying to do a 5k over a minefield. I feel like the world, specifically the U.S., has finally reached the point of no return, and I know that reality says it will only get worse. I still have a lot of life, God willing, ahead of me, and while I realize it is foolish to believe it will be easy, but if conservatism is a lost cause I would rather not have my hopes up. It petrifies me to think of the world I would bring my future children up in, and the kind of utter nonsense that they would be spoon fed by the fallen culture. I guess what I am really looking for is some encouragement, I truly feel like there is no hope, and I know my trust and future should lie in God alone, but I love my country dearly, and it hurts me very much to see it succumb to the demands of the unrighteous few. Is there anybody who can tell me if conservatism is a lost cause or is it still salvageable, or does it really matter in the grand scheme of things?

Read the back of the book ... we win! :clap:
 
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ToBeLoved

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Folks, bear with me if you will. I'm on a bit of a rant, but I've been bottling this up for a while.

We have massive church buildings all across the country, worth billions of dollars. How much money is collected to run them? How many children and elderly go hungry? The programs to help our brothers and sisters being persecuted oversees are grossly underfunded. The Lord said, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

If we are losing this war, it's because we're sleeping with the enemy.

Rest assured, God will not be mocked.

Christ has said that he will be with us always, even to the end of the age. He will never leave us or forsake us.

The choice to walk with the enemy or to walk with God is being made for us. There is no time for petty divisions when your in flight and surrounded. Those he loves he rebukes and disciplines, be zealous and repent.

I'm glad that this gauntlet was thrown down prior to the Lord's return, or else we might be found sleeping.

I don't understand your point?
 
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You will have to forgive me if this thread doesn't sound as "sophisticated" as I would like but it is by all means a serious question.
Lately I have been patrolling the media and since the Supreme Court's ruling on the gay marriage case it seems you can't go anywhere without finding that every major media mogul from Google to NBC is delighted at the outcome and wants to celebrate by posting pictures and videos of gay couples everywhere.
1 Peter 4:17 > we get judged first.

Of course this was expected, but lately I have found that it has started opening my eyes to exactly how fallen the world around me is.
Jesus has a major issue with hypocrites.
Mind you, I am only seventeen and I realize my point of view is a very shallow one lacking wisdom and experience, but I cannot help but feel as the only young conservative I have ever met in a state heralded as part of the Bible belt, that I am fighting a losing battle.
God wins while we trust Him, and we be His example to help anyone who trusts in Jesus > "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)
I read the Scriptures and I have tried to seek counsel from some of my elders but the most common response I have is that I know that Jesus will win out in the end.
And Jesus is winning, now. With Him, we now win by loving the way He wants. By obeying God, ourselves, we win, because we overcome how evil is trying to keep us discouraged and with our eyes busy with what Satan's kingdom is doing . . . instead of first seeking God and how He succeeds with us > "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)
I know that reality says it will only get worse.
"But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:13)
It petrifies me to think of the world I would bring my future children up in, and the kind of utter nonsense that they would be spoon fed by the fallen culture.
God has been bringing you up; He is able to bring up your children :) Even in spite of how we might doubt God's ability to bring us up in this evil world . . . still He does it. Plus, we always have not been able to do things right, on our own > "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 corinthians 3:5)
I guess what I am really looking for is some encouragement, I truly feel like there is no hope, and I know my trust and future should lie in God alone, but I love my country dearly, and it hurts me very much to see it succumb to the demands of the unrighteous few. Is there anybody who can tell me if conservatism is a lost cause or is it still salvageable, or does it really matter in the grand scheme of things?
I seem to keep hearing ones talking about what unbelievers are doing wrong. But we need our own correction > Hebrews 12:6-11, James 5:16. We can be busy with pointing the finger at others, and not give attention to ourselves.
 
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