What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

Gregory Thompson

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The culture of 19th century was one that approved of slavery, subjugated women, and engaged in ruthless imperialism. If that's what you call "Christian" I won't argue with you.

I think the issue more is, the book of mormon tells such a different story that a christian needs to first sidestep the thought that they're being lied to and then address what is being said.
 
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mmksparbud

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Hardly a ringing endorsement of the institution! Paul's letters make up the bulk of the New Testament. But in fact he wasn't the only one. There was also this guy, Jesus:

10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Matthew 19



Actually what Abraham and Sarah did was standard operating procedure at the time. Among Semitic peoples when an elite class women married she brought a handmaiden with her as part of her dowry. If she had no children or less than what was desired, this handmaiden served as her surrogate. When the handmaiden gave birth she would do so into the lap of the wife. The baby then became the legitimate child to the husband and legal wife. Jacob did the same thing. If you read the Bible you will find that he has children both from his two legal wives as well as their handmaidens, and the children of the handmaidens count as their mistresses own offspring.
The only thing unusual in Abraham's story is that Sarah wants to dump her adopted son once she has her own.

Let's have the whole story:

(Mat 19:9) And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

(Mat 19:10) His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

(Mat 19:11) But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

(Mat 19:12) For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.


Jesus did not say it is better to not marry---His disciples did---Jesus said all men cannot receive this saying.
Jesus is not endorsing celibacy, except for those who've been called to it.

Sarah jumped the gun and did not have the faith to trust in God. It was her idea, not Abrahams, though he did not hesitate for long.
they both shoed a lack of faith for God had said
(Gen 18:10) And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

What may have been the custom for the surrounding area is not the point, we know about Jacob and the custom--point is Abraham had one wife, when he went along with Sarah it caused a heap of trouble and the middle east has been paying for it ever since. What Sarah then had to do was consented to by God

(Gen 21:12) And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

It was the first son, by Hagar, that was mocking and brought down this decision.
'
(Gen 21:9) And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
 
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smaneck

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Jesus did not say it is better to not marry---His disciples did---Jesus said all men cannot receive this saying.
Jesus is not endorsing celibacy, except for those who've been called to it.

Oh, he is definitely endorsing it. He is just saying the same thing Paul said, "better to marry than to burn."

Celibacy in the New Testament is what Catholics like to call "a counsel of perfection."

Sarah jumped the gun and did not have the faith to trust in God. It was her idea, not Abrahams, though he did not hesitate for long.

At the time Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham no promise had been made to Sarah so there was nothing for her to have faith in. She just followed the custom of the time.

they both shoed a lack of faith for God had said
(Gen 18:10) And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

Ismael was already born two chapters earlier, so no his birth had nothing to do with a lack of faith.

What Sarah then had to do was consented to by God

No, what Sarah did was out of sheer jealousy. What Abraham did was consented by God.

It was the first son, by Hagar, that was mocking and brought down this decision.

Gee, he teased his little brother. Imagine that!
'
 
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mmksparbud

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Oh, he is definitely endorsing it. He is just saying the same thing Paul said, "better to marry than to burn."

Celibacy in the New Testament is what Catholics like to call "a counsel of perfection."



At the time Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham no promise had been made to Sarah so there was nothing for her to have faith in. She just followed the custom of the time.



Ismael was already born two chapters earlier, so no his birth had nothing to do with a lack of faith.



No, what Sarah did was out of sheer jealousy. What Abraham did was consented by God.




Gee, he teased his little brother. Imagine that!
'


No--It was the disciples that said it was best not to marry---it says so right there!! Jesus said not everyone can accept that--it is plain, no fancy translations needed.

Yes--Abraham had the promise that he would be the father of many. Sarah decided it would not be through her as she was too old. it is stated that it would be through Abrahams seed. It wasn't until after Ishmael was born that that the promise was made to Sarah that it would be through her. And even then she would not believe it at first.

There was bad feeling between the 2 women as Hagar became disdainful of Sarah.
(Gen 16:4) And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.

Hagar hated Sarah, even before her own son was born, and she complained to Abraham who told her to do with her as she pleased and Hagar ran away and God told her to go back to Sarah. Apparently Hagar passed on that animosity to her son--, who took it out on in Isaac. Sarah did become worried about her son, and wanted her and the son gone. As now she did understand the promise was to her. A little late. But Hagar was being an enemy to her and her son and she was defending her home. Abraham did not want to do what Sarah wanted--

(Gen 21:11) And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
(Gen 21:12) And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
So wife and son were caste out. Jealous? Maybe--but 2 sons were vying for the birthright and only one could have it. I've always had a it of a hard time with this--I can understand Sarah's feelings, but it always seemed a bit harsh to me. But Ismael was a good 10 years older than Isaac, and that whole animosity between everyone could lead to dangerous consequences, back then, power struggles between brothers could turn deadly (and they still can today) so Sarah wanted her gone and God agreed with her and God promised that Ishmael would also become a great nation. Kind of hard to have 2 great nations in the same household, I guess.
 
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Ironhold

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The culture of 19th century was one that approved of slavery, subjugated women, and engaged in ruthless imperialism. If that's what you call "Christian" I won't argue with you.

Not everyone in the 1800s was that bad.

For example, the LDS faith was actually a fairly loud voice against slavery when Joseph Smith was alive; apologetics website black lds.org has the details.

Smith and most of the members of the church were opposed to slavery, but differed with abolitionists in that the church preferred legal means of ending it. For example, Smith's 1844 presidential platform included a plan by which all slave owners would be required to name the price they wanted per each slave they owned; the federal government would then raise the money through a variety of means and begin the process of buying each individual slave's freedom.
 
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BobRyan

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We don't even consider Daniel a prophet, so our bar is not "can you translate".

"We --- Jews"?? Don't consider Daniel a prophet?? How did that happen?

Numbers 12:6 makes it clear that Daniel was a prophet - does it not?

Numbers 12
6 “Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.

7 “Not so, with My servant Moses,
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth,
Even openly, and not in dark sayings,

Matt 24:15 Christ speaking before the time of the cross says to his Jewish disciples -
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

The Jews of Christ's day appear to have accepted the fact that Daniel was a prophet.

He never spoke to the people. That was a requirement to be a prophet. The word navi, which is prophet, is about speaking not writing. All the people we consider prophets spoke. Daniel wrote. He isn't a prophet to us. Important, yes. Wrote about the future, yes. Not a prophet.

Paul - a Pharisee in the first century A.D. says

Acts 24:14
"I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,"

And of course - the prophet Jeremiah wrote Lamentations -
Khetuvim / Writings
14) Psalms (150)
15) Proverbs
16) Job
17) Song of Solomon
18) Ruth
19) Lamentations
20) Ecclesiastes
21) Esther (shorter version)
22) Daniel (12 chapters)
23) Ezra-Nehemiah
24) Chronicles (1&2)
 
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BobRyan

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oops! -- I quoted the Book of Mormon on this thread...

In Mal 3 God said "I do not change".
In Heb 13 Christ "is the SAME yesterday today and forever".
in Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (Apostles), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

The idea then is to TEST the doctrine against the Bible to SEE IF it is valid.

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul -- were SO"

The BoM statement I quoted defining "abomination" and "wickedness" is then said to be "commanded by God for the saints to do" according to modern day Mormonism. And so now it returns back to being the "Abomination' that is no longer commanded...so then just "Abomination".

That according to Gal 1 ... Heb 13... Malachi 3... would not be the "God of the Bible" doing that.

The Mormon idea is "If an angel said it - you can do it no matter what the Bible says" -- and that is not what we find in the unchanging God of the actual Bible.

(Then of course there is the fanatic idea of using a seer stone to find treasure in the ground that was apparently popular with a few folks in the early 1800's... only to find out from the LDS church that Smith's early fanaticism on that subject where he got his own seer stone - turned out to be useful as that stone evolved the power to show 'english words' to Smith when placed over the ever-hidden-plates! At some point I think that would be a "wake up call" for bible students)
 
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BobRyan

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I just don't get it. I can show you point for point that the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is the same as in the Bible. It is very clear that salvation comes throught the work of Jesus Christ. The BoM says there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved. It also makes it clear that Jesus is God, even that it was through the power of Jesus that all things were created, meaning that Jesus was not a created being. I know the arguments against the BoM, but they all seem to be contrived and/or straw men. I love the Lord Jesus Christ, and I love the Book of Mormon. I am saved through the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Everything I believe outside of that are non-salvation issues. Unless you are saying that a wrong belief can negate salvation I don't understand how you can say that a belief in the BoM can negate salvation.

I particularly like that part in Jacob 1 and 2

And the "unchanging God" doctrine we find here
Today at 8:49 AM #930

Because that is exactly the basis for the idea of testing all doctrine against the Word of God -- "God does not change".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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smaneck

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oops! -- I quoted the Book of Mormon on this thread...

In Mal 3 God said "I do not change".
In Heb 13 Christ "is the SAME yesterday today and forever".
in Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (Apostles), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Pretty big shift from the Tanakh to the NT if you ask me!
 
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RestoredGospelEvidences

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I recall reading the book of Mormon, beginning in Nephi, I noticed that the book was telling the story from the time of Jeremiah from the perspective of a false prophet, the first inconsistency at that time was "all the prophets were preaching repentance" but according to Jeremiah the opposite was true. The inconsistencies were blatant to me so I read something else.

If "inconsistencies" are what you're going on, you better not read Atheistic & early anti-Christian writings, because they also discourage the reading of scriptures, the bible, etc., & love to point out the many contradictions & inconsistencies found there in too. How would you answer them? Ignore them? Place the Bible under a double standard? If you didn't get past the first alleged "inconsistency" in the Book of Mormon, then you missed out on the rest of the book. Looking for things to make issues over, or find fault with, isn't going to help when it comes to making a spiritual, prayful study too. Don't we ask Atheists the same types of things? Try to get them to study it out & live the good moral codes found in the bible, and try to make it a prayful study too, in addition to accepting the evidences found for the Bible by scholars, etc?

As for Jeremiah, his writings were written on a scroll or "roll" but were burned, then re-written & "there were added besides unto them many like words." (Jer. 36:28, 32). Was Jeremiah the only prophet who predicted the Babylonian captivity to come? No! Where there true prophets who also gave the same prophetic warnings? Yes. The true prophets tried to warn the people, while the false prophets tried to counter their warnings.

Micah (740-700 B.C.) also warned of the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions and predicted the fall of both Samaria and Jerusalem. Was he one of the false prophets that Jeremiah mentioned? If not, then there were other prophets, true ones, that also warned prophetically too. Lehi being one of the true prophets. Besides, even the OT says that there were "prophets," more than one, that gave said warnings, (2 Kings 17:13-15; 2 Chr. 36:15-16). Even Jeremiah mentions how the Lord sent "prophets" (Jer. 7:25), Urijah, prophetically warned too, (Jer. 26:20). I bet you didn't pay attention to the Book of Mormon's foot notes for 1 Nephi 1:4, note d, mentions these Old Testament scriptures to consider about "many prophets."

Then, there's the Jewish historian, Josephus, like in the BOM, he talks of "the elders," (1 Nephi 4:22), some of these elders, perhaps some good, others not so much. At any rate, he pointed out how that some of the "Elders" pointed out how Jeremiah shouldn't be punished for predicting what Micah had warned, before Jeremiah had, for: "...Micah signified the same before him, as well as many others, none of whom suffered anything of the kings that then reigned, but were honoured as the prophets of God. . . ." (Josephus Complete Works, p. 217, Antiquities of the Jews, Book X, Chapter VI:2).

What's the source for your Jeremiah claim anyways? It's always nice when people leave a source to track down, rather than just quick stabs at others' faiths, like a hit & run tactic.

Inconsistancies & Contradictions -- an old tactic: The early anti-Christian Celsus, (2nd cent. AD), like modern anti-Mormon “Christians,” also attempted to show contradictions between leaders. Celsus, for example, “attempted to show that Jesus contradicted Moses”. (Joseph Wilson Trigg, Origen (The Bible and Philosophy in the Third-century Church), (Atlanta: 1946, 1952, 1971, 1973, & John Knox Press, 1983), p. 230).

Like the early anti-Christians, many modern atheists have rejected the Bible because of similar reasons that the [AM] "Christians" reject things in Mormonism. So the [AM] "Christians" would not be able to pass their own test, & tactics, & test for truth, when others challenge them with the same tactics, etc., that they attack others with. The Atheist, M.M. O'Hair, July 27 1970, said for example, that one of the reasons why Atheists reject God was because that the gospels contradict each other. (The American Atheist Sept. 1977, p.23-5, July 27, 1970, Fanciful Facts About Jesus, by M.M. O'Hair, from the A.A. Radio Series, No.107). How would Christians answer the Atheists? Wouldn't that answer, answer the same issues Christians have with the BOM?

CAN THE BIBLE PASS THE SAME TESTS?

1. Was man or beast created first? Gen. 1:25-28 vrs. Gen. 2:18-20.
2. Were the moving creatures & fowl created out of the earth or out of the water? Gen.1:20 vrs. 2:19-21.
3. Were Adam & Eve created separately or together? Gen.l:26-8 vrs. 2:18, 20-3
4. Was Arphaxad the father or grandfather of Sala? Gen.11:12 vrs. Luke 3:35-36.
5. From who did Abraham buy the land for the sepulchre? Gen.23:17-19 vrs. Acts 7:16.
6-8. How old was Terah & Abraham? In Gen.11:26-32 was 70 when he begat Abraham and it adds that he, Terah died in Haran at the age of 205-135 years later. In Gen.12:4 Abraham was 70 when left Haram. Yet Acts 7:4 tells us his father was dead when he left Haran.
9. And where was the land located? Same Scripture.
10. The Location of the land & the settlers correspond between Gen.33:18-19 & Acts 7:16 but in Gen. 33 the buyer is Jacob. Not Abraham.
11. At what age is life fixed? Gen.6:3 vrs. Ps. 90:10.
12. How did Bethel get its name? Gen. 28:10-22 vrs. Gen. 35:10-15.
13. Was Abraham familiar with the name Jehovah? Ex.6:3 vrs. Gen 22:14.
14. Who was Laban's father? Gen. 28:5 vrs. Gen. 29:5
15. Who sold Joseph to Potiphar? Gen. 37:36 vrs. 39:1.
16-17. How many went down into Egypt? Gen.46:26 vrs. Deut.10:22 & Acts 7:14
18. How many years were the Israelites in Egypt? Gen.15:13, Acts 7:6 vrs. Ex.12:40, Gal.3:17.
19. Can man see the face of God? Ex.33:11 vrs. 33:20-23.
20. Were the staves of the Ark to remain in place? Ex.25:15 vrs. Num. 4:5-6.
21. Could Israel see of not? Gen. 48:10 vrs. 48:8, 11.
22. Which is the correct translation, staff (matteh) or bed (mittah)? Gen. 47:31 vrs. Heb. 11:21.
23. Did all the water turn to blood? Ex 7:19 vrs. 7:22, 24.
24. Who taught Moses to delegate? Ex. Ex. 18:13-23 vrs. Deut. 1:9-18.
25. Did all the Egyptian cattle die? Ex.9:6 vrs. 9:20.
26. Were all horses killed? Ex. 9:3 vrs. Ex. 14:9.
27. Was Moses mighty in words? Ex. 4:10 vrs. Acts 7:22.

28. Was Moses meek? Num.12:3 vrs 31.
29. When & where did Aaron die? Num.20:23-28 & Num.33:38.
30. And: Deut. 10:6.
31. Where did Eleazer replace Aaron? Num.20:23-29; 33:37-8; Deut.10:6-7.
32. Had Midran been destroyed or not? Num.31:7-17 vrs. Jud. 6:1.
33. Was Eleazer, son of Aaron allowed to enter the promised land? Num.14:30 vrs. Josh. 14:1.
34. How many Benjamites were killed? Judges 20:35 vrs. Jud. 20:46.
35. How many died in the plague? Num. 25:9 vrs. 1 Cor.10:8.
36. Had the Amalekites been destroyed or not? 1 Sam. 15:6-8 vrs. 30:1:2.
37. Did God give the land of Canaan to Israel as an Inheritance? Ex.12:37 vrs. Acts 7:5.
38. Did God want the people to offer sacrifices? Lev.27:28; Judg.11:34; l Sam. 25:33 vrs. Isa.66:3.
39. Does God punish children for the sins of their parents? Ex.20:5 vrs. Ez.18:20.
40. Did God want Balaam to go? Num.22:20 vrs. Num.22:21.
41. Who was Samuel's firstborn? 1 Sam.8:2 vrs. 1 Chron.6:28.
42. Who were Saul's sons? 1 Sam.14:49 vrs. 1 Sam. 14:49 vrs. 1 Sam.31:2
43. And: 1 Chron. 8:33.
44. Did Saul inquire of the Lord? 1 Sam.28:6 vrs. 1 Chorn. 10:13-14.
45. Was David a youth or an adult when he first met Saul? 1 Sam.16:18 vrs. 1 Sam. 17:33.
46. How Many Sons did Jessee have? 1 Chron. 2:13-15 vrs. 1 Sam. 16:10-11.
47. What was David's first public appearance? 1 Sam.16:18 vrs. 1 Sam.17
48. Was Goliath's death, David's first military exploit? 1 Sam.16:18 vrs. 1 Sam. 17:33.
49. Did Michael have children? 2 Sam.6:23 vrs. 2 Sam.21:8.
50. Was it Merab or Michal whom Saul gave to Adriel? 1 Sam.18:19 vrs. 2 Sam.21:8.
 
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RestoredGospelEvidences

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I think the issue more is, the book of mormon tells such a different story that a christian needs to first sidestep the thought that they're being lied to and then address what is being said.

"Being lied to"? Cases, examples?

"Tells a different story?" Of course the BOM does, it's about a separate area of the world which Christ went to, an area which had true prophets that testified of Christ too. It backs up the Bible's witness that Jesus Christ is the Messiah!

However, your comments about "being lied to" offers no examples, which examples would be nice, so they can be discussed, rather than just make little stabs & claims, then running off to hide.

Does the Bible tell a different story too? First, which bible? Which one? Even different versions of the Bible tell a different story too:

(From: DT, Rough Draft).

"90, Jewish Council of Jamnia debates the authority of certain books and fixed a canon of Judaic writings.[6273]
384, Pope Damasus commissions Jerome to translate a version of the Bible, later called the Vulgate version.[6274]

11th century, Pope Gregory VII (A.D. 1073—85), policies were issued against translating the Bible, which was suppressed and held back by the clergy from the common people.[6275]
1170's Waldo, a rich man of the city of Lyons, sought to understand what the Latin that the Priests were reading. Had some of the priests translate the Bible for him.[6276]
1179, Lateran Council, Waldo’s supporters attempt to get Church approval for Waldo’s activities.[6277]
1379, Wycliffe published his treatise On the Truth of Holy Scripture.[6278]
1388, Wycliffe followers attempt to distribute biblical manuscripts, are hunted and suppressed. A second version of the translation is completed.[6279]
1414, a law was established which made those who ready any scriptures in English to “forfeit land, catel, lif[e], and goods from their heyers [heirs] for ever.”[6280]
1430's Johann Gutenberg’s invention, the printing press, was used to print the Bible.[6281]
Early 1500's, Eramus, a professor at Cambridge, sought to help the people know the scriptures through his translations.[6282]
William Tyndale, A.D. 1490's—Oct. 6, 1536, sought to make it so that even the boy who guides the plough would know the scriptures, and was eventually strangled, and his body was burned for making this possible.[6283]
1538, Cromwell, issued an injunction that let the bibles in the making, to be allowed to be freely read by the people in the churches.[6284]
1560, the Geneva Bible was ready for publication.[6285]
1611, the King James version of the Bible was published.[6286]
1546, Council of Trent, Catholicism reaffirms that the Apocrypha should remain in their canon.[6287]
1881, the reconstructed Greek New Testament, used by English editors of the Revised New Testament, had “almost 6,000 changes from the earlier alleged “original Greek,” and one-fourth of these corrections change the sense of the passage.”[6288]
1945, Nag Hammadi Library discovered.
1947, Dead Sea Scrolls discovered.
1948, Dr. Millar Burrows readings in the “St. Mark’s” Isaiah manuscript from the first Qumran cave were turned over to the Old Testament section of the Revised Standard Bible Committee that met at Northfield, Massachusetts, in the summer of 1948.[6289]
1952, September, the Revised Standard Version = RVS of the Bible included “fifteen Dead Sea Scrolls’ insertions in Isaiah.[6290]
1955, three years after the RSV was published, news of these insertions were made known to the public, especially after the appearance of Edmund Wilson’s revealing piece in The New Yorker.[6291]".

Earlier bibles included other books of scriptures too, the Shepherd of Hermas, Book of Enoch, & some don't start with the creation, but with the pre-existence, council in heaven, war in heaven, fall of the angels, etc. Genesis A & B, for example. There are earlier bible illustrations that show this too, plus other early to later Christian art works. (Scroll down to art works).

Cité de Dieu La - Augustinus council in heaven; fallen angels, creation of Eve hand clasp.

Bible of Robert de Bello- England S- E- Canterbury 1240 1253 Historiated initial with scenes of Genesis.

Rev.12:1-5; Gothic manuscript, 1250-85 AD, Angel passes Christ child into Hands of God.
See: Nigel Morgan, Early Gothic Manuscripts (II) 1250-85, (Lon.: Harvey Miller, 1988), fig. 37.
Coppo di Marcovaldo, St. Michael & his legend; AD 1250-60, San Casciano val di pesa museum of sacred art.

Fall of the Rebell Angels - Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art in Kansas City, Missouri.

Chute des anges déchus, BNF Richelieu Manuscrits occidentaux, Français 21, Fol. 17 Saint Augustin, Cité de Dieu (traduction Raoul de Presles), France, Paris, XVe. War in Heaven, God's angels combat rebell angels & thrust them down into the underworld!

The Fall of the Rebel Angels from Les Très Riches Heures du duc de Berry (miniature), c. 1410. Council in heaven, war & fall of the rebellious angels out of their council seats. Their thrusting out of heaven & fall to become the demons of the underworld.

To name a few.
 
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smaneck

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RestoredGospelEvidences

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For example:

1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days.

First noticed it is written in the first person.

According to biblical tradition, this sets up Nephi as an unreliable narrator, because he is exalting himself.

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

That his father lived in Jerusalem all his days (verse 4) and spoke egyptian, is interesting, Is there any archaelogical or historical sociological data to explain this?

3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge.

This sounds like Nephi is leaning on his own understanding.

4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed.

Jeremiah Chapter 1
1 The words of Jeremiah son of Hilkiah, one of the priests at Anathoth in the territory of Benjamin. 2 The word of the Lord came to him in the thirteenth year of the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah, 3 and through the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, down to the fifth month of the eleventh year of Zedekiah son of Josiah king of Judah, when the people of Jerusalem went into exile.

Jeremiah Chapter 5
30 “A horrible and shocking thing
has happened in the land:
31 The prophets prophesy lies,
the priests rule by their own authority,
and my people love it this way.
But what will you do in the end?

I could continue, but it appears the historical account of the book of Mormon teaches counter to the bible on key points, morally and also in relation to getting the story straight. I would say the bible and the book of Mormon don't work together, they're telling different stories.

Your first opening comments claims that it's against "biblical tradition" for a prophet to write his testimony about what happened to him during his own day in time. This way of writing, is actually an ancient way of opening up a sacred true story, with a first hand testimonial that the writer wrote it in his own hand & according to his own experiences & language. (See commentaries). Nephi wasn't exalting himself, as you charged, if so, why did he later unexalt himself by admiting he had weaknesses & asks God to forgive him too? (1 Nephi 19:6; 2 Nephi 4:17-35, note verse 17!).

Concerning 1 Nephi 1:2: You ask: "That his father lived in Jerusalem all his days (verse 4) and spoke egyptian, is interesting, Is there any archaelogical or historical sociological data to explain this?" Yes!

A.S. Yahuda's, The Language of the Pentateuch in Its Relationship to Egyptian.

Ancestral Voices, (Decoding Ancient Languages), by James Norman, 1975, Pub. by Four Winds Press, N.Y., N.Y., p.13-14.

Dr. Huge Nibley suggests that the language that Lehi must have learned was a form of Egyptian writing called "demotic." Lehi then passed this on to Nephi & perhaps his other kin. Lehi lived with in the time frame in which this type of form was known. He cites from Spiegelberg who has defined "demotic" as having been the cursive form of writing developed some time between about the 8th -- 4th centuries B.C., an abbreviation of the hieratic. Nibley went on to explain some of the stages in which the language developed over time, from the picture form called hieroglyphic style, which later was developed into a shorthand form of Egyptian writing called "hieratic," which later developed into a shorthand of that shorthand, the "demotic" style of egyptian writings, as first named by Champollion about 1828. (Temple & Cosmos, by Dr. Huge Nibley, 1992, p.217-8, & n.7, p.260. William Spiegelberg, Demotische Grammatik (Heidelberg: Winter, 1952), 1).

There is also evidence that some of the Israelite about 600-598 B.C., had used a form of writing that had Egyptian influences in it. For example, "...in the royal administration of both Judah & Israel (Samaria), hieratic numerals were used, striking new evidence for the influence of Egyptian prototypes in the Israelite administration...." (The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol.31, Feb. 1968, No.1, p.12-15, fig.9 & 10, see also n.5 on p.15, Basor No.184, (Dec., 1966), p.13-19, Pub. by The American Schools of Oriental Research, Jer. & Bagdad).

Ariel Crowley, Anthon Transcript articles.

As to your Jeremiah issue, claiming he was the only prophet warning about the babylonian take over. See my post here. No point in going over this again here.

You also claimed: "I could continue, but it appears the historical account of the book of Mormon teaches counter to the bible on key points, morally and also in relation to getting the story straight. I would say the bible and the book of Mormon don't work together, they're telling different stories." Response: The BOM does not counter the bible, it backs it up, it is a separate line of prophets, the first coming from the Jerusalem area, the others in ancient Americas, who all testify that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. That the Messiah-Christ, as prophesied in the Old Testament, did go to other nations around the world, including the ancient Americas.

The BOM teaches & explains, by cases & examples about what happens to groups of people who don't live "morally" so this shows you haven't read all of the BOM through. If you have, then you failed to mention the many stories & examples that run throughout the BOM about charity, etc., etc., etc.
 
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RestoredGospelEvidences

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Your link doesn't work but I'm pretty sure the above in incorrect. What the Pope prohibited was the mass being said in the vernacular.

Here's the end note, others can be found here in this mega study:

End note 6275, the source: Lenet H. Read, How the Bible Came to Be, (Salt Lake City, Utah: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1982, published in a series of articles in The Ensign, June 1982, p. 41.

For what it is worth.
 
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