Can you lose your salvation?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
<snip>If one is sealed by the Spirit of Christ upon believing - it is impossible that Christ would not know the one He was united with.

Sealing by the Spirit is only a foretaste of salvation. On belief, baptism, our spirits are seated with Christ in high places, we are justified, recognised as a family member.

But our body remains to be sanctified, we must grow into the role of family member, else we are like the candidates who flunk boot camp, like the child sent to college and wasted his time, and flunks, and cannot function in the regular organisation, in the family inheritance.

If the ones we are reading about were once saved it would be impossible that Christ had never known them.

Functioning in the regular organisation, being in Christ, is only possible when we have been sanctified. How can an impure entity be united with Christ, know Him as Joseph knew Mary? Only when we eat His flesh, have His words, His teachings in us, are we sanctified, can we have a share in Him.

He didn't say that He no longer knew them. He said that He never knew them.

Absolutely, they never reached sanctification. Which is by belief, just as justification was. The judaisers were trying to reach sanctification by human effort, circumcision, when they had just received the Holy Spirit by belief. Paul was angry. They wanted to complete their Christian journey by works when they had started out with faith. See, they confessed the ways of the world was not their way and they were justified, received the Spirit, who took their spirits and kept it in safekeeping in high places and who did many miracles in their midst, when they saw many answered prayer.


Now they had to confess their own ways were wrong too, and as they walked in the light of Christ, confessed their wrong thinking and action, the blood of God's Son cleansed their bodies of wrong ways too!

Sanctification!

Now unity, being in Christ, being known by Him, was possible.

Don't miss out!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Point out the weakness in the view.
That salvation can be lost.

Hebrews 6:For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
So, this is the verse that "actually" says one can lose their salvation?? First, the word 'salvation' isn't there. Hm. Neither is the phrase eternal life. Hm again.

OK, the problem is that someone here doesn't understand what "repentance" means.
metanoia
1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

So, it means "change of mind". And not referring to God here. It refers to the one who has tasted of the heavenly gift, who has fallen away. This isn't even close to be about llosing salvation.

Hebrews 4:9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
Sabbath rest has nothing to do with getting saved. It's not an equivalence. The sabbath rest refer to eternal rewards. That is obvious when one reads through Hebrews. In Ch 11, what were the heroes of faith looking ahead to? They were already saved, so it wasn't salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,453
✟84,588.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I've always believed that it is likely that the greater percentage of those who claim Christianity are really not saved. I see that in the various "kingdom" parables and the like.

But I have held out hope that God's grace is a little more all encompassing than what is shown in doctrinal discussions concerning what it takes to make it to Heaven.

The more I engage here in the forum the more I realize that it is quite likely that the majority of those who claim salvation have actually misunderstood the gospel and are lost.

So many seem so close and yet, I believe, are so far from salvation through faith in Christ.

It saddens me.
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That salvation can be lost.


See, this is called Hebrew parallelism. The verses are repetitions of each other, to emphasize a teaching.


15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;


16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.


Interpretation, do not live according to the flesh or you will die, lose your birthright, the sanctification of the body, grace, which the Old Covenant believers never had, because their reward was only the protection of the law. The new covenant provided grace, that is why it is called the Covenant of Grace, brought into force by the atonement that Jesus made.



So, this is the verse that "actually" says one can lose their salvation?? First, the word 'salvation' isn't there. Hm. Neither is the phrase eternal life. Hm again.


Eternal life is chayei olam, a mode of living, that reaps eternal treasure. It is attained by knowing God and Jesus Christ His Son whom He sent, by being united with them, just as Joseph was united with Mary in marital union, when he "knew" her. Without sanctification, no one can see God. Sanctification is attained by walking in the light as Jesus is in the light, so that the blood of Jesus can cleanse us of our unrighteousness. Parallel verse, If we confess our sins, He is righteous and just to forgive us of all our sins.



OK, the problem is that someone here doesn't understand what "repentance" means. metanoia1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has doneSo, it means "change of mind". And not referring to God here. It refers to the one who has tasted of the heavenly gift, who has fallen away. This isn't even close to be about llosing salvation.



Israel repented of her belief that she could survive only by staying in Egypt (having the same values and methods as the world) or by believing in her own values and ways. She agreed that God's values, eternal treasure and God's ways were the real eternal permanent values and ways. She agreed to follow God into union with Him, rest, after tasting of the Spirit and heavenly powers, but she could not give up her fleshly appetites. She never entered God's rest, when her sins reached a level of no return and GOD SWORE SHE WOULD NEVER ENTER HIS REST. Even Joshua did not give Israel spiritual rest, because it needed atonement, the atonement of the future Messiah prophesied by Moses.


Sabbath rest has nothing to do with getting saved. It's not an equivalence. The sabbath rest refer to eternal rewards. That is obvious when one reads through Hebrews. In Ch 11, what were the heroes of faith looking ahead to? They were already saved, so it wasn't salvation.


Our spirits are saved when we believe, receive the Holy Spirit, are transported to Christ in high places. This is justification, entrance into God's family which the heroes of faith received.


They were looking forward to sanctification, when their bodies too would be renewed like their spirits, which they never received, because Christ had not yet been sent.


We, even the least in the kingdom of God, now have sanctification within our reach, because of the atonement. That is why we are greater than the greatest ever born of a woman, John the Baptiser. Because we can share in Christ's work, because we are IN, Him, because we are sanctified.


Don't miss out!
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I've always believed that it is likely that the greater percentage of those who claim Christianity are really not saved. I see that in the various "kingdom" parables and the like. But I have held out hope that God's grace is a little more all encompassing than what is shown in doctrinal discussions concerning what it takes to make it to Heaven.The more I engage here in the forum the more I realize that it is quite likely that the majority of those who claim salvation have actually misunderstood the gospel and are lost.So many seem so close and yet, I believe, are so far from salvation through faith in Christ.It saddens me.


Don't be vague, make specific claims, speculations, so that we can demolish them:


2 Corinthians 10:3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, 4for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
 
Upvote 0

patience7

Regular Member
Oct 11, 2010
1,149
135
Louisiana
✟9,906.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Showing that salvation, grace, delivery from the body of death, can not reached if one is weak: your own words support my view.


Rather than point out the weakness of your points, I'm going to tell you the plan of salvation as described by Scripture.


Then I will show where the points you support lead to, the plan of salvation you understand.


This is what happens:



The Christian life is described as a journey, a process.


How can a person be saved?


By believing on Christ, you and your family.



What does believing on Christ do? It takes you out of the influence of all that which is not of God and puts you under the influence of all that which is of God. When Israel left Egypt and was taken out of the influence of the world and was exposed to God. She drank from the Rock and the Rock was Christ. Yet with most of them God was not pleased and they wandered in the desert till they died, without entering rest.



If she was not under the influence of the world, but under the influence of God, would that not put a stamp on her as belonging to God?


We should not forget that it is not only our peers who influence us but also our own appetites. The drive to possess resources, relationships, power, sometimes even desiring the property, life partners the prestige belonging to others, covetousness. God wanted the Israelites to abandon all these appetites, even the desire for self preservation, and direct all their loyalty to Him, and He had given them enough reason to do so. However, only Joshua and Caleb acquired this spirit. Of all the adults that left Egypt, only these two entered the Promised Land. The children were later tested and they had the advantage of not growing up in Egypt and passed God's test of loyalty, a lesser test.


Becoming a Christian and going to church is the equivalent to drinking from the Rock. Children have a great advantage in growing up influenced by exposure to God's teachings and facing a lesser test, provided they are taught right.


Baptism is the recognition of the switch of loyalty from world and self to God. Apart from coming into contact with God's teaching, this repentance, change of outlook, mindset , also is accompanied, rewarded by the giving of the Holy Spirit. Are children given the Spirit? Clearly the Spirit is given only on belief, and children have no personal belief, following only in the footstep of the family. However the exposure to instruction and influence from God gives them a distinct advantage in deciding to be loyal to God: isolation from worldly influence, exposure to God's instruction, easier testing.


However it's important that teaching is coherent and comprehensive. Instruction that involves much incomplete conclusions, dogmatism, fideism, mystery and paradox will have an unfavorable influence on children and when they finally are able to have critical reasoning abilities, are able to think for themselves, they WILL notice those illogical and incomplete teachings that ignore the clear instructions in the Bible.


The text clearly lays out what is expected and what results, on right action.


Reflect, weigh the issues, choose to follow God. This is belief. Choosing and exhibiting loyalty to God. Leading to the sanctification of our spirits, which then places them with Christ in high places.

Now the same must be done with the body. Luther saw the Christian life as a series of confessions, so his theology was truly faith based. However, just as the baptismal confession resulted in salvation of our spirits, the agreement, con fess ion, aligning with God's opinion, that our bodies were in need of rejuvenation, leads to the sanctification of the body. This is where actions, good works, the transformation of the nature of our bodies, is required. That is why Luther valued the sacraments.


When observed, God responded.


Be baptised. God gives his Spirit. We are justified.


Confess. God gives His Spirit, we are sanctified.


This is how we start with faith and continue with faith, not by works.


Luther truly was against works of the law, something Wright, Dunn and Sanders fail to understand.


Putting to death the deeds of the body was confessing that we possessed a sinful body, and in confessing, agreeing with God about this fact, Christ is faithful and cleanses us of all unrighteousness. Walking in the light is the walking in the spotlight of God's holiness, which reveals those unrighteous habits.


If we refuse to confess, but cling on.to those desires of the flesh, justifying their place in.our lives, we will die. Our bodies will not be sanctified and enjoy the comprehensive resurrection, the better resurrection that Paul writes about. In fact, persistent returning to the flesh life leads to banishment from fellowship with God and His people, handing over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that even though the body may be destroyed, the spirit may be saved, but as through fire.


Does putting to death the deeds of the body through confession lead to full sanctification? Not really . Paul states that he pleaded with God to remove the remaining thorn on his flesh, but God wanted to remind him that it was grace that saved and that that grace was sufficient for full sanctification, acceptance.


So to summarise, agreement with God, loyalty, is what is needed, not a required amount of work, the total removal of all fleshly desires. Its the attitude, not the state.


THAT is why the verse says "make sure no one misses out on reaching grace“:


15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God;


The Christian life is a journey. The writer knows it will take time to understand the teachings. He wants people to be nice to each other so that they can concentrate on drinking from the Rock. This way, they will be able to reach a condition where they have God's favour, grace. This is not perfection. Paul wanted perfection, but God said Paul was in His good books and that was sufficient!


This then is where the possibility of not reaching salvation is taught, with parallels found in many other places. In Galatians 3 the believers started out with faith and are now trying to reach grace by circumcision! This proves that your point is wrong, your insistence that faith brings about justification and sanctification in one step. It is clearly stated that it is a two stage process. In fact, Paul tells the people of they try to be circumcised they will fall out of grace, Christ, who ensured grace was now available, would be of no benefit for them. They would be like the old covenant believers who never had grace, whose only benefit was the guardianship of the law, the justification of the spirit, who did not receive rest, delivery from the body of death, the sanctification of the body.


Be careful of the minimalist teachings of the lazy scripture teachers. They take the revelation God gives them and do not expand on it, study it, go to Bible college maybe, but bury it in the ground and give it back to the master in its basic, original form, when they could at least have put it in the bank, asked for help from the Holy Spirit.


If a person follows your method, just believe Jesus is God, then he will be stuck at a halfway stage. He will not reach a stage where God's grace is on him, where God will say, "Before I never knew you fully acknowledged me, but now I know you do". This happened to Abraham after many years of walking with God, when he was transformed from a person who lied to save his life, to one who was ready to give up his most precious possession, his son Isaac.
I can only remind you of John 3:16 and Romans 10:9,10 - this is the way to salvation and salvation is a gift of God through faith by grace . . . Period. This is being born of the Spirit. Being born of the Spirit - you are a partaker of the divine nature - you are now placed in the body of Christ, the household of God. NOW, you begin your walk - we are to walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh - BUT we are still in the flesh and still under the influence of the old man and now the new man - these two are contrary one to the other so that we (sometimes) cannot do the things that we want to do. We are in a battle, we are in a race, we are in a fight . . . When we stand at the judgment seat of Christ - our works done in the flesh will be burned; those things that we have built upon our foundation, Jesus Christ - those works that remain we will receive a reward . . . those that are burned will result in loss of rewards BUT we will be saved. 1 Cor. 3
 
Upvote 0

Matthew Twentyfour

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Jan 19, 2015
560
96
✟8,141.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So, this is the verse that "actually" says one can lose their salvation?? First, the word 'salvation' isn't there. Hm. Neither is the phrase eternal life. Hm again.

OK, the problem is that someone here doesn't understand what "repentance" means.
metanoia
1) a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done

So, it means "change of mind". And not referring to God here. It refers to the one who has tasted of the heavenly gift, who has fallen away. This isn't even close to be about llosing salvation.

Just because you don't see the word salvation in it, to you this scripture does not imply a lost of salvation?

You argument has absolutely no merit whatsoever. Why don't you try reading this in another translation and see if it'll click. See where it said "destroy by fire?" These people are Christians who turned away from following Christ and went back to a life of sin and are destined for hell.

Hebrews 6:4-8 4 Some people cannot be brought back again to a changed life. They were once in God’s light, and enjoyed heaven’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. 5 They found out how good God’s word is, and they received the powers of his new world. 6 But they fell away from Christ. It is impossible to bring them back to a changed life again, because they are nailing the Son of God to a cross again and are shaming him in front of others.

7 Some people are like land that gets plenty of rain. The land produces a good crop for those who work it, and it receives God’s blessings. 8
Other people are like land that grows thorns and weeds and is worthless. It is about to be cursed by God and will be destroyed by fire.

Parallel scripture. Apparently it takes a lot more than just accepting Christ's gift of salvation and think once saved, always saved. Unless you decide to follow your own will and not continue following Christ's own, you lose your salvation.

John 15:1-6 1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Do you understand 2 Peter 2:20-22? Do you need the word salvation in there to make sense? It means if you go back following sin, your condemnation will be worst than an atheist who never knew Christ.

2 Peter 2:20-22 20 They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. 21 Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them. 22 What they did is like this true saying: “A dog goes back to what it has thrown up,” and, “After a pig is washed, it goes back and rolls in the mud.”




:)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I can only remind you of John 3:16 and Romans 10:9,10 - this is the way to salvation and salvation is a gift of God through faith by grace . . . Period. This is being born of the Spirit. Being born of the Spirit - you are a partaker of the divine nature - you are now placed in the body of Christ, the household of God. NOW, you begin your walk - we are to walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh - BUT we are still in the flesh and still under the influence of the old man and now the new man - these two are contrary one to the other so that we (sometimes) cannot do the things that we want to do. We are in a battle, we are in a race, we are in a fight . . . When we stand at the judgment seat of Christ - our works done in the flesh will be burned; those things that we have built upon our foundation, Jesus Christ - those works that remain we will receive a reward . . . those that are burned will result in loss of rewards BUT we will be saved. 1 Cor. 3


You said "Being born of the Spirit - you are a partaker of the divine nature - you are now placed in the body of Christ, the household of God. NOW, you begin your walk - we are to walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lust of the flesh - BUT we are still in the flesh and still under the influence of the old man and now the new man - these two are contrary one to the other so that we (sometimes) cannot do the things that we want to do. We are in a battle, we are in a race, we are in a fight."


This flatly contradicts Scripture which says when you are IN Christ, at rest, you are no longer fighting sin:


1 John 3:9Whoever abides in him, does not sin: whoever sins, has not seen him or known him.


How can a person who is in sin be partaker of the divine? Parallel verses say that the person who sins will not see God.


4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.



Besides, what happens to people who do not fight? If you say that people who do not fight have their works burned up, then that is another contradiction. Because you also said these people fought in their flesh, used human effort.


These are the variables:



1 People who sin, live in the flesh, will die.


2 People who attempt to overcome sin by human effort will have their works burned up.


3 People who attempt to overcome sin by just depending on Christ will NOT have their works burned up.


But it seems that option 1 and option 3 are the same. Both ignore their sin.


Your view is incoherent.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew Twentyfour

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Jan 19, 2015
560
96
✟8,141.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well, right off the bat we see displayed the level of ignorance on what the word "eternal" means. As well as what a present tense is, and what it goes with. It is VERBS that have a tense, NOT objects. One only needs to go to John 5:24 to see the past, present and future tense, all related to eternal life.

And, the word "eternal" actually means that. It has no end.


Why in the world would someone IGNORE the future tense here? Beats me, but here it is: and does not come into judgment

That's not what you said in your other post #41. You thought eternal life was immortality, all future tense, till I refuted your thinking with scriptures.

Eternal Life is not about the future. It's all about the present, the here and now, today, this moment. It begins the moment you have a true relationship with God through Christ. It has nothing to do with immortality.

Eternal life is essentially a relationship with our Creator.
http://www.cru.org/train-and-grow/devotional-life/discover-god/devo-eternal-life.html

Many people have also misunderstood the meaning of “eternal life” as it is used in the Scriptures because they have listened to “once saved, always saved” teachers. The OSAS proponents often argue that “eternal life” can not be lost, or better yet forfeited, or else “eternal life” would not be “eternal.” This is a philosophical argument that is not based upon the Scriptural understanding of how a person partakes of eternal life.

Eternal life is the life that issues from the eternal God. Since God has and always will be eternal (Psalm 90:2), he “alone possesses immortality” (1 Tim 6:16), and “life in himself” (John 5:26) and has “granted the Son to possess life in himself” (John 5:26). Eternal life is eternal whether a person does or does not trust in the eternal God. Since God is the source of eternal life it follows that one’s possession of it is only through a faith relationship with the eternal God and his eternal Son, Jesus Christ.
http://www.fwponline.cc/v20n2/v20n2witzki.html


If one wants to argue that only the present tense is used in reference to eternal life, or getting saved, let's examine Acts 16:31, where Paul answered the jailer's question of "what must I do to be saved?" with this: "believe (aorist tense) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE saved." I will assume that you do understanding the meaning of the aorist tense.

Do you see the words WILL BE you wrote in your comment? That's future tense. It means you're not yet saved. Amazing, you even wrote it in upper-case and still don't understand what you wrote.

Do you understand the process of salvation? You're saved when you abide in Christ by following Him. This is a process involving what you do in the future. When you accept the gift of salvation, He comes and lead you to the Father through obedience in Him.

Again, "No one comes to the Father but through Me."

I believe your first question here is totally confused and in error. Having eternal life is ALL ABOUT going to heaven. In fact, the very basis of people being cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20:15 is because they didn't have the gift. Secondly, you've just shot your own argument in the head because it is not based on proper understanding of Scripture.

No it's not. eternal Life is not about going to heaven nor will it save you from the lake of fire because it can be lost just like any other relationship.

I can prove it. Go ask your pastors what is Eternal Life. Ask more than one. Ask them does Eternal Life have more than one meaning in the bible.

I dare you. Go ask them.


Wow!! Talk about an erroneous understanding of Jesus' words. We are saved by grace through faith, not being "led into a relationship with the Father".

In fact, the relationship is formed BY the Father towards all who believe. John 1:12 refutes your statement completely.

Jn 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

From your post so far, it seems clear that your level of understanding of Scripture is woefully inadequate. Our relationship to the Father is a right that He grants to those who believe in Christ.

Amen, talk about erroneous understanding of Jesus' words....but it's on your part.

Look at the end of John 1:12 my padawan. See the semicolon there at the end? It means you cut off verse 13 and didn't take the entire message into consideration.

John 1:12-13 King James Version 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


This changes everything doesn't it? The message is now totally different.

No one is "led into salvation" or "into relationship with the Father". That is totally unscriptural.

Obviously you missed the part where Jesus said "follow Me!" Check the bible, it's in there. While you're at it, dwell on this "No one comes to the Father but through Me."


Let's look at the meaning of the Greek word for "not obey".

apeitheō

1) not to allow one’s self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with

Combined with the first part of the verse, it means here to NOT believe. It sure isn't about not following some rules.

You used the wrong word. Use the greek words in John 3:36. Don't translate the word "not obey" and think that's what's written in John 3:36.

http://biblewebapp.com/reader/

And don't try to be sneaky either.

And you still haven't figured out Luke 10:25-28 either. If you believe one can receive eternal life by accepting Christ's gift of salvation, why does Christ tell us that eternal life is attain by loving God and others?

Apparently this is not the same eternal life you've been poking at others on this forum. See where He called it the law too?

Luke 10:25-28
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?
27 So he answered and said,
“ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”



 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Matthew Twentyfour

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Jan 19, 2015
560
96
✟8,141.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No one said that there was only one point to Matthew 7:21-23.

No. that is not "all" I can figure out about the parable.

But I can figure out something that apparently you are unable to grasp.

If one is sealed by the Spirit of Christ upon believing - it is impossible that Christ would not know the one He was united with.

If the ones we are reading about were once saved it would be impossible that Christ had never known them.

He didn't say that He no longer knew them. He said that He never knew them.

Rather basic stuff don't you think?

It did dawn on me why He said that He "never" knew them. He said it because He "never" knew them.

You're totally in the dark with Matthew 7:21-23. He said He never knew them because there was never a relationship.

Do you not understand what Christianity is all about? It's NOT a religion, it's a relationship.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Matthew Twentyfour

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Jan 19, 2015
560
96
✟8,141.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't see anyone "mocking" Mother Theresa here.

Any student of scripture would be concerned for her salvation after listening to her teaching and reading her writings.

Was she lost?

We all hope that she was not. But it appears that she was.

She was the victim of a bankrupt system of religion. That system apparently failed her all the way to her death and beyond.

She apparently misunderstood the most basic tenets of the gospel - as do many here in the forum.

I wouldn't worry about Mother Theresa, but I be more concerned about you. Do you actually think you can get away with the things you say about others when you stand before God during judgement? Some Christians will stand before Christ, some will before God.

Matthew 12:36 ESV
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

Matthew 12:37 ESV For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


What are you gonna tell Him when He tells you to give an account for the comments you wrote above against Mother Theresa?

Lord Lord, I thought once we were saved, we are always saved?

Marvin, I never said that in the bible. Show me one scripture where that's written.


Lord Lord, here it is, John 3:15-16.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him
should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Marvin, do you see the words "should not" in there? It implies a condition.

But Lord Lord, what about John 10:28-29?

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Marvin, did you bother to read the preceding verse? It said you have to listen to Him and follow Him first before you receive eternal life.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

But Lord Lord, what about Ephesians 2:8-9?

What about it Marvin? Read verse 10. It said you are to live righteously through Christ. This is your good works required to maintain your salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
But Lord Lord, I've been a Christian for 57 years. Doesn't that amount to anything?

Marvin, the length at which one is a Christian is not justification for salvation. There is no merit in one's age for the greatest in the kingdom of heaven are those that are liken to a child. Now let's have a look at the Lamb's Book of Life and see if your name is still there.

Marvin, I hate to tell you this, but your name has been blotted out from the Book of Life. It was there when you accept Christ as your savior, but you refused to follow Him and continued follow the sins of the world. Therefore, your name was removed.

But Lord Lord, How can this be, I thought once saved always saved?

No Marvin, I already said that's not written anywhere in the bible. But I did warn everyone if they did not overcome the sins of this world, their names will be removed from the Book of Life.


Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

But Lord Lord, wait. Once saved always saved....Once saved always saved....Once saved always saved.

Depart from Me. I never knew you, you who practise lawlessness!




Hebrews 10:26-29 ESV
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?



:)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Eternal life is chayei olam, a mode of living, that reaps eternal treasure.
These are Hebrew words. Let's stick with the NT, ok? Where it doesn't mean "mode of living". It means life everlasting. Those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life receive it and will live with God eternally, unlike those who never received the gift and will be cast into the lake of fire per Rev 20:15.

It is attained by knowing God and Jesus Christ His Son whom He sent, by being united with them, just as Joseph was united with Mary in marital union, when he "knew" her.
This is just sooooo confused. Eternal life is obtained, not attained. And it is obtained as a gift through faith in Christ.

Don't miss out!
What is being suggested here; that I'm not saved? How odd, given that your view of how to obtain eternal life is so unbiblical!
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Just because you don't see the word salvation in it, to you this scripture does not imply a lost of salvation?
This is exactly your problem; thinking that the verse IMPLIES loss of salvation. Yet your previous claim was that there are verses that "actually" SAY that salvation can be lost. Now, you've waffled and quoted a verse that only IMPLIES loss of salvation.

The problem is one of gross assumption. It is your assumption about the verse. As I have said, there are NO VERSES that actually SAY that salvation can be lost. And you've not provided any that do. Your assumptions are wrong.

Paul defined what he meant by gifts of God in Romans 1:11, 3:24, 5:15,16,17 AND 6:23. And then he stated that God's gifts are irrevocable. Since God IS eternal life, and is the ONLY One with the authority to gift it, Rom 11:29 proves that eternal life cannot be removed in any way.

Some have claimed that a believer can "give away" his eternal life. Really???!!! How silly. Where does the Bible teach that? No where.

But because some people come to Scripture with pre-conceived ideas, they refuse to accept the clear verses on eternal security. It doesn't make sense to them, so they just delete it, and focus on ASSUMPTIONS about other verses that don't ACTUALLY say that salvation can be lost.

You argument has absolutely no merit whatsoever.
LOL Just the opposite, in FACT.

Why don't you try reading this in another translation and see if it'll click. See where it said "destroy by fire?" These people are Christians who turned away from following Christ and went back to a life of sin and are destined for hell.
Go ahead and try to prove that.
Hebrews 6:4-8 4 Some people cannot be brought back again to a changed life. They were once in God’s light, and enjoyed heaven’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. 5 They found out how good God’s word is, and they received the powers of his new world. 6 But they fell away from Christ. It is impossible to bring them back to a changed life again, because they are nailing the Son of God to a cross again and are shaming him in front of others.

7 Some people are like land that gets plenty of rain. The land produces a good crop for those who work it, and it receives God’s blessings. 8
Other people are like land that grows thorns and weeds and is worthless. It is about to be cursed by God and will be destroyed by fire.

Parallel scripture. Apparently it takes a lot more than just accepting Christ's gift of salvation and think once saved, always saved. Unless you decide to follow your own will and not continue following Christ's own, you lose your salvation.

John 15:1-6 1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Do you understand 2 Peter 2:20-22? Do you need the word salvation in there to make sense? It means if you go back following sin, your condemnation will be worst than an atheist who never knew Christ.

2 Peter 2:20-22 20 They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. 21 Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them. 22 What they did is like this true saying: “A dog goes back to what it has thrown up,” and, “After a pig is washed, it goes back and rolls in the mud.”:)
Not any of these verses teach that salvation can be lost. It's just some very gross assumptions about these verses.

It would take way too much time to teach all that is involved in these verses. But since Rom 11:29 doesn't move you, I don't think anything else will, either.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
That's not what you said in your other post #41. You thought eternal life was immortality, all future tense, till I refuted your thinking with scriptures.

you've refuted nothing. So far, you've embarrassed yourself by your assumption of what I have posted. I never indicated that I thought eternal life was immortality. Eternal life is God's life. He IS eternal life, per 1 Jn 5:20.

And I refuted your notion that there is a "tense" to eternal life. Since eternal life is NOT A VERB, there is NO tense to it. Jesus said that those who believe HAVE eternal life, per Jn 5:24.

Eternal Life is not about the future. It's all about the present, the here and now, today, this moment. It begins the moment you have a true relationship with God through Christ. It has nothing to do with immortality.
This is way off track, imho. Sure, it begins at the moment of faith in Christ. But only those who HAVE eternal life will not be cast into the lake of fire forever. Why ignore eternity so much?
Please read 1 Jn 5:20.


Do you see the words
WILL BE you wrote in your comment? That's future tense. It means you're not yet saved.

Such a lack of understanding of Greek verbs is astounding. 'Believing' is in the aorist, meaning in a point in time. 'will be saved' is future to believing. That's Paul's point. Not that one is not saved WHEN they believe. And your view is flatly refuted by Jesus Himself in Jn 5:24 where He said that those who believe HAVE eternal life.

Amazing, you even wrote it in upper-case and still don't understand what you wrote.
Actaully, it's what you don't understand about my posts.

Do you understand the process of salvation? You're saved when you abide in Christ by following Him.
Clearly, the confusion is on your part. Totally. Salvation is NOT a process. One HAS eternal life when one believes in Christ. The concept of "abiding in Christ" is about fellowship, not relationship.

This is a process involving what you do in the future. When you accept the gift of salvation, He comes and lead you to the Father through obedience in Him.
You've contradicted yourself here by the claim, "when you accept the gift of salvation". That's WHEN one is saved.


I can prove it. Go ask your pastors what is Eternal Life. Ask more than one. Ask them does Eternal Life have more than one meaning in the bible.

I dare you. Go ask them.
Is this really your "proof"??? btw, my pastors all agree with my views. Certainly not yours. :)

You used the wrong word. Use the greek words in John 3:36. Don't translate the word "not obey" and think that's what's written in John 3:36.

http://biblewebapp.com/reader/

And don't try to be sneaky either.
Knock off the snark. I stated exactly what is in my lexicon.

And you still haven't figured out Luke 10:25-28 either. If you believe one can receive eternal life by accepting Christ's gift of salvation, why does Christ tell us that eternal life is attain by loving God and others?
He never said that. Again, complete confusion on your part.
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
These are Hebrew words. Let's stick with the NT, ok? Where it doesn't mean "mode of living". It means life everlasting. Those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life receive it and will live with God eternally, unlike those who never received the gift and will be cast into the lake of fire per Rev 20:15.This is just sooooo confused. Eternal life is obtained, not attained. And it is obtained as a gift through faith in Christ.What is being suggested here; that I'm not saved? How odd, given that your view of how to obtain eternal life is so unbiblical!
These are Hebrew words. Let's stick with the NT, ok? Where it doesn't mean "mode of living". It means life everlasting. Those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life receive it and will live with God eternally, unlike those who never received the gift and will be cast into the lake of fire per Rev 20:15.This is just sooooo confused. Eternal life is obtained, not attained. And it is obtained as a gift through faith in Christ. What is being suggested here; that I'm not saved? How odd, given that your view of how to obtain eternal life is so unbiblical!


Your entire view fails on the assumption that those who work are working for heavenly rewards, over and above simple salvation.


The text clearly says that sanctification is towards being IN Him, abiding.


1 John 3:6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.


Going by your view, believers obviously are not going to abide in Him, whilst in this earthly body. The rewards of works, efforts at doing good deeds, by your reckoning, is heavenly in nature.


Contradicting what Scripture CLEARLY states: believers who put to death the deeds of the body will live, have the Son, abide in Him, have eternal life, a mode of living which results in eternal treasure, treasure which will not perish. Whoever does not put to death the deeds of the body, aka free gracers, will NOT have eternal treasures, the reason Christ came and died on the cross for. He came that we may have life and life in abundance. Not the skeletal life you preach.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,453
✟84,588.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
You're totally in the dark with Matthew 7:21-23. He said He never knew them because there was never a relationship.

Do you not understand what Christianity is all about? It's NOT a religion, it's a relationship.
I totally agree that Christianity is about relationship.

I totally agree that those in Matthew 7 never had a relationship.

The title of the thread and the question before us is "Can you lose your salvation?"

To have salvation is to have relationship.

We all agree that relationship has always been missing for those in Matthew 7.

Therefore it is sloppy and haphazard theology to use the people in Matthew 7 as examples of loss of salvation.

Another possibility is that it was used purposefully to prove a pet doctrine knowing full well that it was not appropriate.

Either way it is wrong.
 
Upvote 0

FreeGrace2

Senior Veteran
Nov 15, 2012
20,401
1,703
USA
✟184,557.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Your entire view fails on the assumption that those who work are working for heavenly rewards, over and above simple salvation.
Why would this be am assumption, since the doctrine of rewards is mentioned throughout Scripture?

The KJV mentions "reward" 79 times, and 5 times in the plural. And there is no Scripture to support working for salvation, which seems to be your view. In fact, Paul refuted that notion in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.

The text clearly says that sanctification is towards being IN Him, abiding.
This response was in relation to my comment, here:
"These are Hebrew words. Let's stick with the NT, ok? Where it doesn't mean "mode of living". It means life everlasting. Those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life receive it and will live with God eternally, unlike those who never received the gift and will be cast into the lake of fire per Rev 20:15.This is just sooooo confused. Eternal life is obtained, not attained. And it is obtained as a gift through faith in Christ. What is being suggested here; that I'm not saved? How odd, given that your view of how to obtain eternal life is so unbiblical!"

So, what verse are you actually referring to? The only verse I mentioned in that paragraph was Rev 20:15.

1 John 3:6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
Have you ceased sinning?

Going by your view, believers obviously are not going to abide in Him, whilst in this earthly body.
That is absolutely NOT my view. Of course they can…IF the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18), walks by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16) and does NOT grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quench the Holy Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

Are any of these terms familiar to you?
The rewards of works, efforts at doing good deeds, by your reckoning, is heavenly in nature.

Contradicting what Scripture CLEARLY states: believers who put to death the deeds of the body will live, have the Son, abide in Him, have eternal life, a mode of living which results in eternal treasure, treasure which will not perish. Whoever does not put to death the deeds of the body, aka free gracers, will NOT have eternal treasures, the reason Christ came and died on the cross for. He came that we may have life and life in abundance. Not the skeletal life you preach.
I believe you've totally missed the meaning of Scripture. Your view is that salvation is by works, when the Scripture says clearly that salvation is NOT OF WORKS (Eph 2:9). Your view contradicts Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Wordkeeper

Newbie
Oct 1, 2013
4,285
477
✟83,580.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why would this be am assumption, since the doctrine of rewards is mentioned throughout Scripture?

The KJV mentions "reward" 79 times, and 5 times in the plural. And there is no Scripture to support working for salvation, which seems to be your view. In fact, Paul refuted that notion in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.


This response was in relation to my comment, here:
"These are Hebrew words. Let's stick with the NT, ok? Where it doesn't mean "mode of living". It means life everlasting. Those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life receive it and will live with God eternally, unlike those who never received the gift and will be cast into the lake of fire per Rev 20:15.This is just sooooo confused. Eternal life is obtained, not attained. And it is obtained as a gift through faith in Christ. What is being suggested here; that I'm not saved? How odd, given that your view of how to obtain eternal life is so unbiblical!"

So, what verse are you actually referring to? The only verse I mentioned in that paragraph was Rev 20:15.


Have you ceased sinning?


That is absolutely NOT my view. Of course they can…IF the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18), walks by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16) and does NOT grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quench the Holy Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

Are any of these terms familiar to you?
The rewards of works, efforts at doing good deeds, by your reckoning, is heavenly in nature.


I believe you've totally missed the meaning of Scripture. Your view is that salvation is by works, when the Scripture says clearly that salvation is NOT OF WORKS (Eph 2:9). Your view contradicts Scripture.

Actually, it's pretty easy to prove your view wrong.


First I will lay out what should happen to a believer when he sets out to follow Christ, towards salvation, fulfilment, becoming what those made in God's image were meant to be.


Next I will provide the Scripture that supports this process.


Third I will provide the Scripture that shows what are the evidences are, of having eternal life.


First


The believer must first confess that the world, it's desires and it's ways are futile, with no expectation of lasting results, eternal treasures. Golly, this is so obvious, yet men still strive to gain something which they cannot keep. Maybe it's how they find it bearable to pass the time from birth to death. In the absence of a better way of understanding the meaning of life, they settle for a stop gap solution. It's like the cancer patient who is stuffed to the eyeballs with morphine. He is treating the symptom, rather than the cause. It makes the disease tolerable. He has no cure.


Escaping from the world and it's outlook isn't enough. The believer must escape from himself and his OWN outlook, even from care for life, just like Joshua and Caleb. Whilst the rest of Israel ran around trying to preserve their pointless lives, J & C decided that they and their families would follow the Lord, repent from serving the goals and ways of the world and self, and turn to serving the goals and ways of God.


This is repentance and baptism, confession of error in serving idols and change of mind by oath taking to serve God.


In the stage of calling out, separation from the world, in the ecclesia, the believers are exposed to God's goals and God's ways, drinking from the Rock, eating of the flesh of the Passover lamb as they passed from the old life to the new life. God's goal is that the believers should be in union with Him, restore the union Adam had with God, so that they can be a blessing to the world, by cleansing the damage caused by sin and by completing creation. God did His part and rested, Adam disturbed his part of the plan, his descendants set it back further. Now believers must make up the loss caused by Adam's descendants as well as complete Adam's part of the plan. This is living the eternal plan of God, this is eternal life.


In order to access this eternal life, someone must create a legacy to be passed on, an inheritance to come into. God gave Israel the mandate to create that legacy, but she failed. Where the first son failed, the second son, the Israel of God, succeeded. He obtained rest for believers, he obtained the possibility of union with God. He cleansed the promised land, humanity, made it the new humanity, by nailing the old humanity to the cross. God rewarded Him by raising Him from the dead, into the new humanity, He being the first beneficiary, inheritor.


Now, now, believers could have a proper rest to enter into, a spiritual promised land, of which Joshua's achievement was only a type.


In order to be IN the new man, believers had to be sanctified. Baptism only resulted in justification. Baptism was the confession, "Lord have mercy on me, a wrong doer, wrong because I followed worldly treasure using worldly means."


Confession leads to sanctification. As we admit that the habits in our lives are wrong, as compared to the habits that God desires us to have, the blood of His Son Jesus cleanses us from those habits. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is His promise, to Abraham, that through His Seed, the world will be blessed. This is how Abraham's Seed will save God's people, the world, from their sins.


Only those who are sanctified will be IN Christ, will see God.


Only those who are IN Christ will be blessings to the world.


Out of their inner beings will flow streams of living water. As Ezekiel prophesied, just as water would flow out and turn the deserts into green lands, God's word would give life to dead bones.


This then is eternal life, to be united with God, and Jesus Christ, the One He sent to earth.
 
Upvote 0

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,453
✟84,588.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
I wouldn't worry about Mother Theresa, but I be more concerned about you. Do you actually think you can get away with the things you say about others when you stand before God during judgement? Some Christians will stand before Christ, some will before God.

Matthew 12:36 ESV
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

Matthew 12:37 ESV For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


What are you gonna tell Him when He tells you to give an account for the comments you wrote above against Mother Theresa?
Here is the exactly what I wrote about Mother Theresa.

"I don't see anyone "mocking" Mother Theresa here.

Any student of scripture would be concerned for her salvation after listening to her teaching and reading her writings.

Was she lost?

We all hope that she was not. But it appears that she was.

She was the victim of a bankrupt system of religion. That system apparently failed her all the way to her death and beyond.

She apparently misunderstood the most basic tenets of the gospel - as do many here in the forum."

I said nothing derogatory about Mother Theresa.

What I did do was recognize and point out to others that, by her own words, her religious system of works had failed to bring her assurance of salvation.

I recognize and point out that any system involving good works to either attain or maintain salvation is a false gospel.

I express sorrow for Mother Theresa's condition as well as for the many here in the forum who depend on their works to attain or maintain salvation.

I not only do not expect rebuke by the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ for doing so. I believe that there will likely be a small reward for me for warning His body about the dangers of such false gospels.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Marvin Knox

Senior Veteran
May 9, 2014
4,291
1,453
✟84,588.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Don't be vague, make specific claims, speculations, so that we can demolish them:....................
To cut right through any vagueness - I am concerned for the salvation of several people posting here on this thread. They seem to have passed from simply believing that one can possibly lose their salvation over into what amounts to a doctrine of working toward salvation (which is really not a gospel at all).

Kapeesh?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.