False teachers... From my other thread.

Leevo

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Hey guys, I wanted to move this here, because I wanted Christian viewpoints, not atheist ones. It seemed the majority of the responses on my other post in the Ethics & Morality forum were atheists. So here is what I wrote, I would love your thoughts.

I felt the need to write this in light of today. In my state of TN, there have been a few pastors in my area to already embrace and marry same sex couples in their church's. I think these men are the false teachers we were warned about in Colossians 2:8, Romans 16:17-18, Matthew 7:15, etc... and personally, would never attend their church, because they are no real pastor at all... The Bible is clear about homosexuality as a sin, and it should not be embraced by any Christians, let alone the people who are supposed to be our "leaders." The Bible states that Pastors will be judged harder than everyone else, I think these men might be in for a rude awakening. Please understand, I write this not out of hate, I am alright with the supreme court ruling, it is a secular issue, as long as church leaders aren't forced to perform the marriages, and so long as my church leaders refuse to take part.
 

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It is not that a passage such as Romans 1 is unclear. It is clearly no endorsement of Homosexuality.

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.



Moreover, it is in the NT, and makes no reference to OT commands, so there is no question of whether it is now obsolete under the new covenant, which many in the other thread seemed to jump on regarding other texts.

And unlike some other texts it does not depend on the definition of a single word. You referenced the text in I Corinthians in the other thread. Some debate the meaning of the word used in that text. However, in Romans 1 this is not the case. The passage is not reliant on only one word to convey what he is talking about.

Moreover, you cannot claim, as some do in looking at some controversial passages, that Paul was simply addressing a local situation, rather than universal principles. The context does not really allow for that here. The passage is actually part of a long section where Paul is essentially presenting a case for all of humanity being sinners, and in need of salvation. And it chronicles the slouching of humanity in general further into sin, not a particular local situation.

The argument begins in 1:18 with a blanket argument to show that no one could claim they were ignorant of God:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.


Then it goes on to show that though men knew God, they did not worship Him and were darkened, falling further and further into sin.

Romans 1 is likely intentionally provocative towards Jewish readers, as it points out what they would consider to be some of the more revolting sins practiced among the Gentiles, such as idolatry and homosexuality. But then he turns the tables in chapter 2 showing how those who condemn folks who do these sins are likewise under sin, and in need of the grace revealed in Christ.

Rom 2:21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal?
Rom 2:22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
Rom 2:23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law.
Rom 2:24 For, as it is written, "The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
Rom 2:25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.


The entire argument builds to chapter 3 where it is shown all have sinned and are in need of grace:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.


So the context is universal here, not a local situation. It is talking generally about the sin problem. So I would say Romans 1 is particularly helpful in this discussion. It is not dependent on OT commands, is not dependent on the definition of one word in describing the sin in question, and it is found in a universal context.

While you did get mostly responses from atheists in the other thread, I would just say that one poster did seem to touch on the heart of the issue. The issue is differing approaches to Scripture in general.

The issue is not that a text such as Romans 1 is unclear on the subject. The problem is some folks do not view the Scriptures as the be-all-end-all of revealing God's nature or will.
Some view each word of Scripture as inspired, and representing the views of God. Others see that some elements may be inspired and universal, and other things may be more representative of the views of the human instrument, or perhaps at best a dim reflection of God's views, but not the whole story.

Essentially, those who take the view that the church should embrace homosexuals who are still practicing homosexual sex are not basing this claim on any of the specific texts regarding homosexuality. Instead they are trying to say that those texts represented Paul's views, or the view of the culture, and that the love for all portrayed in other parts of Scripture show God's true intent.

To me they must explain away quite a bit to get to that point, and I cannot join them in that interpretation. But they can defend their stance if the like.

To me Paul clearly taught that Christ is the solution to the sin problem, through forgiveness of sins, but that this also results in a changed life. That does not mean excusing sin but being cleansed of it and repenting of it, and walking in the Spirit to crucify the desires of the flesh.

This by no means indicates any of us are sinless, or anything other than sinners saved by grace, and living in Him by grace.
 
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tall73

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In addition, I think your question is the real question facing Christianity right now. How should sins be dealt with IN the church.

I Corinthians makes it clear that we are not to judge those outside the church. There is no reason to expect those who do not consider themselves Christian to live according to Christian values. They would have no reason to do so. However, we are to judge those in the church.

1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—
1Co 5:10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."


So this lays down the principle that those who call themselves Christians are in fact to be judged when they engage in grave, persistent, non-repentant sin.

Even here though the goal is always redemptive. If they repent, great, that is what we hope for. If they do not then even removal of fellowship was meant to wake them up to the gravity of their situation.


2Th 3:13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good.
2Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
2Th 3:16 Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in every way. The Lord be with you all.



And if they repent after a public removal from fellowship, then the church should also be clear on their public restoration so that they may move on from thinking only of their sin, and welcome them again as a fellow Christian.

2Co 2:5 Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure—not to put it too severely—to all of you.
2Co 2:6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough,
2Co 2:7 so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.
2Co 2:8 So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him.
2Co 2:9 For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything.
2Co 2:10 Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,
2Co 2:11 so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

The goal is always to restore the erring one.


Gal 6:1 Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.




 
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In regards to false teachers, rebuke is necessary:

Tit 1:7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
Tit 1:8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.
Tit 1:9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
 
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And ultimately God will deal with false teachers who bring the truth into disrepute.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.



and

2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
 
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football5680

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I agree with you. God will condemn any so called leader who takes part in this willingly. The Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin but some people will delude themselves and attempt to cast doubt to escape from this clear teaching. Regardless of this fact, there is absolutely no precedent for gay marriage in the Bible, in Jewish history or in Christian history. Marriage has only ever been between a man and a woman so there is nothing these people could use to defend themselves.
 
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Leevo

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I agree with you. God will condemn any so called leader who takes part in this willingly. The Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin but some people will delude themselves and attempt to cast doubt to escape from this clear teaching. Regardless of this fact, there is absolutely no precedent for gay marriage in the Bible, in Jewish history or in Christian history. Marriage has only ever been between a man and a woman so there is nothing these people could use to defend themselves.

Exactly. I pray for these men and women.
 
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Leevo

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And ultimately God will deal with false teachers who bring the truth into disrepute.

2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.
2Pe 2:3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.



and

2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
2Pe 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing,
2Pe 2:16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.
2Pe 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."


I loved your answer. It was excellent. Thank you so much.
 
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miamited

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Hi leevo,

I'd agree with you, but not only those pastors, leaders and teachers of the way who condone sexual immorality, but also those who teach that evolutionary or big bang 'science' is how we got here today. There are a myriad of doctrines spoken of in the Scriptures that various of these false teachers and prophets will stray from in their teaching. Some pastors teach that all will be saved. Some teach that a person has to pass through purgatory to be cleansed. Some teach that we should venerate and uphold Mary as somehow not who she really was.

So, I would just add that there is a long, long list of issues where the children of God will find false prophets and teachers are teaching lies. And no, I would not support or worship with any of them.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Faithfulandtrue

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I agree with you. God will condemn any so called leader who takes part in this willingly. The Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin but some people will delude themselves and attempt to cast doubt to escape from this clear teaching. Regardless of this fact, there is absolutely no precedent for gay marriage in the Bible, in Jewish history or in Christian history. Marriage has only ever been between a man and a woman so there is nothing these people could use to defend themselves.
AMEN! :)
 
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Faithfulandtrue

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I agree homosexuality is wrong and anyone who allows them to sin against God in a church WILL be condemned for that. I'm glad to see that you are standing up for God and not joining those churches. I have a bunch of "churches" in my city too that don't follow God but the world.
 
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Leevo

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I agree homosexuality is wrong and anyone who allows them to sin against God in a church WILL be condemned for that. I'm glad to see that you are standing up for God and not joining those churches. I have a bunch of "churches" in my city too that don't follow God but the world.

Amen
 
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Leevo

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Hi leevo,

I'd agree with you, but not only those pastors, leaders and teachers of the way who condone sexual immorality, but also those who teach that evolutionary or big bang 'science' is how we got here today. There are a myriad of doctrines spoken of in the Scriptures that various of these false teachers and prophets will stray from in their teaching. Some pastors teach that all will be saved. Some teach that a person has to pass through purgatory to be cleansed. Some teach that we should venerate and uphold Mary as somehow not who she really was.

So, I would just add that there is a long, long list of issues where the children of God will find false prophets and teachers are teaching lies. And no, I would not support or worship with any of them.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

You know, I recently joined the Catholic church, this year actually. Couldn't help but feel that maybe you saw my signature and that I was Catholic when you said what you said. I am however having doubts about it, not for the reasons you listed though. I was actually in the middle of trying to find where God wants me now (I thought it was the Catholic church, but I am thinking he may have just sent me there to teach me something), when this all started and my faith is at a standstill at the moment because the pastor of my old church won't answer or make a statement about it. Either he hasn't read my message or just doesn't want to answer. However, I have a meeting with him in about a week and a half, I plan on talking with him about the Catholic church and I am gonna ask him if he would consider marrying a homosexual couple if he was approached by one, because if he would even consider it, I don't think I can attend that church in good conscience.
 
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miamited

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You know, I recently joined the Catholic church, this year actually. Couldn't help but feel that maybe you saw my signature and that I was Catholic when you said what you said. I am however having doubts about it, not for the reasons you listed though. I was actually in the middle of trying to find where God wants me now (I thought it was the Catholic church, but I am thinking he may have just sent me there to teach me something), when this all started and my faith is at a standstill at the moment because the pastor of my old church won't answer or make a statement about it. Either he hasn't read my message or just doesn't want to answer. However, I have a meeting with him in about a week and a half, I plan on talking with him about the Catholic church and I am gonna ask him if he would consider marrying a homosexual couple if he was approached by one, because if he would even consider it, I don't think I can attend that church in good conscience.

Hi leevo,

Yes, I did see your affiliation with the Catholic organization, but that isn't why I wrote what I wrote. I wrote what I wrote because I believe it to be the truth. There really is a plethora of false teachings among what men call the body of the 'church'. Just between you, me and the lamp post, I do believe that the Catholic organization is one of the greatest purveyors of such teachings, while holding themselves up as 'the church'.

Many on these threads from time to time speak of having joined with the Catholic organization. They believe that what is taught there is the truth and I believe that we don't take nearly as seriously as Jesus meant it when he told us to be on our guard against false teachings. Many of those who convert to catholicism speak of admiring and feeling more comfortable with the pomp and circumstance of the worship practices and I can certainly understand that we do like to feel comfortable with where we worship, but...

Our desire to feel comfortable with particular practices should never supersede our knowledge of the truth.

Many like the idea that the Catholic organization has been around for many, many centuries, and truly it has been. But, then so has Baal worship and if our desire to join with an organization is because they have a long and illustrious history I would again caution that age of practices and history doesn't determine truth either. The Scriptures are the sole truth for which we can seek and search through for answers. The Holy Spirit is the sole giver of truth outside of the Scriptures. Just as Jesus wouldn't take the testimony of men, neither will I. For he knew what was in a man's heart. Man is a liar! That's really all there is to it and when we begin to trust the words of men to tell us the truth of God, we're going to get into trouble.

I believe that any real and reasonable study of the history of the leaders of the catholic organization will cause one to certainly question how it can be the one true church upon the earth and have so much disgusting history. Further back in history we find that even the then sitting popes were disgusting and wicked men. Now, they may be better today in their operation of the organization, but a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Leevo

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Hi leevo,

Yes, I did see your affiliation with the Catholic organization, but that isn't why I wrote what I wrote. I wrote what I wrote because I believe it to be the truth. There really is a plethora of false teachings among what men call the body of the 'church'. Just between you, me and the lamp post, I do believe that the Catholic organization is one of the greatest purveyors of such teachings, while holding themselves up as 'the church'.

Many on these threads from time to time speak of having joined with the Catholic organization. They believe that what is taught there is the truth and I believe that we don't take nearly as seriously as Jesus meant it when he told us to be on our guard against false teachings. Many of those who convert to catholicism speak of admiring and feeling more comfortable with the pomp and circumstance of the worship practices and I can certainly understand that we do like to feel comfortable with where we worship, but...

Our desire to feel comfortable with particular practices should never supersede our knowledge of the truth.

Many like the idea that the Catholic organization has been around for many, many centuries, and truly it has been. But, then so has Baal worship and if our desire to join with an organization is because they have a long and illustrious history I would again caution that age of practices and history doesn't determine truth either. The Scriptures are the sole truth for which we can seek and search through for answers. The Holy Spirit is the sole giver of truth outside of the Scriptures. Just as Jesus wouldn't take the testimony of men, neither will I. For he knew what was in a man's heart. Man is a liar! That's really all there is to it and when we begin to trust the words of men to tell us the truth of God, we're going to get into trouble.

I believe that any real and reasonable study of the history of the leaders of the catholic organization will cause one to certainly question how it can be the one true church upon the earth and have so much disgusting history. Further back in history we find that even the then sitting popes were disgusting and wicked men. Now, they may be better today in their operation of the organization, but a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted


Amen Brother. I joined for the history of the church and I did actually believe the doctrine. I do still believe in some of it, others I find a little more complicated. I originally felt that the worship style of the Mass was how we should be doing things and that was it. It wasn't until I watched A.D. The Bible continues that I started to second guess my beliefs. I know that they tried to get it as accurate as they could, and seeing Peter preach so passionately in the show made me think that maybe the Catholic church doesn't have it all right after all. Maybe the apostles did things more like the Evangelical Protestants and Baptists... I still am confused in my faith because of all this, but will more than likely find myself leaving the Catholic church, as long as my pastor at my Evangelical church will not marry homosexual couples and stand firm on the Bible. If he won't follow what the Bible clearly teaches, I will have to find me a new church. Which is an entirely new issue for my faith in and of itself.
 
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VegasGeorge

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Marriage is a holy sacrament, in fact, it is one of the seven sacraments recognized by the Catholic Church. I know that, and I'm not even Catholic! As a sacrament it is a sign of Devine Grace. In performing a marriage, the priest or clergy place God's own imprimatur on the marriage relationship. As has been said here, homosexual acts are clearly and unequivocally condemned as sin in scripture. God's Word forbids it. So, there is no way that any purported clergy could provide a Christian marriage between same sex couples. It just couldn't happen. And any attempt by churches or clergy to marry same sex couples would be blasphemous and heretical, and accomplish nothing in the eyes of God.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I agree homosexuality is wrong and anyone who allows them to sin against God in a church WILL be condemned for that. I'm glad to see that you are standing up for God and not joining those churches. I have a bunch of "churches" in my city too that don't follow God but the world.

Who is the person that WILL be condemned? Let's remember that ONLY God can decide who He condemns, so what is your scripture to present. Also, if this sin has been repented for, does that change the 'condemnation' in your opinion?

Is your position that anyone who would marry homosexuals does not follow God as a church? I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree, just trying to understand your position.
 
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Leevo

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I cannot speak for Faithfulandtrue but this is my opinion on this:


Who is the person that WILL be condemned? Let's remember that ONLY God can decide who He condemns, so what is your scripture to present.

The person being condemned is those that commit sin and those that endorse it and preach it as "love". When scripture clearly tells us otherwise. Love is not accepting sin, it is telling someone they are in sin and bringing them to the forgiveness of Christ through repentance.

Also, if this sin has been repented for, does that change the 'condemnation' in your opinion?

True repentance comes with a change of heart... The person would turn from the sin and fight it at every turn. They would only want to live for Christ. This is why I say there is no such thing as an "LGBT Christian." It is condemned as sin in scripture, therefore if they truly repented they would be a "struggling Christian," they would want to stop sinning and turn from it to live for Christ. They would try to fight off any temptations they can. We are all struggling Christians, we all have sin that we fight everyday.

Is your position that anyone who would marry homosexuals does not follow God as a church? I'm not saying whether I agree or disagree, just trying to understand your position.

I would say that is a valid position. They are teaching contrary to scripture. Therefore teaching contrary to God and his word. I would not say that the congregation of the church is wrong, but the leadership of it is and their congregation should be made aware so that people who do adhere to the truth of scripture can make the decision to find a truly Christ centered church.
 
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The person being condemned is those that commit sin and those that endorse it and preach it as "love". When scripture clearly tells us otherwise. Love is not accepting sin, it is telling someone they are in sin and bringing them to the forgiveness of Christ through repentance.

So, there is a couple in your church and your pastor has spoken to them about their lifestyle being sinful. Then what?

If a pastor kicks sinners out of church, he or she is not a very good pastor. If they are coming there to truly hear about Jesus Christ, it would be sinful to turn them away. Would you ask them to leave and not come anymore to your church?

Your response is a common response, then what?

What if you asked them not to come and the next weekend they showed up again?
 
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ToBeLoved

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True repentance comes with a change of heart... The person would turn from the sin and fight it at every turn. They would only want to live for Christ. This is why I say there is no such thing as an "LGBT Christian." It is condemned as sin in scripture, therefore if they truly repented they would be a "struggling Christian," they would want to stop sinning and turn from it to live for Christ. They would try to fight off any temptations they can. We are all struggling Christians, we all have sin that we fight everyday.

Repentance comes with a change of heart, but the flesh is weak. Ask 85% of Christian men who view inappropriate content. I'm sure they repent each time.

See, but it is not our place to judge if someone has truly repented. God tells us in His Word that only He knows the hearts of man. It is really not for another Christian to even 'speculate' about repentance after someone says they have done so. After the person has repented, they are forgiven and Jesus casts that sin as far as the east is from the west. That is why the Holy Spirit is the convicter of sin, the one that convicts each person.

The object of the story is that what Jesus has forgiven, we have no right to mention.
 
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