Trinitarians: Which part of the Trinity is Jehovah?

AphroditeGoneAwry · Jun 30, 2015

donfish06 said:
It's does not state that Jesus was present with God when everything was created. It says that he did the creating!

The trinity fails to explain the Godhead properly. It leaves is followers with no understanding of the nature of God

ALHYM did the creating and yes, YHWH was a silent witness to the creation, and part of its creation. God is One. Your need to be right and nitpicky is a snare for you.

~Selah

AphroditeGoneAwry · Jun 30, 2015

donfish06 said:
And please give me one scripture that States that Jesus is "part" of God. 3 parts = 3 Separations. That, my friend is paganism

You are not my friend.

YHWH is the most often used name for God. But it translates as I AM WHO I AM. When you read the places it's used, you can begin to discern that Yahweh is a more personable form of God, a bridge between God and man. This is what Jesus is. A rose is a rose is a rose:

"That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." - William Shakespeare

Open Heart · Jul 1, 2015

donfish06 said:
Could you please explain this then:

Are you a modalist?

Open Heart · Jul 1, 2015

AphroditeGoneAwry said:
ALHYM

There are standard transliterations from Hebrew. This one is "Elohim." There is no reason to make up some confusing new way to spell the word.

donfish06 · Jul 1, 2015

AphroditeGoneAwry said:
ALHYM did the creating and yes, YHWH was a silent witness to the creation, and part of its creation. God is One. Your need to be right and nitpicky is a snare for you.

~Selah

Listen to what you are saying. You are saying that ONE created while the other witnesses silently. THAT MAKES TWO. Besides all of that you are completely ignoring the scriptures that state that all things were created BY Him, NOT in front of Him. I'm afraid you have no idea of what ONE means.

The fact that you keep responding to my posts shows your wanting to be right just the same so I guess we have the same snare sir. As far as being nitpicky, my God is nitpicky. I do what He says, not what I want. Show me anywhere in the scriptures where God is NOT PRECISE on EXACTLY how we are to worship him.

donfish06 · Jul 1, 2015

Open Heart said:
Are you a modalist?

No sir. Please refer to my post with the blue heading "how does God reveal himself"

After that, realize that all of God's interaction with us is through Christ. It was Christ who created all things, it was Christ who talked to Moses in the burning bush, and led Israel in the pillar of fire. It was Christ who took on flesh to reveal himself to us. Jesus of Nazareth was not diety just in himself. It was when the spirit of Christ came upon him that made him the manifestation of God. That's why we don't have any record of the 29-30 yrs before his baptism, aside from his birth and him at the temple. Christ = God's expression to his creation. Not a 2nd "person"

Open Heart · Jul 1, 2015

donfish06 said:
No sir. Please refer to my post with the blue heading "how does God reveal himself"

After that, realize that all of God's interaction with us is through Christ. It was Christ who created all things, it was Christ who talked to Moses in the burning bush, and led Israel in the pillar of fire. It was Christ who took on flesh to reveal himself to us. Jesus of Nazareth was not diety just in himself. It was when the spirit of Christ came upon him that made him the manifestation of God. That's why we don't have any record of the 29-30 yrs before his baptism, aside from his birth and him at the temple. Christ = God's expression to his creation. Not a 2nd "person"

Christ did not participate in Creation the same way that the Father did. Christ pre-existed his incarnational birth as God. We have record of his bar mitzvah in Jerusalem at age 12. And yes, there is one God, three persons.

DrBubbaLove · Jul 1, 2015

Donfish,
You mention Gen 2:2 then jump to 2:7. What makes you certain the story picked up in Gen 2 is chronologically "after" what ends in Gen 2:2?
IOW remembering that chapters and verses were added millenniums after these stories were first told, what makes you certain it is not just two different accounts of the creation of the world?

donfish06 · Jul 2, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
Donfish,
You mention Gen 2:2 then jump to 2:7. What makes you certain the story picked up in Gen 2 is chronologically "after" what ends in Gen 2:2?
IOW remembering that chapters and verses were added millenniums after these stories were first told, what makes you certain it is not just two different accounts of the creation of the world?

There is no way to know 100% for sure, but it was written by the same author (Moses), and the fact that God is a spirit, and man was made in his image... makes it look more like that was the case. Think about it... we do not take these bodies with us after we die, therefore these bodies are not really us. We will get new bodies, which our spirits will dwell in.

donfish06 · Jul 2, 2015

Open Heart said:
Christ did not participate in Creation the same way that the Father did. Christ pre-existed his incarnational birth as God. We have record of his bar mitzvah in Jerusalem at age 12. And yes, there is one God, three persons.

Bubba,

From the sound of things, you would interpret what he has said as heretical, yes?

Open Heart · Jul 2, 2015

donfish06 said:
but it was written by the same author (Moses)

What makes you think this when scholars say it was not?

Open Heart · Jul 2, 2015

donfish06 said:
From the sound of things, you would interpret what he has said as heretical, yes?

Yes.

SoldierOfTheKing · Jul 3, 2015

Jesus is YHWH. John 8:58

DrBubbaLove · Jul 3, 2015

donfish06 said:
Bubba,

From the sound of things, you would interpret what he has said as heretical, yes?

No, not on the face of the quote as given. The Father creates THROUGH the Word which is His Son ("through Him all things were made"). Which to me appears or at least could be understood agreeing with what he expressed in that quote.

DrBubbaLove · Jul 3, 2015

lflect

donfish06 said:
There is no way to know 100% for sure, but it was written by the same author (Moses), and the fact that God is a spirit, and man was made in his image... makes it look more like that was the case. Think about it... we do not take these bodies with us after we die, therefore these bodies are not really us. We will get new bodies, which our spirits will dwell in.

Was not asking about authorship of the two stories. It is generally agreed that the written record occurs in the time of Moses, perhaps by Him but at least under his direction or the direction if his immediate successors. It is also generally agreed that aural tradition of this creation story(s) preceded the written record of it by a very long time.

Your depiction/understanding of these verses as presented in this thread requires as a fact that they ARE NOT two stories, but rather one chronological series of events in time. If one is not 100% sure of that fact, then the conclusions reached about the Nature of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) could not be 100%.

The Image part, if I understand the Church/Fathers/orthodox teaching on this matter must be reflected (as images can be) in some part of human nature. Most agree, because He is Spirit and our nature includes a spirit, that whatever it is "reflected" in us of His Image, it would be eternal and good (reflection of He is all Good and Eternal). Because of our Fall, I think most would say (and Saint Paul's discussions reflect on this) we are born with our desires in conflict with our nature - meaning a inclination to not reflect the Image in which we are all made. As our souls and body are not separate parts (anymore than the Three are separate gods) but both together are what make up a whole human. I prefer the view which says both the soul and body are mared (especially in God's eyes) by our sin rather than seeing it as an issue of the flesh only.

IOW loosing our flesh when we die does not make us perfect, at the moment of death the departed soul would have the same relationship with God as that person did just before death. And until resurrection of a new body, as you said, we would still exist as humans, but incomplete until He makes us "new" again (whole humans-flesh and spirit). But we digress off-topic- sorry.

ChetSinger · Jul 4, 2015

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Jesus is YHWH. John 8:58

Yes. Also, in Romans 10 Paul says that calling upon Jesus is fulfilling the prophecy in Joel about calling upon YHWH.

TrevorL · Jul 11, 2015

Greetings donfish06,

Now that you have had a number of responses from Trinitarians, and without much resolving of your question, could I ask how you understand the relationship between Yahweh and David’s Lord after the resurrection of Jesus? The scriptures seem to indicate that Jesus, the Son of God and son of David, is now seated at the right hand of Yahweh, God the Father in heaven.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Acts 2:32-36 (KJV): 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Colossians 3:1 (KJV): If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV): Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 8:1 (KJV): Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Kind regards
Trevor

donfish06 · Jul 11, 2015

TrevorL said:
Greetings donfish06,

Now that you have had a number of responses from Trinitarians, and without much resolving of your question, could I ask how you understand the relationship between Yahweh and David’s Lord after the resurrection of Jesus? The scriptures seem to indicate that Jesus, the Son of God and son of David, is now seated at the right hand of Yahweh, God the Father in heaven.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Acts 2:32-36 (KJV): 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Colossians 3:1 (KJV): If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3 (KJV): Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 8:1 (KJV): Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Kind regards
Trevor

Is Jesus literally sitting at His right hand? Does God HAVE a hand? God is a spirit, and a spirit has no form. "The right hand" represents a place of authority or power.

Psalm 89:13
Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.

Psalm 77:10
And I said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the years of the right hand of the most High.

Psalm 48:10
According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.

Psalm 44:3
For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.

Etc... Many more instances occur. It shows that Jesus was given all that the Father had.

Open Heart · Jul 11, 2015

donfish06 said:
Is Jesus literally sitting at His right hand? Does God HAVE a hand? God is a spirit, and a spirit has no form. "The right hand" represents a place of authority or power.

It's true. The "right hand of the Father" is a figurative expression.

TrevorL · Jul 12, 2015

Greetings again donfish06,

donfish06 said:
Is Jesus literally sitting at His right hand? Does God HAVE a hand? God is a spirit, and a spirit has no form. "The right hand" represents a place of authority or power.
Etc... Many more instances occur. It shows that Jesus was given all that the Father had.

I appreciate your response, but perhaps you have not made your position altogether clear, not only on Psalm 110:1, but also how you understand the relationship between Yahweh, God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ after his resurrection and exaltation. I was relying in part on some of the things that you stated in “The Trinity” thread but I am still confused by some of the things you have stated.

Perhaps your view may be clearer if you answer the following questions:
1. Now that Jesus is in heaven, is Jesus a separate being from God the Father? My impression from The Trinity thread is that you seemed to indicate that Jesus and God the Father were not separate beings

2. Jesus uses the concept of Psalm 110:1 and applies it to the position of the faithful in the future kingdom. Does Jesus’ application to some extent negate your deduction concerning Jesus and God? The faithful will attain a position of authority in the kingdom, but it will not be equal in all aspects with Jesus’ position.
Revelation 3:21 (KJV): To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Kind regards
Trevor

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