I have learned much...

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I think of the ones you mentioned, the only thing I don't have trouble with is intercession of the saints.

Could I ask, what faith tradition were you a part of previous to becoming Orthodox?

I don't know if answering that is going to be any help. I started out Baptist, and left that denomination after a while and went through several Pentecostal type denominations, and for the past 5 years or so have identified with what might be generally termed "conservative Pentecostal" churches. But they were seemingly all becoming less conservative and more manipulative. I was never 100% fitting in with any denomination I had been a part of, though I accepted Baptist doctrine as taught to me at first. And along the way I visited nearly everything, it seemed.

But in spite of being very comfortable in Methodist churches at various times, I think you'd have to say that I was a generic evangelical of the radical reformation.
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
69
✟60,615.00
Faith
Christian
It was a process. And I was looking at other churches at the same time.

Some things were easy - like "call no man Father" ... simple enough to understand what the original language is saying, and the fact that Paul calls himself Timothy's father, and so on.

Baptismal regeneration was one of the more difficult. The problem was, nearly every other church I was interested in believed it too. So I really had to deal with that one early on.

First, I had to accept the fact that I could be wrong about something. I set out to find out what was the TRUTH - and in that process I had to accept the painful fact of such things as having been taught easy-believism ... yet here was Paul talking about running the race, being afraid of being disqualified, buffeting his body so that he might be saved. So basically I decided to dump everything I had been taught, start from square one, and try to find the truth, no matter how distasteful to me it might be. ;)

When I read the Scriptures with NO preconceptions, I had to admit that it could be there. I couldn't prove one way or another. Reading the ECFs helped cement what the early Church believed though. And when I read the Scriptures through their lens rather than my own, I saw a completely different story, and finally (almost regretfully) had to accept it.

From there, I began working through everything one at a time. Some it was a sudden insight because of words someone said to me, or I came to understand better because of prayer. Some was easier to prove in Scripture. What helped me a lot was to slowly develop a "whole mindset" kind of approach. This was NOT easy for me. There is such a huge difference in the way Orthodox will approach a question. But as I came - very slowly - to understand how it all fit together, it started making tremendous sense. It is as though I had been looking at a tapestry from the back, and it wasn't until I took a completely new look from a new direction (the front) that I realized that all those threads DID fit together to make a story of mankind and God, the Fall and Salvation, and everything. The key to these things for me was having a better understanding of the theories of Atonement, and shifting my focus from simple penal substitution to seeing the whole thing from creation to the eschaton as a continuous purpose of a LOVING God. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not. But I couldn't have gotten there by only seeing little pieces. In our Church, Father often says that we must view all of Scripture through the Gospel, and that is a good description of this process for me. The God of the OT can be very confusing - unless you know Christ and can see it all through that context.

That didn't solve all of my problems. To be honest, even when I was baptized, I still had some lingering issues I had not perfectly solved to my satisfaction, about the Theotokos. But what I did there was to look at my whole situation. I had found the Church to be correct in the end, with everything I investigated. Historically they have a huge advantage over me - they have held all this knowledge and dealt with it for 20 centuries. I came along a handful of decades ago, and I have to believe what I read about history, faith, and everything else, and make the best logical decision I can. But I don't have what they have. I also had to basically chose to submit in those areas. I don't do things I'm not comfortable with or don't understand, but I decided to put my reservations in a place that I just labeled "I will submit to the Church". I can't very well start my own Church - I'd get plenty of things wrong. I want to be part of a Church, and right now I feel that's the right thing according to Christ's command, and the Orthodox Church was by far my best choice. The others I considered had major theology or mindset errors, imo.

And to be honest, I think God has honored my choice. Certain of those issues I now understand (the simplest of them were just semantics) and others I have begun to understand for other reasons. There are one or two minor things I still put aside, and submit for the purpose of obedience to God to belong to a Church and receive the Eucharist. Those points are not things that bear on salvation anyway. And jurisdictional issues, or those that vary due to economia - are not things to keep myself out of the Church over. I have reasons for that too.

I have been given so much help through the Church for my Christian walk, and I am thankful that this is what I have decided. As time goes by, I see more and more indication that it was the right thing to do. No Church is perfect when you consider the people that make it up, but what I get from the Orthodox Church is perfect.

Sorry, I have no idea if you wanted to know all of that. It seemed the best answer. I can address particular issues if you like, but the process seemed the important thing.

God be with you. (And I'm sorry this is so long!)

Don't ever apologize for the length of what you write. I greatly appreciate that you took the time and effort to tell me all that you did. I can see some of myself in what you wrote. Early on, I knew I could be wrong, and had been. I have been struggling with this for 40 years, not just recently. I have come to a different conclusion than you did, though. I'm just not sure where that leaves me or what it means for me in terms of Christian fellowship in a church home. I think the "denominational family'" I most identify with makes it harder for me to be a part of it than if I wanted to join Orthodoxy.
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
69
✟60,615.00
Faith
Christian
I don't know if answering that is going to be any help. I started out Baptist, and left that denomination after a while and went through several Pentecostal type denominations, and for the past 5 years or so have identified with what might be generally termed "conservative Pentecostal" churches. But they were seemingly all becoming less conservative and more manipulative. I was never 100% fitting in with any denomination I had been a part of, though I accepted Baptist doctrine as taught to me at first. And along the way I visited nearly everything, it seemed.

But in spite of being very comfortable in Methodist churches at various times, I think you'd have to say that I was a generic evangelical of the radical reformation.


Thanks very much. Yes, that does help! I can very much relate to what you said.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,550
20,062
41
Earth
✟1,464,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
and a nugget I found from Acts 2 for you CR, concerning our position on infant Baptism: "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Don't ever apologize for the length of what you write. I greatly appreciate that you took the time and effort to tell me all that you did. I can see some of myself in what you wrote. Early on, I knew I could be wrong, and had been. I have been struggling with this for 40 years, not just recently. I have come to a different conclusion than you did, though. I'm just not sure where that leaves me or what it means for me in terms of Christian fellowship in a church home. I think the "denominational family'" I most identify with makes it harder for me to be a part of it than if I wanted to join Orthodoxy.

I understand some of that. You've been struggling longer than I have - really I have been searching for only a little over 15 years, and only truly struggling with it much more recently. I had struggled with parts before, but never got frustrated enough with the whole to entirely start over, and that was what it took for me.

Sorry that you still have difficulties - but God has each of us come at things in a different way. And I think there's wisdom in what Matt said, that there is no rush. :)

I'm glad you don't mind my long-winded-ness. :) You're very gracious in that. :)
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
69
✟60,615.00
Faith
Christian
and a nugget I found from Acts 2 for you CR, concerning our position on infant Baptism: "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Thanks, AM. I will always appreciate it when someone tries to help me.

I have had people in a few denominations also point out this scripture to support infant baptism, but the part of the verse that is not in bold is as important as the part that is in bold. Notice the promise is also "to all who are afar off", so the condition for receiving the promise must be the same for all these -- repentance and faith. That's what I believe the scripture teaches.

But again, I appreciate your effort to help.
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
69
✟60,615.00
Faith
Christian
I understand some of that. You've been struggling longer than I have - really I have been searching for only a little over 15 years, and only truly struggling with it much more recently. I had struggled with parts before, but never got frustrated enough with the whole to entirely start over, and that was what it took for me.

Sorry that you still have difficulties - but God has each of us come at things in a different way. And I think there's wisdom in what Matt said, that there is no rush. :)

I'm glad you don't mind my long-winded-ness. :) You're very gracious in that. :)

Thank you, Kylissa. Keep in mind that your "long-windedness" might have been just what I needed to hear. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ~Anastasia~
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,550
20,062
41
Earth
✟1,464,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Thanks, AM. I will always appreciate it when someone tries to help me.

I have had people in a few denominations also point out this scripture to support infant baptism, but the part of the verse that is not in bold is as important as the part that is in bold. Notice the promise is also "to all who are afar off", so the condition for receiving the promise must be the same for all these -- repentance and faith. That's what I believe the scripture teaches.

But again, I appreciate your effort to help.

the problem is that it doesn't actually say that in this verse. if children are included in those that St Peter is talking to, there is nothing that says that children are NOT included in those that are far off. and, it is assumed that faith is some mental exercise, or that one only has faith when rational enough to express it. it does not say that anywhere in Scripture, and St John the Baptists reaction to being in Christ's presence shows that the physical brain does not need to be developed to a certain point to have faith.
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
69
✟60,615.00
Faith
Christian
the problem is that it doesn't actually say that in this verse. if children are included in those that St Peter is talking to, there is nothing that says that children are NOT included in those that are far off. and, it is assumed that faith is some mental exercise, or that one only has faith when rational enough to express it. it does not say that anywhere in Scripture, and St John the Baptists reaction to being in Christ's presence shows that the physical brain does not need to be developed to a certain point to have faith.

Except that repentance is stated here, and repentance and faith are always connected to baptism in the NT. I don't equate faith with a mental exercise or rationality; faith involves the will. An infant is not capable or needful of repentance, or of exercising the will or the power of choice.

As for the example of John the Baptist, we have talked about that previously. His is a unique case and situation -- one unlike any in the history of the human race. I would say that it cannot be used as a justification for infant baptism. I would agree, as you said, that the physical brain does not need to be developed to a certain point to have faith, and I believe there are degrees of faith, but I do also believe that a child has to be old enough to exercise the will in order to believe and accept Jesus as Lord by faith.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Thank you, Kylissa. Keep in mind that your "long-windedness" might have been just what I needed to hear. :)
God be with you. :)

LOL, I hope you don't mind. You're on my permanent prayer list. Someone else asked, and somehow when I wrote them down, it was your name I wrote instead. ;) I added them the next time, but I didn't cross your name off. So I hope you don't mind. :)
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
69
✟60,615.00
Faith
Christian
God be with you. :)

LOL, I hope you don't mind. You're on my permanent prayer list. Someone else asked, and somehow when I wrote them down, it was your name I wrote instead. ;) I added them the next time, but I didn't cross your name off. So I hope you don't mind. :)


I don't mind. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: ~Anastasia~
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,550
20,062
41
Earth
✟1,464,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Except that repentance is stated here, and repentance and faith are always connected to baptism in the NT.

yes, when addressing adults. speaking of children, St Peter says the promise is theirs as well, and he does not say when they become adults.

As for the example of John the Baptist, we have talked about that previously. His is a unique case and situation -- one unlike any in the history of the human race.

incorrect, there are many saints who showed their faith in their mother's womb like he did. and his reaction may have been unique, but just because someone does not externally exercise their faith, that does not mean they don't have it. many adults are believers and I imagine you would not know. so just because babies cannot physically or audibly express what they believe, that does not mean that they don't believe and therefore should not be baptized.

I do also believe that a child has to be old enough to exercise the will in order to believe and accept Jesus as Lord by faith.

the issue this that this is not found in Scripture, and unless John the Baptist was somehow more human the rest of us, his example shows that even in the womb one can accept Christ. plus, as stated before, we have other saints who have shown their faith in the womb. St Brendan the Navigator I believe is one as well
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
69
✟60,615.00
Faith
Christian
yes, when addressing adults. speaking of children, St Peter says the promise is theirs as well, and he does not say when they become adults.



incorrect, there are many saints who showed their faith in their mother's womb like he did. and his reaction may have been unique, but just because someone does not externally exercise their faith, that does not mean they don't have it. many adults are believers and I imagine you would not know. so just because babies cannot physically or audibly express what they believe, that does not mean that they don't believe and therefore should not be baptized.



the issue this that this is not found in Scripture, and unless John the Baptist was somehow more human the rest of us, his example shows that even in the womb one can accept Christ. plus, as stated before, we have other saints who have shown their faith in the womb. St Brendan the Navigator I believe is one as well

How are infants capable of belief? I don't think they are. Adults and older children could be believers without anyone knowing it. Personally, can remember believing in a Higher Being when I was five years old. But adults and older children are capable of believing; I think infants are not.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,550
20,062
41
Earth
✟1,464,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
How are infants capable of belief? I don't think they are. Adults and older children could be believers without anyone knowing it.

well, the history of the saints shows this to be untrue. if the Psalmist can say praise Him sun and moon, and there are many records of people experiencing creation audibly praising God, then why would infants be excluded? how are infants NOT capable of belief, if we already established that belief is not some mental construct? you know you believed in God at 5, but how do you know you didn't before then?

But adults and older children are capable of believing; I think infants are not. googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1431698694306-1'); });

this is again not something that is actually in the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

CelticRebel

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 21, 2015
623
64
69
✟60,615.00
Faith
Christian
well, the history of the saints shows this to be untrue. if the Psalmist can say praise Him sun and moon, and there are many records of people experiencing creation audibly praising God, then why would infants be excluded? how are infants NOT capable of belief, if we already established that belief is not some mental construct? you know you believed in God at 5, but how do you know you didn't before then?



this is again not something that is actually in the Bible.

I actually have memories form as early as two years old, but I had no concept of God at that time.

In the Bible, repentance and faith were the conditions for baptism. I don't see that infants are capable of that. I also don't see that infants need that.

I think these are issues that I couldn't get past, as far as being able to accept the Orthodox teaching about. I struggled with infant baptism for many years. It's one thing that kept me out of ministry in the United Methodist Church and the Episcopal Church.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,550
20,062
41
Earth
✟1,464,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
In the Bible, repentance and faith were the conditions for baptism. I don't see that infants are capable of that. I also don't see that infants need that.

those conditions were only ever addressed to adults. there is no evidence that infants don't have faith in God. St Paul says that all of creation is groaning for redemption, which would include infants. and it does not matter what any of us sees. if the standard is Scripture, there is nothing that says that infants should not be baptized anywhere in the Bible. infants were united to the Old Covenant, but somehow the God who is love leaves them out of the New?

I actually have memories form as early as two years old, but I had no concept of God at that time.

since memories are a mental construct and we already said that faith is not something of the mind, it does not matter if you have memories of God from that time or not.
 
Upvote 0