What do you believe happens to mans soul, and spirit, when they die? Do they continue to live, or die?
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What do you believe happens to mans soul, and spirit, when they die? Do they continue to live, or die?
razzelflabben
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man, I thought it was just my brain being foggy from allergy reaction, but apparently it is your posting style that has me messed up....what does any of this have to do with what I said and you quoted as if responding to my post?
So, your then trying to assert that Adam and Eve were created without a soul? How then were they humans? Cause scripture says that man is created with three parts, the body, soul, and spirit. In fact, we are commanded to Love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength...that seems to me to be pretty solid evidence that either Adam and Eve were created with a soul (the eternal/spiritual side of man) or they were not created human at all, which is going to be pretty difficult for you to evidence.
So which do you choose? Adam and Eve were created with a soul, thus spiritual, or Adam and Eve were not human at all?
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I said what I said, because you said, man has to be greater then man, to be without sin. My point was, that Adam and Eve who though were created natural, were able to live without sin until they ate from the tree. So, if they could live for a time without sin, how much more a spiritual man, with the fullness of God dwelling in him.
Never said they did not have a soul, in fact somewhere in these posts, I said, they became a living soul, and this was done by the breath of God. This does not mean they have the fullness of God, without measure dwelling in them. They received the breath of life, they were created natural, not spiritual. If you are going to saying Adam was created spiritual, because he received the breath of God, then all beast are spiritual, for they were created with the breath of God, and the fullnes of God dwells in beasts. God tries to show man he has no advantage over the beast, for both were created on the sixth day, both formed from the earth, both received the breath of life.
This is what I was trying to show before when saying there is diversity in the Spirit, as Spirit of wisdom, Spirit of knowledge. Even besides this, scripture teaches us to be filled with the Spirit, meaning there can be a measure of the Spirit.
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razzelflabben
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yep...supernatural power, like the HS power
well, it wasn't hard to live without sin when there was no law to condemn us, now is there
You see, when Adam and Eve sinned, the law came to mankind, a law that we are unable to conform to. Thus sin.
now you are confusing yourself again....one of the problems with trying to claim a new revelation is that you have to evidence it, which you fail time and time again to do....if Adam and Eve had souls, that is eternal nature which btw, is also consistent with being made in the image of God who is a spiritual being, then you were wrong when you said they were natural creatures and not spiritual ones. Now, the comments about Adam and Eve having souls was in response to your claim that they were created natural and not spiritual. Evidence says that they were created both and you testify to that truth here when you say they were created with souls. So we apparently have cleared up one of your misconceptions. Now for another.
As to the issue of a supernatural ability to remain without sin. Your claim is that Adam and Eve could be without sin for a season without a supernatural power....we all can....for example, do you sin every night while you sleep? Of course not, did you sin as a newborn when you cried to be fed? Of course not. But you see, a spotless Lamb had to be without sin at all, not just without sin for a season. Thus a supernatural indwelling was necessary. I get that that destroys your "revelation" but it is simply the truth of scripture. "None are righteous, no not one."
now, you are changing your story to fit your opinion. Remember that man is three parts, the spirit is the breath of life, yet separate from the soul as I pointed out and encouraged you to study on your own in that a proper understanding takes more study than is efficient for this discussion and would in fact take us off topic. So, above you say Adam and Eve were created with a soul, which is spiritual, now you say, no soul just spirit....which are you going with? And if not both natural and spiritual, then how could they possibly be in the nature of God who is spiritual? So, you see, you create more problems then you solve by removing the context of scripture in order to try to justify your human logic. what is more troubling is that you remove logic by doing so.
well since my claim is that Adam was created both mortal and spiritual because God gave him a soul, you are still not listening to what is being said, something you have been accusing me of and yet you evidence yourself to be doing here. It isn't the breath of life aka spirit that makes man a spiritual being, you see, the breath of God is said in scripture to return to God. We know that sadly not all men return to dwell with the Lord, thus we know that the spirit and the soul are not the same thing. Further, scripture says, Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, penetrating as far as the separation of soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the ideas and thoughts of the heart.
Notice there is a separation between soul and spirit, they are not one and the same yet both are eternal. One returns to God, what happens to the other?
I don't even know where you get the idea of the fullness of God dwelling in beasts, much less man, but it would be interesting to know where you get that idea from since you seem obsessed with making it sound as if it is coming from me and it isn't.
and yet He also shows man that He is different from the beasts, because He is created in the image of God, something that none of the other beasts have. This image sets man apart and Gen. even calls man a "very good" creation not just a good one. So again, your logic removes scripture and proves itself to be illogical.
Not sure what your point is again...no one is saying that we the true believers are not filled with the HS. As too spirit of wisdom, spirit of knowledge, etc. there is some disagreement (and rightly so) if this is referring to literal spirits or if it is referring to the manifestation of the spirit to have wisdom, knowledge, etc.
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well, it wasn't hard to live without sin when there was no law to condemn us, now is there
They were not to eat from the tree, was that not a law?
Did you have a soul before you came to God for salvation? Were you a spiritual person, before you came to God, for salvation?
Before you came to God did you have the breath of life in you? Did you have a soul? Where you spiritual? Or, were you a natural man?
1 Corinthians 2:14
Can you receive the anointing of the Spirit, after you turn to God for salvation, and be filled with his Spirit?
Again, you are not hearing, or simply not reading. This is what I said...
I say this in the nicest way, you are not able to hear. And two, I never said that.
If spirit, the breath of life, makes man a living soul, and when man dies, the spirit, breath of life, returns to God, then for man's soul to live on, all souls would also have to return to God, whether good, or evil. How can there be living souls, in some other holding place, if there is no breath of life in them? When it's the breath of life that makes them a living soul?
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razzelflabben
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do we have the law of not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? No, I didn't think so...according to scripture, the law was given when Adam and Eve ate of the tree, before that there was no law, just an instruction to not eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You can play semantics all day long and it won't change the truth of scripture.
first, we are talking about Adam and Eve, not about me, so this question is off topic...secondly, scripture indicates that we all have a soul, it is either dead in sin or alive in righteousness...seems to me you should brush up on your biblical understanding here before trying to argue it.
sure, I was spiritually dead in my tresspasses and sin, just like all of us were. Eph 2:1-2 in fact, we were listening and obeying the "spirit" of this world, aka satan and his cohorts. When I came to Christ, I died to my sin and became alive in Christ. No change from spirit to non spirit or non spirit to spirit, but rather a change of the spirit I was created to have....you know the image of the living God.
I find myself with an all but uncontrollable urge to call you honey child at this point. I Cor. 2:14
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of GodA)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28409A" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> but considers them foolishness,B)" data-cr="#cen-NIV-28409B" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;"> and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
Notice it says nothing at all about receiving the soul that we are already created with, but rather receiving the Spirit aka HS and the change in our nature when that Spirit is yielded to. If you want to argue this with me, you will have to find some passage that says that God gives us a new soul upon belief unto salvation not the coming HS. In fact, it appears that you still haven't figured out that there is a spirit and a soul. Seriously, you would do well and be wise to study the matter before going off about things you do not understand. In fact, I did the study only a few months ago and before doing that study, would not have had the authority to speak on the matter. Today though, I have put in the time and effort and found that the truth fits perfectly with the totality of scripture, just like we would expect from a living word, from a living God.
Okay, I'm gonna get a bit tough here since you keep confusing spirit and soul. I will until you figure out the difference respond only to questions about the soul since the soul is what we are currently talking about. As such, when I received the HS, I put on the new man, that is, my soul changed from sinful desires to Godly desires.
you said in one place that Adam and Eve were created with a soul, then in another that they only had the spirit of God breath life into them. This is a contradiction and one of the many problems with your theory. There is a difference between soul and spirit as you have repeatedly been shown, yet you refuse to address the differences.
What is equally disturbing is that I asked you to cut to the chase by telling us who you think Jesus is and you refuse to answer that simple question so that you can try using semantics and rhetoric to confuse people so that they go along with you. At least that is what these posts seem to be all about.
So...in an effort to bring this back to some simple discussion rather than jumping through hoops, answer the following questions.
1. Do you understanding the difference between soul and spirit?
2. Were Adam and Eve created in the image of God?
3. who do YOU say Jesus is?
4. Oh and one more question...do you believe the bible to be truth?
huh? more rhetoric to try to muddy the waters? The soul is the result of the breath of life. The indwelling HS is not the breath of life that is recorded in Gen. Come on, you have to know this by now, your posts show thought and study but when challenged, they cave as if there is no understanding, why?
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You are missing the point.
You said, a man is spiritual if he has a soul.
My point is, that unbelievers have a soul, and breath of life, and are not spiritual, but natural. 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Just to let you know, I did not say the things, you claim, I said.
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If you cannot understand this, then I'm not sure what else I could say to you, because you are even stating these things, but when I state them back to you, for some reason all of a sudden you don't understand.
You said: “Remember that man is three parts, the spirit is the breath of life, yet separate from the soul”
So, man has soul, and spirit, and they are separate. Are we agreed on that?
All mankind, have souls. Whether good, or evil, man has a soul, because that is the “You”.
And you said, “So, above you say Adam and Eve were created with a soul, which is spiritual”
You said, having a soul, makes one spiritual.
Now what I am saying is, everyone has a soul, yet it says, some are natural in 1 Corinthians 2:14, that means, you can have a soul, and still be natural.
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razzelflabben
Contributor
hum...maybe it is you who are missing the point being that you can't answer any of the questions I ask you nor respond to anything I say with understanding...
not exactly, but close enough to pretend you are understanding what I am saying.
but I have addressed this already and you, for all your accusations of me, still don't get it. The soul makes us spiritual, the HS makes us spiritually alive or spiritually dead. IOW's both believers and non believers are spiritual in that their soul is eternal. At least that is what scripture tells us. The difference is whether we spend eternity with Christ or separated from Him.
what ever, I'm not going to argue with someone who accuses me falsely and tries to manipulate things for the sake of making an argument that sounds wise to you.
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razzelflabben
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does this mean that you agree that a man is created with a soul, thus spiritual? I've asked you a couple of times and you refuse to just answer the question like a reasonable person would do.
yep, a soul that is eternal, thus spiritual not fleshly.
yep that is exactly what I said.
yep...that is what I said, see, it isn't so hard to respond to what I said rather than try to twist it into something it isn't.
yep, that is true, like all of us spiritual beings are also fleshly or natural beings. Like I have said many times over now, we are both flesh and spirit. How is that so hard for you to grasp that you spend all this time trying to argue with me about this rather than just understanding that we are both, just like scripture tells us we are?
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I have stated who Jesus is, but you are not able to hear me, whether by choice, or not.
Not only do I believe, the God, and Father of our lord Jesus Christ, is the only true God, but He has proved to me, all other religions, and many Christian denomination are false, when He had Jesus have John pen Revelation, who wrote against the churches. Even before this He had prophecy written against the church, and foretold what would come. Even, when Moses delayed coming down from the mountain.
Revelation 1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Revelation 22
6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these thingsin the churches.
He is the one that teaches me, but I know, you believe what was handed down to you, from our fathers, as was prophesied. I at one time to, believed in a trinity, I've studied these scriptures for more then 35 years, and for most of that time I believed God was a trinity, but He has proven to me this to be more then false. I know you don't know who you worship, but I know who you worship.
If you will not hear Jesus, “Father...this is life eternal, that they might know theethe only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”, why would you hear me.
Not only do I believe, the God, and Father of our lord Jesus Christ, is the only true God, but He has proved to me, all other religions, and many Christian denomination are false, when He had Jesus have John pen Revelation, who wrote against the churches. Even before this He had prophecy written against the church, and foretold what would come. Even, when Moses delayed coming down from the mountain.
Revelation 1
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Revelation 22
6 Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these thingsin the churches.
He is the one that teaches me, but I know, you believe what was handed down to you, from our fathers, as was prophesied. I at one time to, believed in a trinity, I've studied these scriptures for more then 35 years, and for most of that time I believed God was a trinity, but He has proven to me this to be more then false. I know you don't know who you worship, but I know who you worship.
If you will not hear Jesus, “Father...this is life eternal, that they might know theethe only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”, why would you hear me.
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stevenfrancis
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Well, to be direct about it, it would strip Jesus of His divinity, making Him a guru instead of God and would obviate the premise of Christianity, and call to question all those who gave their lives in martyrdom over a 1st century iternerent Jewish preacher.
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This is your comment: So, above you say Adam and Eve were created with a soul, which is spiritual,
You stated this. You said yourself created with a soul, is spiritual.
Man has a soul, but having a soul, does not make one spiritual.
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The spirit and soul are not the same thing. Every person has a soul; mind, will, intellect. Not all people have a spirit that is alive. We are all born spiritually dead to God, separated from Him. One must be born again that their spirit may be made alive to God in Christ.
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Of course the Spirit and soul are not the same thing, why do you think I said that? Never even suggested that. The top two comments are razzelflabben, the last one is mine. So how you got I said, Spirit and soul is the same from this “Man has a soul, but having a soul, does not make one spiritual” I have no idea; if anything, I would tend to lean more to that the person, was leaning more to they are not the same.
Adam was given the breath of life, and he became a living soul. Adam was not given a soul, he became a living soul. Everyone has the breath of life, whether they have received the promised Holy Spirit, or not, else their dead.
Spirit does not die (I am specifically referring to the breath of life here, not the promise of the Holy Spirit, which does not die either), it returns to God Who gave it; God does not receive dead things, God is living. You are spiritually dead, if your soul is not concerned with the things of God, not being filled with the Spirit, but that does not mean Spirit dies. Spirit is what gives life. The Spirit of God left Jesus while on the cross, but Jesus still had the breath of life, then Jesus gave up the ghost, which was the breath of life. The breath of life is not a person (though it is from God), it's his breath of life, His power, His Spirit, it's what gives life to a soul.
So, you have, the breath of life, and then you can receive the promised Spirit on top of that, which does make you a spiritual person. Everyone has to have the living breath of life, to have life. You can't have a dead Spirit (breath of life) and be living. There is no such a thing, as a dead Spirit of God, of any sort, there is no part of God that is dead. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, He is the living God, not the living...kinda...dead...sort of living God.
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razzelflabben
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I have been trying to figure out why you are being so argumentative and hard of hearing...I think I just figured it out...you are railing against the Christian religion. No argument from me on that, not sure why you would chose to argue with me about it, but amen. The religious are a very difficult lot to be sure. Don't even need scripture to evidence that with me, but thanks anyway. Maybe now we can get back to discussing the trinity?
wow, such judgment from someone who professes to have found enlightenment as to who God is? Scripture says that we will be known by your Love not by our judgment of others. So how about dropping the judgment and start talking to me, someone who has sought the Lord not the teachers and found something different then you did, and yet, we are called to come together and reason not judge one another.
Now, let me set you straight on something right now. I have been studying and seeking to know the true God not what the teachers have told me God is, or what I myself want to believe He is, for almost 50 years now. That doesn't make me any more right or wrong then the 35 years you talk about studying. All the study I do even now, as God has moved me into a ministry of study and teaching doesn't make me any more right or wrong on the matter than you are. What makes either of us right is a seeking after God with all our hearts while yielding to the indwelling HS who teaches us all things. What makes us wrong is taking our eyes off God for even a split second and/or not yielding to the HS witness in our lives. Thus, if we are both yielding and seeking, we can come together and reason this matter and in that, discover the "God we don't know" (what I mean by that is that there are things about God we don't already know because He is too big for man to contain, thus together, we can discover those things about God we don't already know, aka the God we don't know)
So how about it, how about setting aside your judgment and false accusations, your preconceived ideas and agendas and start reasoning together in the power of the indwelling HS?
Again with false judgments? When did God give us permission to falsely judge others and call it good or righteous? What if it is you who are not listening to God? What if we are saying the same thing but just talking past one another? What if neither of us has it right, that both of us are missing God on this matter? See, there are lots of possibles, just falsely accusing someone of not hearing is sin and has no place in the body of Christ, nor does a heart that assumes to know truth without being willing to learn from a fellow brother/sister what God has shown them.
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razzelflabben
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It absolutely does...it does Not make him spiritually alive, but it does make him a spiritual being.
Look at Ecc. the end of the book, the conclusion of the matter, what does it say about all men...? Ecc. 12:13 When all has been heard, the conclusion of the matter is: fear God and keep His commands, because this is for all humanity.
Man is a spiritual being, as well as a natural being.
Maybe this is the problem, you do not yet understand that to be spiritual does not mean one must be spiritually alive, one can also be spiritually dead (aka separated from God) both are spiritual in nature however.
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razzelflabben
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then He would just be considered a prophet like so many other religions view Him and we could not have a relationship with God, only a religion to follow
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