No One Man Pastor ministry over all

LoveofTruth

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Two thousand years of Christians reading the same Scriptures say different than you. So when it comes to understanding Scripture who should I believe, what every Christian in history has said, or you?



It's clear that you really aren't that familiar with Luther or the Reformation. Luther wasn't accusing the whole Church of being wrong. You may want to look at some history here.



And what the Lord has shown me is the beauty and the goodness of the historic liturgy. So I guess that about wraps this up.

-CryptoLutheran


Luther was addressing the catholic Churches errors, and they seemed to dominate the world
I have read much about Luther

the only way we can see if what anyone says is truth is to examine it by scripture and the anointing in all believers. If God commands the believers to edify one another and use their gifts and if any believer can have something revealed to him and share it in the gatherings. This is Gods command Paul says if a man thinks himself spiritual he will acknowledge what Paul wrote were the commandments of the lord. It doesn't matter if men say they like their litergy and one man pastor over all or their form. If they go against Gods commands beware. Paul says in Colossians 2:8 to Beware of mans traditions and rudiments and when men spoil you of your goods, (or hinder you from being a good steward of the manifold grace of God and gifts given for edifying)

and I say exactly what Paul taught in scripture I need only his words really. It is not right to say what I teach. I speak according to the word . Yes any man can say that and if the use the word we can examine it. So Paul commended some for examining what he said by the scriptures. We should all do this. But some dont even want to begin to do this because if what i am saying is true they have been bound up for a long time in the traditions of men and their whole structure will collaps and that is too much for some.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Of course people defend their interpretation. That's what you have been doing too.

No I speak of the order of God the set order that Paul wanted to be set in every church. There was a way that believers ought to behave themselves in the church as Paul taught. God shows certain things to certain people depending on the work they do, If a man is a evangelist gifting, then God equips him for such a work. if a man is a Prophet gift, then God reveals to him what he must say for such a gift. If a man is an apostolic worker then God equips him for the work and to plant churches. Some who are not in certain gifts may not see the things reveled at first. But if they examine scripture they will not be able to deny it. Sometimes it takes a bit longer to work through the text , start slow and meditate on one or two verses at a time. Here is a good start. What does Peter mean here?

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Notice that every man can minister and have a gift. To minister to others is being a good steward. Notice that ay man can speak, not just the pastor.

any comments on this verse?
 
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Open Heart

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No I speak of the order of God the set order that Paul wanted to be set in every church.
You have only your own interpretation of scripture, which flies in the face of how the entire church has interpreted it for centuries. But you know better, eh.
 
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LoveofTruth

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You have only your own interpretation of scripture, which flies in the face of how the entire church has interpreted it for centuries. But you know better, eh.

The way i plant churches is as close as God has shown me to Pauls way

If i see something in scripture like, "as every man hath received the gift even so minister the same one to another..." and ""..when ye come together every one of you hath a Psalm a doctrine..." etc and i see that God is commanding this to be allowed to happen in the church gatherings, and someone comes along and says to me, well thats not the way we have done it for centuries. I say well, you have been hindering Christ from paqrticipating in you and your gathering for centuries. Jesus says he stands outside of Laodicea about to spew them out of his mouth. And he says they think all is well, or that they have need of nothing. But he wants to come into them and sup with them. This inner supper is the true communion of the saints. This is his participation with them. But he is outside.

Paul said to withdraw from every BROTHER that walketh disorderly and not after the traditions he handed down. We see these things I speak of the order and set order he handed down. To go against it even if the person is a brother or sister, is disorderly and we are to withdraw from them.

how many religious gatherings over the centuries have disagreed with eachother, there are multitudes of denominations and they are a house divided against it self. You cannot appeal to the same teachings for all the church for centuries, they disagree on many points. Paul warned and saw prophetically the one man ministry dominating over others and drawing away disciples after them. John saw this to i believe in some sense and warned of men like Diotrephese. Peter saw it also and said not as Lords over God heritage. the corruption and false hoods started to enter the church early in history. We see much of it right after the death of the early apostles.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Does your church have liturgy the way that Timothy's did?

Timothy made all men aware of the set order that Paul delivered and Pauls ways which be in Christ. Paul was a wise masterbuilder under Christ headship. The order has been delivered and it is known as we let the peace of God RULE in our hearts and as we abide in the anointing of the word, and wait on God. What many do today is not the order paul wanted set in every church.
 
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LoveofTruth

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You have only your own interpretation of scripture, which flies in the face of how the entire church has interpreted it for centuries. But you know better, eh.

If my understanding of plain scriptures is true then it doesnt matter what the rest of the world believes.

When Jeremiah ministered many rejected him. But God still wanted him to speak regardless.

The one prophet disagreed with hundreds of false prophets and they wanted him to speak the same as the rest but he stood alone for God. The no name prophet was told to cry against the altar and religious false order of jeroaboam, and he did. Paul said that all in Asia forsook him. But the Lord stood by him. Jesus saw many of His disciples go away and he still pressed on. The entire theater was crying out Diana is our godess and paul was cast out for dead and he still stood alone for truth. Etc. I could go through history as well and show some of the reformers that stood against the entire catholic church etc etc. It is not a matter if I know better. It is the truth of scripture. I could say with Luther this statement somewhat

"Unless I am refuted and convicted by testimonies of the Scriptures or by clear arguments (since I believe neither the Pope nor the Councils alone; it being evident that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am conquered by the Holy Scriptures quoted by me, and my conscience is bound in the word of God: I can not and will not recant any thing, since it is unsafe and dangerous to do any thing against the conscience."
 
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Ken Rank

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No i dont. I use the word as scripture defines it. the word ecclessia ( church) had transitions through time it was spelled differently way back etc. But the meaning of Christ church that he is building is different than man would use. For example believers are the temple of God. But the word temple refers to a pagan religious structure. even when Israel wanted to build a temple, they wanted to pattern themselves after the other nations and also have a king over them like the other nations. God warned them about having a king over them and said they would stop listening to him . And God said what house will ye build me the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands.

But I can use the word temple with the spiritual and scriptural understanding as the body of Christ. Yet if you ask a pagan what a temple is they would say a religious building. The same with a church, the church is the body of Christ,. But if you asked a Greek what the word ecclessia ( church) means they would say a political gathering of state to make decisions etc. This is not the church Jesus is making even though there are some similarities. So i use the word church and define it exactly as the apostles meant it to be defined and Jesus as well.

While you make some good points, the word ekklesia means many things. It can mean, "Call out" or even "called out ones." It can mean "assembly." The word church is actually a bad translation because where ekklesia is dealing with people being called out, the word church, historically, has been more tied to the building. Yes we are the Temple of God or the Beit or House of God, but ekklesia is dealing with being called out. In the Septuagint (and forgive me, I don't know you, so if you know this I am not trying to sound condescending, just wanting to make sure we are communicating) which is the OT translated into Greek in 300BC, we see Israel when coming out of Egypt and when in the wilderness called "ekklesia." So if "church" works in the NT for that word, it works there too which really opens a can of worms most Christians aren't ready to deal with. :)
 
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ViaCrucis

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While you make some good points, the word ekklesia means many things. It can mean, "Call out" or even "called out ones." It can mean "assembly." The word church is actually a bad translation because where ekklesia is dealing with people being called out, the word church, historically, has been more tied to the building. Yes we are the Temple of God or the Beit or House of God, but ekklesia is dealing with being called out. In the Septuagint (and forgive me, I don't know you, so if you know this I am not trying to sound condescending, just wanting to make sure we are communicating) which is the OT translated into Greek in 300BC, we see Israel when coming out of Egypt and when in the wilderness called "ekklesia." So if "church" works in the NT for that word, it works there too which really opens a can of worms most Christians aren't ready to deal with. :)

You're quite right when it comes to the words themselves, I would add:

The most classical use of ekklesia comes from ancient Athens; the ancient Athenian democracy involved a calling out of the voting public to gather together to decide on matters for the city-state.

The English word "church" has a more complex history, you're correct in noting its connection to the church building; the English "church" related to the German "kirche" descends from old German kirke, a borrowing of the Greek kyriake, the possessive form of kyrios ("lord") that is to say it means "lord's". It's a shortened form of kyriake oikos, literally "[the] Lord's house" and has been the standard term to describe the meeting places of the gathered Faithful, the ekklesia.

The online etymology dictionary further states that the word passed into Slavic through a Germanic source, and hence Russian церковь (cerkov).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ken Rank

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The online etymology dictionary further states that the word passed into Slavic through a Germanic source, and hence Russian церковь (cerkov).

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks and you're correct, that site is a treasure and should be a standard stop when studying word roots. For those reading who might want to book mark it:

http://www.etymonline.com/
 
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ViaCrucis

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Luther was addressing the catholic Churches errors, and they seemed to dominate the world
I have read much about Luther

If you've read much about Luther then you know that you can't use Luther to support your positions since Luther believed in the historic catholic Christian Church, in the Office of the Keys, the Sacraments, etc.

the only way we can see if what anyone says is truth is to examine it by scripture and the anointing in all believers. If God commands the believers to edify one another and use their gifts and if any believer can have something revealed to him and share it in the gatherings. This is Gods command Paul says if a man thinks himself spiritual he will acknowledge what Paul wrote were the commandments of the lord. It doesn't matter if men say they like their litergy and one man pastor over all or their form. If they go against Gods commands beware. Paul says in Colossians 2:8 to Beware of mans traditions and rudiments and when men spoil you of your goods, (or hinder you from being a good steward of the manifold grace of God and gifts given for edifying)

And why should I follow your human traditions over what I read in the Scriptures? Why should I assume that the moment the writers of the New Testament took their pen away from the papyrus everything went completely and utterly wrong? Why should I trust that you have better understanding of the Apostles' teaching than someone like St. Ignatius who writes:

"As therefore the Lord did nothing without the Father, being united to Him, neither by Himself nor by the apostles, so neither do anything without the bishop and presbyters. Neither endeavour that anything appear reasonable and proper to yourselves apart; but being come together into the same place, let there be one prayer, one supplication, one mind, one hope, in love and in joy undefiled. There is one Jesus Christ, than whom nothing is more excellent. Therefore run together as into one temple of God, as to one altar, as to one Jesus Christ, who came forth from one Father, and is with and has gone to one." - St. Ignatius to the Magnesians, ch. 7 (c. 107 AD)

This comes from a man who was already very old, there had only been one bishop in Antioch before him: Evodius as recounted by Eusebius in his Histories:

"At this time Ignatius was known as the second bishop of Antioch, Evodius having been the first. Symeon likewise was at that time the second ruler of the church of Jerusalem, the brother of our Saviour having been the first."

Ignatius was alive and well during the ministry of the Apostles, being himself one of those converted by the ministry of either St. Peter or St. Paul while they were in Antioch, or shortly soon after.

This is a legitimate question: Do I trust you to interpret the Scriptures for me or do I give more weight to what someone who actually knew and learned the the Apostles' feet? For me this is a no brainer.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gregory Thompson

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One man pastor ministry is a carry over from the Catholic days, it's a microcosm of the pope phenomena in protestantism. The church illustrated in the bible is more of a family, though over time it has evolved into either a corporation or government style structure.
 
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mikedsjr

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I've been listening to Chris Rosebrough's talk recently on the role of pastor and how modern church growth movement, via the Leadership Network, makes pastors as leaders instead of caretakers. He expressed this as a new phenomenon. Its a brand new paradigm in the church model that has occurred over the past 30-40 years.

I would agree there is a problem with pastors today, particularly Seeker Driven models. They aren't pastors anymore. They are CEOs of religious bodies. They deacons are board members. They cast vision statemets. They don't preach the word anymore. They teach a systems. They preach 5 steps to a better marriage and the scripture references they will use are completely out of context.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I've been listening to Chris Rosebrough's talk recently on the role of pastor and how modern church growth movement, via the Leadership Network, makes pastors as leaders instead of caretakers. He expressed this as a new phenomenon. Its a brand new paradigm in the church model that has occurred over the past 30-40 years.

I would agree there is a problem with pastors today, particularly Seeker Driven models. They aren't pastors anymore. They are CEOs of religious bodies. They deacons are board members. They cast vision statemets. They don't preach the word anymore. They teach a systems. They preach 5 steps to a better marriage and the scripture references they will use are completely out of context.

I agree with this. There is a significant problem with the idea of pastor as "head hauncho" or even worse, as "boss" or "CEO". Pastors are servants. Pastors aren't alpha dogs, their calling is humble service--serving God's Church by preaching the Word and administering the Sacraments. That has been the traditional view for centuries.

Of course the answer to this isn't to abolish the pastorate as set up by the Apostles two thousand years ago; but to put forward the proper understanding of the pastorate as the vocational calling of a servant, ministering to Christ's flock through the ministry of Word and Sacrament.

Further, we often see in popular religion, especially in America, the Cult of the Celebrity Pastor.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LoveofTruth

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While you make some good points, the word ekklesia means many things. It can mean, "Call out" or even "called out ones." It can mean "assembly." The word church is actually a bad translation because where ekklesia is dealing with people being called out, the word church, historically, has been more tied to the building. Yes we are the Temple of God or the Beit or House of God, but ekklesia is dealing with being called out. In the Septuagint (and forgive me, I don't know you, so if you know this I am not trying to sound condescending, just wanting to make sure we are communicating) which is the OT translated into Greek in 300BC, we see Israel when coming out of Egypt and when in the wilderness called "ekklesia." So if "church" works in the NT for that word, it works there too which really opens a can of worms most Christians aren't ready to deal with. :)


I find the word "church a great word. The word ekklessia, does mean a called out assembly gathered together. Jesus defines it as His church he would build. Now we know that the Greek ekklessia is not the church that Jesus is building, just as we know the pagan word Temple that refers to a large building for worhsip is not the temple we are in. Believers are the temple of God and Jesus said his body was the temple. But the word temple has pagan roots. yet Jesus redefines it. if you ask a pagan does the word temple mean the body of Christ? or are Christians the temple of God? they would say no, yet thats what the true temple for us is. The same goes for the word Ekklessia. if you as a greek at that time , do you think the ekklessia is the body of Christ or the house of God made up a spiritual house of living stones assembl;ed together? they would say no. But thats exactly what it is. The Church is a spiritual HOUSE of living stones assembled together in the Lord. This is what the word church means, "the house of a lord" We are the house of a Lord, but he is the Lord of Lords. so we are the house of the LORD. A house is made up of many stones assembled together. This is what the word ekklessia means a called out gathering assembled together. The word Chruch is a wonderful word and covers the various meanings as Christians define the church. Jesus redefined his ekklessia to be the house of God, or the house of the Lord. The word church is a great word because it connects the House of the Lord with the house of a lord, and a house is also made up of many stones, and the church is made up of living stones assembled together.

And the word Kirk changed to become Church over the years.It seems the very word has been redefined according to scripture.

So the bible uses the best word for a assembly gathered together and the living stone of a spiritual house the church as we gather together.

If we just use the word assembly, instead of church, that would create a confusion. there are man y assemblies, the baseball team may assemble for a rally or the house of commons may assemble for work, or there is an assembly line that works in a factory. If we say that Christ died for the assembly, what dos that mean, did he die for every assembly of people?. No
 
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LoveofTruth

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If you've read much about Luther then you know that you can't use Luther to support your positions since Luther believed in the historic catholic Christian Church, in the Office of the Keys, the Sacraments, etc

I do not agree with many things Luther believed and taught. But as i understand at one time Luther agreed that believers should meet in homes and he spoke of the priesthood of all believers. he warned that if a devil got in the so called "pulpit", that would bind up the assembly, so he knew that others must be free to comment. But the anabaptist ( i believe) and others who met in homes swayed him away from that. Luther also wrote against different errors in the catholic church. But he didn't go far enough. I also strongly disagree with baptismal regeneration.



And why should I follow your human traditions over what I read in the Scriptures? Why should I assume that the moment the writers of the New Testament took their pen away from the papyrus everything went completely and utterly wrong? Why should I trust that you have better understanding of the Apostles' teaching than someone like St. Ignatius who writes:

what is teach is by no means "human traditions" I speak of the apostolic doctrine and order as given by Paul the wise master builder.


"As therefore the Lord did nothing without the Father, being united to Him, neither by Himself nor by the apostles, so neither do anything without the bishop and presbyters. Neither endeavour that anything appear reasonable and proper to yourselves apart; but being come together into the same place, let there be one prayer, one supplication, one mind, one hope, in love and in joy undefiled. There is one Jesus Christ, than whom nothing is more excellent. Therefore run together as into one temple of God, as to one altar, as to one Jesus Christ, who came forth from one Father, and is with and has gone to one." - St. Ignatius to the Magnesians, ch. 7 (c. 107 AD)

This comes from a man who was already very old, there had only been one bishop in Antioch before him: Evodius as recounted by Eusebius in his Histories:

"At this time Ignatius was known as the second bishop of Antioch, Evodius having been the first. Symeon likewise was at that time the second ruler of the church of Jerusalem, the brother of our Saviour having been the first."

Ignatius was alive and well during the ministry of the Apostles, being himself one of those converted by the ministry of either St. Peter or St. Paul while they were in Antioch, or shortly soon after.

This is a legitimate question: Do I trust you to interpret the Scriptures for me or do I give more weight to what someone who actually knew and learned the the Apostles' feet? For me this is a no brainer.

-CryptoLutheran


you have no need that any man should teach you 1 John 2:27. You dont need someone to interpret the scripture for you. But God does give teachers. yet when they speak it must be according to the inner witness of the anointing and the word of God and according to scripture.

You say you would believe a man like Ignatious. Well I believe Paul and the apostles, more than the men who came after them. If Paul says for example that elders (plural) should be ordained in every church and city. And ignatious says

"“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, ... Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. […] Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. […] Whatsoever [the bishop] shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 8)

and if Paul warns about men being exalted over others 2 Cor. 11 and he warns for three years night and day with tears that men would rise up among them drawing away disciples after them, should i then ignore Pauls warning and just put one man above all in preeminance. Even when John rebukes this thinking and says that Diotrephes loved to have the preeminance and not to follow such men 3 rd John

And i suppose to ignore the command of God in 1 Cor 14:37,38 which allows every believer in Christ to be able to minister and edify one another? and instead go to the bishop? Am i to ignore John who said you have no need that any man should teach you? And ay yes I need the bishop over me for everything?

and how can we agree with ignatious when he says things like this

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Chapter 7
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

The bread is not the literal body of Jesus

I choose scripture and Pauls words over Ignatious any day. Its a no brainer for me.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I agree with this. There is a significant problem with the idea of pastor as "head hauncho" or even worse, as "boss" or "CEO". Pastors are servants. Pastors aren't alpha dogs, their calling is humble service--serving God's Church by preaching the Word and administering the Sacraments. That has been the traditional view for centuries.

Of course the answer to this isn't to abolish the pastorate as set up by the Apostles two thousand years ago; but to put forward the proper understanding of the pastorate as the vocational calling of a servant, ministering to Christ's flock through the ministry of Word and Sacrament.

Further, we often see in popular religion, especially in America, the Cult of the Celebrity Pastor.

-CryptoLutheran

the word sacrements is not in the NT. And there are more than pastor gifts, there are apostle, prophets, evangelist, and teachers. In fact paul says,

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." 1 Cor 12:28...I noticed that there is not even pastors mentioned here.

So much for the so called church Fathers here. Paul had the revelation and I believe him over others. Also Jesus warned us not to call men "father". This can relate to the Catholic priest being called "father", and to the so called "Church fathers". The dangers of some of their doctrines were perhaps warned of by Jesus way ahead of time. and in the church of Epehesis we read of those that said they were apostles and were found false. This was right after the early apostles were almost gone.

and by the way there were apostles and prophets given to the church after Christ rose from the dead. These were not part of the original 12. This shows that they are still needed until we all come into the unity of the faith unto the perfect man.

Paul was an apostle after Christ rose, so was barnabas, Silvanus and Timotheous
 
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ViaCrucis

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you have no need that any man should teach you 1 John 2:27. You dont need someone to interpret the scripture for you.

Awesome, then I think I'll continue to reject the kool-aid you're selling and stick to Scripture and the historic teaching of the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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LoveofTruth

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Awesome, then I think I'll continue to reject the kool-aid you're selling and stick to Scripture and the historic teaching of the Christian Church.

-CryptoLutheran

Wrong again.

When John wrote that he was not saying that those who read his words should not hear what he was saying and believe it. He knew that if they were of God they would hear Gods words that he spoke. Jesus said also he that is of God heareth Gods words.

When we listen to a man speak we listen for the anointing in us to bare witness. This anointing is the word of God. And if a man speaks not according to the word it is because there is no light in him. But when I speak to you according to the word it is not me you listen to but the word. God gives a teacher gift but it is not the man who just makes up some traditions for men to follow and his own doctrines. It is the Lord who has revealed these things to him. Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ" it is not Paul we are really following, but rather Christ and the Spirit that works in him and leads him. If we have scripture that says all are commanded to wait for the Lord for revelation and doctrines and all gifts and to be allowed to share them, and the man made traditions make this word of God of no effect. Then we are not following God if we "stick to the historic teachings " of men that are their own traditions that make the word of God of no effect.

I would never say to a man just listen to what I teach. I know nothing of spiritual value of myself. But as I abide in Christ and his word and share the word, then hear the word. it will be according to the holy scriptures which are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness.

and Im not selling any kool-aid. Im not selling anything. Unlike the many one man Pastor ministries who bind men up and take from them and who preach false tithing for today in many groups. I also believe that there should not be salaried ministers who get a regular pay check from the body. The only ones we see getting help from the body in this area were the apostolic itinerant workers and preachers who preached the gospel from town to town, 1 Cor. 9. But thats another 45 pages to discuss.

so it is the Holy Spirit that will guide us into all truth. Not just some truth, but ALL truth. And we cannot know the things of God but by the Spirit. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit he cannot even know them. And whether many like it or not 1 John 2:27 is still true. We have no need that any MAN teach us. So consider what i say in the Lord and the spirit and according to the word and you will know the truth. The truth will make you free. It will also make you free from man made bondage and traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect.
 
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Ken Rank

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I find the word "church a great word. The word ekklessia, does mean a called out assembly gathered together. Jesus defines it as His church he would build. Now we know that the Greek ekklessia is not the church that Jesus is building, just as we know the pagan word Temple that refers to a large building for worhsip is not the temple we are in. Believers are the temple of God and Jesus said his body was the temple. But the word temple has pagan roots. yet Jesus redefines it. if you ask a pagan does the word temple mean the body of Christ? or are Christians the temple of God? they would say no, yet thats what the true temple for us is. The same goes for the word Ekklessia. if you as a greek at that time , do you think the ekklessia is the body of Christ or the house of God made up a spiritual house of living stones assembl;ed together? they would say no. But thats exactly what it is. The Church is a spiritual HOUSE of living stones assembled together in the Lord. This is what the word church means, "the house of a lord" We are the house of a Lord, but he is the Lord of Lords. so we are the house of the LORD. A house is made up of many stones assembled together. This is what the word ekklessia means a called out gathering assembled together. The word Chruch is a wonderful word and covers the various meanings as Christians define the church. Jesus redefined his ekklessia to be the house of God, or the house of the Lord. The word church is a great word because it connects the House of the Lord with the house of a lord, and a house is also made up of many stones, and the church is made up of living stones assembled together.

And the word Kirk changed to become Church over the years.It seems the very word has been redefined according to scripture.

So the bible uses the best word for a assembly gathered together and the living stone of a spiritual house the church as we gather together.

If we just use the word assembly, instead of church, that would create a confusion. there are man y assemblies, the baseball team may assemble for a rally or the house of commons may assemble for work, or there is an assembly line that works in a factory. If we say that Christ died for the assembly, what dos that mean, did he die for every assembly of people?. No

If you like the word church that is fine... I do use it you know? :) But ekklesia does indeed mean "call out" as we are his "called out ones" i.e. the ones in the nations who were chasing strange gods whom He called out to follow Him.

As for "pagan words," I do think the whole "church" needs to take some courses in semiotics. It is an internet myth spread by untaught bitter people who think words are pagan. Words are not pagan, they are collections of letters combined to form symbols to point to objects or concepts. And no, I am not including you in the "unlearned and bitter" group. Anyway... a word is a symbol and it is defined by the time and culture the symbol/word is being used. 100 years ago "gay intercourse" meant "happy conversation." We have no ability to force those definitions on our culture today because the entire culture defines those words differently. The word "Temple" means "a building dedicated to the service of a deity or deities." That can be a pagan god or the true God, the word itself doesn't care, it is just pointing at the building itself. The word translated as Temple in the Tanach (OT) actually just means "Big House." :) But a word is merely a symbol that points at an object or concept, nothing more or less.
 
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