Today's Ruling

mkgal1

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Romans 1 is clear that those who Paul was writing of actually desired that sort of thing. Men burned in their lust for that which was against nature. Both man and woman experienced these 'vile passions.' Trying to read this idea that the people weren't gay, but straight is really an anachronistic way of reading the text.

You may want to read up on lust, then....because that's actually what commonly occurs. It's not unusual for married men (married and attracted to women) to have their sex addiction escalate to the point of having sex with other men (not in a loving context, either)---purely lust. It's not the person they're attracted to (that's natural).....it's the sex....the pleasure...the high (which, I believe, is what makes it "unnatural" and not what God intended sex to be used as). The other person is merely a means to an end...and their humanity doesn't really matter. There's a verse: 2nd Timothy 3:4 that, IMO, applies to this.
 
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DZoolander

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It's not unusual for married men (married and attracted to women) to have their sex addiction escalate to the point of having sex with other men (not in a loving context, either)---purely lust. It's not the person they're attracted to (that's natural).....it's the sex....the pleasure...the high (which, I believe, is what makes it "unnatural" and not what God intended sex to be used as). The other person is merely a means to an end...and their humanity doesn't really matter. There's a verse: 2nd Timothy 3:4 that, IMO, applies to this.

lol - what?

I can't imagine any scenario where I would get so worked up that I'd look at a guy and go "okay, that's good enough for now"
 
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Winepress777

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MkGal1, it's hard to fathom how you can believe as you do on this, considering some of your stances on other issues.

Do you care what God has revealed in the Bible? Don't you see what marriage is in the Bible, in the creation, that God made male and female. He put a picture of the Gospel in creation when He created man and woman, and two were one flesh. This speaks of Christ and the church. This is depicted through male and female. The union is not between two christ's or two churches.

Doesn't it bother you that a righteous and holy God decreed that men who had sexual relations with other men in Israel be put to death? That was the same penalty for adultery, idolatry, murder, and sex with animals. Doesn't it effect your thinking on this issue, that the Bible calls these homosexual activities, done by consenting individuals acting in the lusts of their own hearts to be given up to 'dishonorable passions', performing 'shameless acts' and doing what is 'contrary to nature'? Biology should teach us a few things.

How can you oppose polygamy or adultery or premarital sex if you endorse this sort of wickedness?

Love does not delight in iniquity but rejoices in the truth.

There is good news in verse 11 for those who are caught up in this,

I Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(ESV)

Endorsing and enabling people in their wickedness is not the way to show the love of God.
Amen. Concerning this subject, for Christians and sodomites both, I had to bump this post up, as it is the finest post in the entire thread that I recommend all to consider again. Nothing by anyone can be argued against the simple facts, and as pointed out, there is hope for the sodomite who repents and is washed and sanctified and justified in Christ. And as all sins are offensive to the Holy Spirit in us, we authentically hate the idea of turning back to them.

Quote LinkH

Do you care what God has revealed in the Bible? Don't you see what marriage is in the Bible, in the creation, that God made male and female. He put a picture of the Gospel in creation when He created man and woman, and two were one flesh. This speaks of Christ and the church. This is depicted through male and female. The union is not between two christ's or two churches.

Doesn't it bother you that a righteous and holy God decreed that men who had sexual relations with other men in Israel be put to death? That was the same penalty for adultery, idolatry, murder, and sex with animals. Doesn't it effect your thinking on this issue, that the Bible calls these homosexual activities, done by consenting individuals acting in the lusts of their own hearts to be given up to 'dishonorable passions', performing 'shameless acts' and doing what is 'contrary to nature'? Biology should teach us a few things.

How can you oppose polygamy or adultery or premarital sex if you endorse this sort of wickedness?

Love does not delight in iniquity but rejoices in the truth.

There is good news in verse 11 for those who are caught up in this,

I Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(ESV)

Endorsing and enabling people in their wickedness is not the way to show the love of God.
 
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mkgal1

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lol - what?

I can't imagine any scenario where I would get so worked up that I'd look at a guy and go "okay, that's good enough for now"

Strange. I was hoping you would.

I don't know if I really *can* elaborate more than that. What I'm referring to is a sexual perversion (which is FAR from what our courts recently ruled in favor of). I *do* believe it's closer to those Bible verses, though.

EZoo.....you probably can't imagine because I doubt you'd be one to get caught up in sex addiction (or any perversion).

Likewise.....I doubt any of us can imagine going to the temple each week--or however often they went-- and having sex with the temple prostitutes as a way to get closer to a perceived deity (but that was the culture during biblical times....from what I understand).
 
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sdmsanjose

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BY EZ

I think most national polls now show that the majority of people support the idea that gay people ought be able to get legally married (in a courthouse). More and more states were allowing it - and the trend was obvious.

That's democracy. What was the "Christian" response? Extraordinary legal gymnastics like talking about trying to pass constitutional amendments defining marriage as "one man/one woman".



For many years most national polls showed that the majority of people DID NOT “….support the idea that gay people ought be able to get legally married (in a courthouse). More and more states were against it - and the trend was obvious.”

Using your own logic, you are not giving the bible believing Christian the same right that the LBGT used. When the LBGT had the national polls against them they did not stop their political efforts.

LGBT social movements

LGBT movements organized today are made up of a wide range of political activism and cultural activity, including lobbying, street marches, social groups, media, art, and research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_social_movements



You made the below statement about the bible believing Christians but said nothing about the LBGT community that did the same thing. EZ do you think that your disagreement with the bible believing Christians is affecting you in that you have a bias against their activities?


By EZ

That's the exact opposite of "one man, one voice, one vote". That's people being butthurt about the fact they aren't going to get their way - and trying ignore the will of the people. A constitutional amendment means "We don't care what people think - it's illegal anyhow."


Why should the bible believing Christians “BUTT OUT” when the opposing view people and LGBT groups do NOT butt out and do the same thing?
Does the Bible believing Christian have the same right as the LBGT?
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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NothingIsImpossible

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I agree Link about some people here. This will hopefully be my last post in this topic. Some people here seem to think they are holier then thou. The fact of the matter if biblicaly, as in its in the bible and says it plainly, as in theres no way to say its wrong unless your trying to twist Gods words....

Homosexuality is a sin. The verses support it. There are many (http://www.openbible.info/topics/homosexuality). Its a fact.

The bible says we can correct/rebuke (http://www.truechristianity.com/christian/judgement.htm) other brothers or sisters in the Lord. Which is why many ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit at that time and in in anger quickly come up with the judging verse as an excuse to being told anything. This also is from pride, pride as a christian because you don't want to admit you may be wrong. Heck I was the same way back when I was rebelling. BUT it also says if we can't get them to see the error in their way then we leave it with God because we have planted a seed in their mind. So if we continue to correct them then we also end up being judgmental. We have to let it go.

I stated most of this before but I am surprised by some people here and not by others. Usually we can for the most part agree on things. But these big issues really show which side of the Lord people are on. I can't say I am surprised though. The bible also says when confronted with something will we give into peer pressure and agree with the world or will we bare our cross and take the lashing from the world because we stick to our guns. The fact more and more christians seem like the world is biblical in the end times. Its why it says many in the end will stand before God and He will say "Go away, I do not know you!".

So before we get mad at each other, its best to just drop the fighting because at some point it will leave ill will on both sides and in the future you may look at that person you were friendly with as a enemy. And ignoring people is just a bad idea unless they are really overboard. On my old account I only had 3 people blocked. None of which were from this section. With all this said I'll leave this topic alone because I feel seeds have been planted and that this topic may be shut down soon.
 
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One thing people seem to be forgetting in this discussion...the difference between LEGAL marriage and a religious marriage. By harping on "Christian" marriage, the posters are implying that not only is same sex marriage immoral, so is any marriage officiated by anyone other than a Christian clergyman. By implication, then, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Ba'hai marriages are not moral either and neither are the ones that were officiated by a judge, justice of the peace or marriage commissioner.

In the United States, marriage is defined as a legal contract between two consenting parties of legal age that conveys certain rights and privileges. That's it. The 14th amendment to the constitution provides for EQUAL protections under the law. Marriage is a legal contract. It MAY be celebrated in a church, but that is not required for the marriage to be legally valid.

So...if you're opposed to seeing same sex couples have the same legal protections as opposite sex couples, and all you can base it on is the bible, you're missing the point. The US Constitution is the rule of law in the United States, not the bible. We do not live in a theocracy.
 
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LinkH

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It's not unusual for married men (married and attracted to women) to have their sex addiction escalate to the point of having sex with other men (not in a loving context, either)---purely lust. It's not the person they're attracted to (that's natural).....it's the sex....the pleasure...the high (which, I believe, is what makes it "unnatural" and not what God intended sex to be used as). The other person is merely a means to an end...and their humanity doesn't really matter. There's a verse: 2nd Timothy 3:4 that, IMO, applies to this.
lol - what?

I can't imagine any scenario where I would get so worked up that I'd look at a guy and go "okay, that's good enough for now"

I was thinking something similar when I read the post. There's probably some married men out there like that, but I don't see it as typical. I understand how the average married man might be tempted by an attractive female, but another man? I don't see the appeal.

I think the main reason many Christians bring up inappropriate behavior with animals when LGBT apologists try to argue that homosexual behavior is not sinful is because both homosexual sex and inappropriate behavior with animals are condemned in the same passage of scripture. But I think the other reason may be that a lot of guys find other guys no more appealing sexually than an animal. And I do believe that it is a normal reaction to find homosexual behavior unappealing and repulsive. The Bible calls it 'against nature.'

I had a conversation with a street evangelist once who said he got a word of knowledge for a man that he'd been struggling with homosexual thoughts, that the man had been watching inappropriate content and watching men when he watched then do stuff to women, and that there was a demonic influence as well. There may be some segment of the population that through genetics or spiritual heritage is more likely to be attracted to the same gender. But for most people, I believe it feels rather unnatural unless they've been conditioned that way through going deeper and deeper into inappropriate content or acting out sexual perversion, molestation, or maybe accepting the propaganda they get from TV, the movies, media, and certain posters on places like CF.
 
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LinkH

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You may want to read up on lust, then....because that's actually what commonly occurs. It's not unusual for married men (married and attracted to women) to have their sex addiction escalate to the point of having sex with other men (not in a loving context, either)---purely lust. It's not the person they're attracted to (that's natural).....it's the sex....the pleasure...the high (which, I believe, is what makes it "unnatural" and not what God intended sex to be used as). The other person is merely a means to an end...and their humanity doesn't really matter. There's a verse: 2nd Timothy 3:4 that, IMO, applies to this.

The word translated 'lust' is a word that means desire, and in the New Testament, it is generally used in contexts that refer to illegitimate desire, desire that if acted on, would be sinful. The word for 'lust' shows up in the Greek LXX of the ten commandments in 'thou shalt not covet.' Paul wrote, "I would have not known lust if the law had not said 'thou shalt not covet.'"

I think you need to read up on lusts. Lusts isn't about the other person's humanity mattering or not. A pair of adulterers could care deeply about each other and each other's humanity. When David was with Bathsheba, he may have been very caring and gentle with her, not pressuring her to do anything she did not want to. He may have genuinely appreciated not only her beauty and her femininity, but also her personality and many different aspects of who she was as an individual. She may have admired him and cared deeply for him.

But she wasn't his wife. He'd coveted her and he'd committed adultery, physically, by sleeping with her, with the wife of one of his faithful knights who showed himself perhaps to be more committed to the army than David the king. Whether David was gentle and caring toward Bathsheba and respected her greatly as a person and had all the attitudes that a woman would desire in a husband, or if he was just using her for sex, either way, it was lust, and it was sin.

A woman in the news decided to marry her long lost father and move with him to New Jersey where adults practicing incest are not prosecuted. They may feel the same tender feelings for each other as a newly married couple. What man who is a decent human being does not love his daughter, want to sacrifice for her. And a daughter should love her father, too.

The question is, is it a legitimate desire to want to have sex with a partner in adultery or to want to marry and have sex with one's daughter or father? They may have the same emotions and attitudes toward one another that normal married couples may have. No matter what their feelings, their desires are lustful, because they are forbidden.

And neither of them measure up to the I Corinthians 13 kind of love, which does not delight in iniquity but rejoices in the truth. If they had this kind of love for each other, each would not want the other to sin against God. David would not want Bathsheba to sin. The daughter would not want her father to sin by committing incest and the daughter would not want his daughter to sin by committing incest.

'Love' that leaves God out of the equation is lacking. That's the problem with homosexuality. No matter how loving their feelings are for each other, it's not the kind of love we see in I Corinthians 13, which does not delight in iniquity. No matter if the feelings are like a normal opposite sex newly we couple who care deeply for one another, the right kind of love does not entice one's brother to stumble into sinning against God.

mkgal1, what would you say to the idea of two twin brothers who decided they were homosexual and wanted to marry one another. They couldn't produce children with each other, since neither of them produces eggs, so they don't have to worry about having children with genetic defects. Should these two be allowed to marry? Would you want your pastor or priest to perform the ceremony? Would you attend? Would you want to bake the cake?
 
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DZoolander

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You made the below statement about the bible believing Christians but said nothing about the LBGT community that did the same thing. EZ do you think that your disagreement with the bible believing Christians is affecting you in that you have a bias against their activities?


I've given some thought to your question. To be honest, I'm not sure how to answer that. The zeal with which they feel passionately about this issue does strike at some chords in me - but it's primarily insofar as I don't really understand WHY they feel so passionately about it.

The reason I feel the way I do about the issue of gay marriage is pretty straightforward. Do I believe that gays ought to have the same property rights as I enjoy simply by virtue of being married? Absolutely. Do I believe that gays ought to have the same rights with respect to programs like social security that I enjoy simply by virtue of being married? Absolutely. Do I believe that gays ought to have the same sort of visitation rights in hospitals, or authority in such situations, as I enjoy simply by virtue of being married? Absolutely. All of the civil benefits that I enjoy as a consequence of simply having said "I do" I feel is unjust to deny gay people who would also like to enjoy them.

...and do I believe they have suffered due to the inability to gain those things? I do. I also believe that redressing those issues is a fair and just thing to do. I don't believe that gays ought to suffer financial burdens that would be eliminated in probate situations simply due to their sexual orientation. I don't believe that gays ought to be denied access to their loved ones during illness due to their sexual orientation. I don't believe they ought suffer any of those types of things - especially if it could be easily remedied.

...or in other words - if you allowed them to obtain the legal status of "married".

And that's really all that it is. No more, no less.

Now I suppose you could argue (with some merit on most of it - but not all) - that they could obtain all of those things through separate legal actions. If they went through the effort of setting up trusts, assigning power of attorney in applicable situations, etc...they could obtain MOST of the rights that I enjoy simply by virtue of the fact that I stumbled onto an alter and said "I do" - but my gut feeling is "Why? Why make them go through all of that to get what would otherwise be so easy to obtain?"

To protect a word?

In my mind - that's all it is.

To that end - I reject the idea that the idea of marriage, or the word itself, is owned or controlled by the judeo-christian culture. Once people started taking it away from being a purely religious thing and started bestowing rights and privileges in the civil arena unique to that status - it ceases being purely a religious institution in my eyes.

So long as the state isn't forcing churches to go against their faith by performing the ceremonies - and so long as it remains solely within the realm of governmental recognition - I have no problems with it....and I don't understand why religious people care so passionately about what the gov't recognizes either. Who cares what they call themselves? Nobody is talking about forcing you to accept their unions or compelling churches to perform those services. So far as the church is concerned - they could be calling themselves martians.

At least that's how I look at it.





Why should the bible believing Christians “BUTT OUT” when the opposing view people and LGBT groups do NOT butt out and do the same thing?
Does the Bible believing Christian have the same right as the LBGT?

Of course they do - but honestly (and I could be wrong) I do not remember the hyperbolic nonsense about constitutional amendments - talking about changing the law of the land so that supreme court justices could be recalled - etc...coming from the LGBT side. My passive observation of their behavior has been that they've adopted more of a "wait it out - the tide is turning" type of approach.
 
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sdmsanjose

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  1. . Why should the bible believing Christians “BUTT OUT” when the opposing view people and LGBT groups do NOT butt out and do the same thing?
    Does the Bible believing Christian have the same right as the LBGT?

BY EZ
Of course they do - but honestly (and I could be wrong) I do not remember the hyperbolic nonsense about constitutional amendments - talking about changing the law of the land so that Supreme Court justices could be recalled - etc...coming from the LGBT side. My passive observation of their behavior has been that they've adopted more of a "wait it out - the tide is turning" type of approach.

The LGBT has been filing law suits in many states and actively trying to get courts and judges to change laws for years just like some Bible believing Christians have done; not much difference between them.

This issue is very difficult because you have the state favoring marriage in the tax structure and the other legal matters as EZ has pointed out which the LBGT did not have until now. I see the state as very hypocritical in that the state will give marriage licenses and all the marriage benefits to marriage men and women that are habitual adulters, felons, and even some molesters but in the past denied those advantages to the LBGT community. So from a secular position I have no argument against the LBGT community getting the same benefits as the married adulters, felons, and molesters from the state.

As for the moral question, those that think that their arguments about state rights in a secular state such as the USA, are going to change the Bible believing Christians, from seeing homosexuality as a sin, is completely futile. On moral matters some Christians put the Bible above the USA constitution. There are those that see the homosexual sex as NOT a sin and of course the Christians will never take someone’s philosophy over the Bible. So there you have a conflict that is not going away. The bible believing Christians will probably never quit trying to repeal the same sex marriage act that was passed.

Frankly this homosexual marriage act does not affect me or my family in any way but I do understand the Christians wanting to exercise their right and have the laws on this matter reflect their values in this secular government.

On the other hand, I do not agree with any Christian that takes the approach to condemn the gays to hell and uses an overly judgmental approach. All of us Christians are sinners and what our faith does is to help us to overcome sin and live a better life. The love and grace of our God is what has such an impact on us and is about the only thing that I have ever seen that will change an attitude or belief system. Although it is tempting to get into a debate about these type issues I try and refrain because all the logic and persuasive words that we all use will not change someone’s heart and attitude.
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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Frankly this homosexual marriage act does not affect me or my family in any way

Actually do you work? Pay taxes? Have medical insurance? And so on. Because if you do then this will affect you and your family. Heres an article about things that will change. Alot of it bad for christians. Canadian christians will tell you they also said it would not affect them. But over time they said things changed. The biggest change was if you say something like "Look at that gay couple!" or anything negative about gays, you get in trouble with the law for hate speech. You can even go to a court type setting where they can put you in jail and pay a fine. Financially some things may get a boost economically. But it also means other couples may pay more, people getting help from the government will get their help slashed to less again. So it will affect us all. Even if at first we don't notice it.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/26/livin...l?sr=fb062715nextbattlesamesex1200pVODtopLink
 
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Armoured

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Actually do you work? Pay taxes? Have medical insurance? And so on. Because if you do then this will affect you and your family. Heres an article about things that will change. Alot of it bad for christians. Canadian christians will tell you they also said it would not affect them. But over time they said things changed. The biggest change was if you say something like "Look at that gay couple!" or anything negative about gays, you get in trouble with the law for hate speech. You can even go to a court type setting where they can put you in jail and pay a fine. Financially some things may get a boost economically. But it also means other couples may pay more, people getting help from the government will get their help slashed to less again. So it will affect us all. Even if at first we don't notice it.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/26/livin...l?sr=fb062715nextbattlesamesex1200pVODtopLink
First of all, America doesn't have hate speech laws, second, the SCOTUS ruling explicitly said people's right to say what they like about gays is protected by the first amendment. So you can relax.
 
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Armoured

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  1. . Why should the bible believing Christians “BUTT OUT” when the opposing view people and LGBT groups do NOT butt out and do the same thing?
    Does the Bible believing Christian have the same right as the LBGT?
What, specifically, do you think LGBT people should be "butting out" from?
 
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mkgal1, what would you say to the idea of two twin brothers who decided they were homosexual and wanted to marry one another. They couldn't produce children with each other, since neither of them produces eggs, so they don't have to worry about having children with genetic defects. Should these two be allowed to marry? Would you want your pastor or priest to perform the ceremony? Would you attend? Would you want to bake the cake?
Incest is illegal.
 
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