Everything is permissable?
- Thread starter Open Heart
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
I see you added more to your reply.
But they would not be converts to Judaism, but to Messianic Judaism. To be a Noachide, and I am surprised you push this, is to NOT believe in JESUS, they consider it idolatry. So Cornelius would not be categorized as being a Noachide. Not only that but breaking their list of 'Noachide' laws subjects one to their capital punishment of beheading. Do you agree with that?
His 'doings' must have been pretty intense for him to be chosen first of the Gentiles to have Peter come visit and to receive the Holy Spirit.
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According to God's word it is possible to keep the 613.No one can keep the 613, you know that, that is reasoning of a frog you know.
Deut 30:11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.
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It depends. United Messianic Jewish Congregations offers a conversion to Messianic Judaism that is considered a conversion to Judaism, just as you can can convert to Reform Judaism or Conservative Judaism.
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1. In Cornelius' day, Christianity was not denounced as idolatry. It was seen more like what we see in Chabad today with the Rebbe, still a sect of Judaism.
2. By today's standards, Cornelius was only a Noahide BEFORE his conversion to Christianity. After that he was, well, a Christian.
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
Not so my sister, we are talking about one man, Cornelius, but what you quoted began with this:
Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:
He was speaking to the whole nation, the whole nation can keep them because they are for a whole nation, you know that, you can't keep the Levitical laws, or the laws pertaining to men etc.
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We'll have to disagree on the interpretation, sis.Not so my sister, we are talking about one man, Cornelius, but what you quoted began with this:
Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:
He was speaking to the whole nation, the whole nation can keep them because they are for a whole nation, you know that, you can't keep the Levitical laws, or the laws pertaining to men etc.
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Oh. I thought we were talking about Noahides/God Fearers in general. Sorry.
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fat wee robin
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Well that was the rumor being spoken. Was it true or not? There is disagreement on how to interpret it.
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I've met Jewish believers on both sides of the fence. I know that Hashivenu teaches that the rumors were wrong, and James set out to prove Paul was a good guy.
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ArtB
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Well, you did something wrong, by plucking a single sentence of what Paul wrote, thereby taking it out of context.
1 Corinthians 10:19-24: "What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that idols is anything, that an idol is anything. No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we? "I have the right to do anything," you say--but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything"--but not everything is constructive. Let not one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor." NASB
1 Corinthians 10:25-30
25 Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without asking questions for conscience' sake; 26 FOR THE EARTH IS THE LORD's, AND ALL IT CONTAINS. 27 If anyone of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake. 28 But if anyone says to you, "This is meat sacrificed to idols," do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for conscience' sake;29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other man's; for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience.
What Paul is teaching is that God gave us a lot of freedom in our choices, but we must not use our freedom to cause weaker believers to stumble - In this situation, Paul says we should not buy meat sacrifice to idols by pagans, if it is going trouble the immature newbies as they believe it is demonic, thus whose conscience will be troubled about it. Then, Paul concludes it is best to buy meat without for their conscience sake, not his, but for those whose will minds that will be troubled by their past. Paul knows that the meat from animals sacrificed to idols is just plain meat, worthy of eating it. Thereby Paul has knows it's okay buy and eat meat that was used for idol sacrifice, but he will not do so if it offends a new Christian if their conscience would be troubled.
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pinacled
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Galatians Ch 2
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Remember the poor.?
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Galatians 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Remembering Faith.
Luke Ch 11
8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
The Law is the School master.
Luke Ch 11
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Remember the poor.?
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Galatians 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Remembering Faith.
Luke Ch 11
8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
The Law is the School master.
Luke Ch 11
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
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pinacled
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I was following the thread and considered the subject.
An understanding of Permissible.
I believe Jesus was giving instruction on how to Share the Torah. In parables of the Bread, Fish, and Egg. Water comes from the Stone and all are Life giving. Because we Live by the Word.
I may post large amounts of scripture at times. I forget some may not read as fast as I can. I would share more but I rather enjoy the Fellowship.
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I can assure you it's not a conversion to Judaism. As for keeping all commandments- you can keep them all, if you're of a priestly stock and ordinary backround at the same time; if you're man and a woman at the same time, etc. It's an absurd notion, of course., but pretty normal for people without basic knowledge of the Torah.
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You can, the problem is there is the assumption that we all have the same paradigm, define all the words the same way, etc. If one important word is defined differently it can change the context of all of it for the other person. So, I would humbly suggest that you either just list the references and then put your commentary so we know what you get from the passage(s) or include them all but still leave your commentary... either way, leave your commentary. That is the only way we will know for sure what it is you desire to contribute.
Blessings.
Ken
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