Hate the Religion - not the Religious

Robban

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Seems like God could have merely said that instead of stressing everybody out. If the Jewish sages are correct, God's test caused Abraham's wife Sara to have a heart attack.

At least you did not fall asleep,
 
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smaneck

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Sages, Masters, there are thousands of stories,

Can you tell me what you ate for breakfast on the 11/7 1978?

Nope, but I'm much better at citing sources. At least the book if not the page number. For instance I can tell you that the Qur'anic story about Abraham busting all of the idols in his father's shop can be found in the Midrash literature as well, though I couldn't tell you exactly where. Actually I can, because I just googled it and found the story:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_and_the_Idol_Shop

See? Easy.

I even found a source for your own story. It is from Rashi's commentary.

http://coatofmanycolors.net/2012/05/31/chayei-sarah-the-life-and-death-of-sarah/
 
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smaneck

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I don't tend to take misrash literally. Gets you into trouble to do so.

Apparently Rashi claims Satan told Sarah that Abraham had sacrificed Isaac and that is what caused her to have a heart attack. Of course, Rashi's commentary reflects a much later conception of Satan than we find in the Tanakh.
 
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Robban

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Nope, but I'm much better at citing sources. At least the book if not the page number. For instance I can tell you that the Qur'anic story about Abraham busting all of the idols in his father's shop can be found in the Midrash literature as well, though I couldn't tell you exactly where. Actually I can, because I just googled it and found the story:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_and_the_Idol_Shop

See? Easy.

I even found a source for your own story. It is from Rashi's commentary.

I know the story of Abraham busting the idols without google.

So what,s new pussycat?

http://coatofmanycolors.net/2012/05/31/chayei-sarah-the-life-and-death-of-sarah/
 
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cloudyday2

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I don't tend to take misrash literally. Gets you into trouble to do so.

You can't take Genesis literally either, because it is plenty disturbing without the embellishments of midrash.

So if we view the story of the binding of Isaac as myth, what is the message of this myth? I don't think the story matches your message ("Unlike the gods of the nations surrounding you, I do not require the blood and life of your children."). No, the message I hear is: "Never question God - even if His instructions seem evil, insane, unenlightened, etc."
 
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LoAmmi

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You can't take Genesis literally either, because it is plenty disturbing without the embellishments of midrash.

So if we view the story of the binding of Isaac as myth, what is the message of this myth? I don't think the story matches your message ("Unlike the gods of the nations surrounding you, I do not require the blood and life of your children."). No, the message I hear is: "Never question God - even if His instructions seem evil, insane, unenlightened, etc."
You can believe what you want. I'll trust my faith over random people.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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In its historical context, the message of the Abrahamic sacrifice wasw not what it seems in retrospect.

I think we need to understand the terrible logic behind human sacrifice in order to get to the heart of the matter:

ritually killing a human being, especially one's own child, was the ultimate sacrifice in every sense of the word. If you wanted to appease an angry deity, this was the ultimate way of demonstrating your utter submission. So, if you told people "eh, just take a goat instead", they'd have replied: "what sort of sacrifice is that? How should that compare to or compensate for the great loss of a child?"

And this is where the Abraham myth comes into play. The lesson taught in the story is that it's not about the actual sacrifice - it's about commitment. No person needs to be killed, and a symbolic goat suffices perfectly.

That doesn't seem much of an improvement from a 21st century perspective, as there's still the whole issue with authoritarian morality, blood sacrifices and so forth. But back then, it was pretty revolutionary, and a HUGE step forwards.
 
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cloudyday2

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Here is an interesting article on the origins of sacrifice. It seems to be a widespread idea in early religions all over the world. I imagine a tribe of people who asks help from some deity for the hunt. After the hunt it would be naturally to want to give a share of animal to the deity - just like any other member of the tribe. If you believe the deity lives in the clouds, then you would turn the meat into smoke. If you believe the deity lives underground, then you might put the meat in a cave. (These are just my own thoughts. The article has some more developed ideas.)
Sacrifices revert to the most primitive forms of religion—ancestral animism and totemism. The sacrifice is a meal offered to the dead member of the family, who meets his own at the feast. As the honored guest, he is entitled to the choicest portions of the meal.
...
The primitive notion of sacrifice is that it is a gift, which is the meaning of the Hebrew word "minḥah." During the period of cannibalism the gift naturally takes the form of human victims, human flesh being the choice article of food during the prevalence of anthropophagism. It is also that which by preference or necessity is placed on the table of the deity. Traces of human sacrifices abound in the Biblical records.
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Blood belonged to Yhwh; no man might eat it (I Sam. xiv. 32-34; Lev. xvii. 3 et seq.). The blood was the soul. When animals were substituted for human victims, blood still remained the portion of the Deity. No subtle theological construction of a philosophy of expiation is required to explain this prominent trait (see S. I. Curtiss, "Primitive Semitic Religion," passim). The blood on the lintel (the threshold covenant) at the Passover was proof that that which the Destroyer was seeking—viz., life—had not been withheld. The rite of Circumcision (Ex. iii. 24) appears to have been originally instituted for the same purpose.
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The donative character of the Hebrew sacrifices appears also from the material used, which is always something to eat or drink, the common dietary articles of the Israelites. The phrase "food of God" (Lev. xxi. 6, 8, 17, 21; xxii. 25; Ezek. xliv. 7) proves the use for which such offerings were intended; and Ps. l. 13 also reveals this intention.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12984-sacrifice
 
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outsidethecamp

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When some religious person does something evil, stupid, or whatever, I often hear advice such as "don't condemn the religion; those people weren't really following Islam, Christianity, ...".

My opinion is the opposite. People are shaped by circumstances. Nobody is innately good or innately evil. Under slightly different circumstances, Joseph Stalin might have become a priest or a baseball commentator or almost anything. Society shapes the individual. When we see people from a certain society behaving badly, we cannot simply blame the individuals; we must blame their society. When religion is an important part of their society, then we must blame their religion.

Obviously we need to punish individuals, because that deters misbehavior. However, we need to look at the true causes of misbehavior - psychological, early childhood, poverty, ... and in some cases religion. Blaming the individual is pointless, because it is very possible that nobody has free will.

Jesus did not mince words with the religious Pharisees who derived their character from the Devil.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The true cause of misbehavior comes down to who your spiritual father is.
 
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cloudyday2

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Jesus did not mince words with the religious Pharisees who derived their character from the Devil.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The true cause of misbehavior comes down to who your spiritual father is.

As a Christian, I assume that you believe all true Christians have been born again with a new parent - God? And I assume you believe that everybody else continues with their natural-born parent - Satan?

I am glad you seem to agree that external factors contribute to individual misbehavior. Do you think certain non-Christian religions might be more prone to promote misbehaviors of various kinds? Would you agree that we should criticize these religions for the misbehavior of some of their members that results?

As an example, if we can demonstrate statistically that believing in Islam doubles the probability of domestic abuse relative to believing in atheism, should we criticize Islam? The majority of Muslims do not commit domestic abuse - still just a minority. (BTW, I don't have any statistics showing this; I'm just giving a hypothetical.)
 
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outsidethecamp

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As a Christian, I assume that you believe all true Christians have been born again with a new parent - God? And I assume you believe that everybody else continues with their natural-born parent - Satan?

Yes, from a Christian perspective, all TRUE Christians have been born again and now have God as their Father.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

I am glad you seem to agree that external factors contribute to individual misbehavior.

Eph 2:2 says the "factors" are internal. "The spirit that now worketh IN the children of disobedience."

Jesus says, "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks and outward manifestation of behaviour, is at first conceived internally in the heart. Of course, this all comes about by whose nature we are deriving our character from. Christ or Satan. Man derives his character and behavior from only one of two sources. God or Satan. There is not a third choice and man, being created a derivative creature, cannot stand alone. He is a spiritual being drawing from another spiritual being. If man could stand alone, and choose to be wholly good or wholly evil, then he would be either a god or a devil. But, we are dependent, derivative, creatures. That is how we were created.

Do you think certain non-Christian religions might be more prone to promote misbehaviors of various kinds?

If deception/lies are promoted as truth, it will promote behaviors that are not of Christ's spirit. The behaviors/fruit can look very close but only the Spirit of God residing in an individual can promote the fruit of the Spirit (behaviors and character of Christ). Satan can appear as an "angel of light".

Would you agree that we should criticize these religions for the misbehavior of some of their members that results?

I don't necessarily believe that true believers should criticize non-christian religions because then it appears that they are establishing their own Christianity as a religion and true Christianity is not a religion, it is the living, dynamic being of Christ living in and through men. Now, at the same time, men have taken the Bible and codified it and created many systems of belief out of the Bible and thus have created many "Christian" religions, but in it's simplicity and pureness, true Christianity is not a religion. It is Christ.
 
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smaneck

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As an example, if we can demonstrate statistically that believing in Islam doubles the probability of domestic abuse relative to believing in atheism, should we criticize Islam? The majority of Muslims do not commit domestic abuse - still just a minority. (BTW, I don't have any statistics showing this; I'm just giving a hypothetical.)

If we base our statistics solely on deaths due to domestic violence, the US hasn't been doing so well compared to many Muslim countries. Masihi, in attempting to make Islam look bad stated that there 150 deaths related to domestic violence in Turkey last year. In the US the number is about 1000. We are 4Xs the size of Turkey population-wise. That makes our domestic violence deaths nearly twice that of Turkey.
 
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smaneck

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I don't necessarily believe that true believers should criticize non-christian religions because then it appears that they are establishing their own Christianity as a religion and true Christianity is not a religion, it is the living, dynamic being of Christ living in and through men. Now, at the same time, men have taken the Bible and codified it and created many systems of belief out of the Bible and thus have created many "Christian" religions, but in it's simplicity and pureness, true Christianity is not a religion. It is Christ.

Here we go again. :rolleyes:

There is no historic basis for your assertion that Christianity is not a religion. There is no scriptural basis for your assertion that Christianity is not a religion. You have to twist history, scripture and the dictionary to come to that conclusion. It is just another form of Christian triumphalism.
 
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