What was Gods purpose originally for the earth and mankind?

BobRyan

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Nope, but Paul wrote most of the NT and it is through his lens that Christians have typically read the rest of the Bible. And Paul clearly taught predestination in Romans.

Gen 6
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

A little selective in your quoting here. Let's look at what God says after the flood.

"I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."
[/QUOTE]

The Arminian model does not deny depravity or the sinful nature - we argue that God supernaturally "Draws ALL mankind to Himself" John 12:32 and that this "enables the choice" that the sinful nature disables - but it does not 'force the choice' nor predetermine it.

But in Calvinism this whole Gen 6 event is "not allowed" where God repents??? And as you eliminate the "conditional nature" of prophecy in your response you show that this "If I promise this... but then you do that... I will have to reconsider" teaching of Jeremiah 18 tosses Calvinism right out the window - and it fits perfectly with what we see in Genesis 6
 
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smaneck

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But in Calvinism this whole Gen 6 event is "not allowed" where God repents???

I think the notion of God changing His mind or repenting is a problem for most forms of Christianity. But I don't see how it relates to the question of people having free will as far as salvation goes.
 
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MehGuy

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Spiritual ascension through suffering..

Or, he/she/whatever created us and suffering in the universe for his/her/whatever's enjoyment. There is no higher reason or purpose.

You really have to deal with the suffering question.

These were my thoughts as a child and they are still the same today.
 
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BobRyan

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I think the notion of God changing His mind or repenting is a problem for most forms of Christianity. But I don't see how it relates to the question of people having free will as far as salvation goes.

If God has pre-programmed pre-determined everything so that you don't have free will but rather are just a machine fulfilling the precisely determined will and plan of God - then there is no such thing as "Oh my you have turned out really bad. Now I regret having created you - now I will have to destroy you" kind of language.
 
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BobRyan

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Spiritual ascension through suffering..
Or, he/she/whatever created us and suffering in the universe for his/her/whatever's enjoyment. There is no higher reason or purpose.
You really have to deal with the suffering question.
These were my thoughts as a child and they are still the same today.

It is hard to live on this world and not notice the general theme of what the Bible calls "the god of this world" -- the devil. 2Cor 4:4
 
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MehGuy

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It is hard to live on this world and not notice the general theme of what the Bible calls "the god of this world" -- the devil. 2Cor 4:4

Who created Satan?

Who created suffering?
 
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BobRyan

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Who created Satan?

Who created suffering?

When parents have a child and that child grows up to make some bad choices did the parents "created the badness" or does free will exist?

In the Bible - God creates a sinless world with no sickness - free will choices mess it up. Even Lucifer was created with not a single defect. But was not created as a robot.

But the mess that results - that God is rescuing us from ... is altogether "Atheist heaven" from another POV. Think about it - living in the caves and running from dino-preditors vs living today in an air conditioned home!! This has to be atheist heaven! Cancer, heart attack, polio, pandemic, global warming and catastrophes not withstanding it is all atheist heaven.

That means that the worst part of the cycle in the Christian model - is the heaven part of the atheist model!

What is not to like?

Here is an example of an atheist science professor -- raised as a Catholic who came to hate religion.. who came to love belief in evolutionism... and then ... became a Christian.

 
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MehGuy

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When parents have a child and that child grows up to make some bad choices did the parents "created the badness" or does free will exist?

In the Bible - God creates a sinless world with no sickness - free will choices mess it up. Even Lucifer was created with not a single defect. But was not created as a robot.

Are Christians in heaven robots? I never understood the importance of free will, when it sounds like many people will be spending eternity without it..

As far as free will goes, you can have free will without creating the concept of suffering and evil..
 
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BobRyan

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Are Christians in heaven robots? I never understood the importance of free will, when it sounds like many people will be spending eternity without it..

Why do you think that the Christian model is "spending eternity without free will"??

As far as free will goes, you can have free will without creating the concept of suffering and evil..

Ok - so you prefer robots-and-no-risk. That is not what you have in the Christian model ... and that is not what you have in atheism.

Or are you saying that free will with no risk of failure even at the starting point is what you have worked out?
 
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MehGuy

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Why do you think that the Christian model is "spending eternity without free will"??

Do Christians have the ability to rebel and sin in heaven?



Ok - so you prefer robots-and-no-risk. That is not what you have in the Christian model ... and that is not what you have in atheism.

Robot? You could still have free will even if you removed a few variables. As far as expression goes there are probably countless things we cannot do because we cannot conceive of them. Why would God give beings the knowledge of doing wrong and wronging each other?

As far as what I prefer, reality doesn't give a crap.. lol.
 
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BobRyan

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Do Christians have the ability to rebel and sin in heaven?

Robots are controlled.motivated, via programming alone.
Free will beings need compelling evidence, compelling argument ... take a look at Job 1 -- and Job 2 in the Bible - an "experiment".

Take a look at Daniel 7 - where badness is only resolved once the compelling evidence, experiment - demonstration is evaluated in judgment.



Robot? You could still have free will even if you removed a few variables.

Please describe that for us -- and still have free will maintained.

Lot's of parents today have children with free will - and so far "risk" is there.



As far as expression goes there are probably countless things we cannot do because we cannot conceive of them. Why would God give beings the knowledge of doing wrong and wronging each other?

Free will by definition means you have the choice to obey or not to obey.

God's law was simple "Love God" Deut 6:5 -- and "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18.
For Adam it was simple "Lots of food ... just don't eat from one of the trees" a more simple "test" to exercise fledgling free will could hardly be imagined.

The knowledge of good and evil -- was not some secret mystical encyclopedia of bad ideas in Eden -- it was the simple "Act" of eating fruit that was forbidden... the simple act of rebellion and the thought process that went into choosing it when nothing their heavenly parent had done to them - had ever been bad ... only loving and kind.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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MehGuy

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Robots are controlled.motivated, via programming alone.
Free will beings need compelling evidence, compelling argument ... take a look at Job 1 -- and Job 2 in the Bible - an "experiment".

Take a look at Daniel 7 - where badness is only resolved once the compelling evidence, experiment - demonstration is evaluated in judgment.


Can you answer the question. Once Christians are in heaven can they sin and disobey God?





Please describe that for us -- and still have free will maintained.

Even within limited variables, you'd still have free will. To say that getting rid of one variable is akin to making you a mindless robot is silly..


Lot's of parents today have children with free will - and so far "risk" is there.

What does this have to do with anything?





Free will by definition means you have the choice to obey or not to obey.

If you're not given the knowledge of sin and rebellion, this is irrelevant.

How many other possible ways of acting an being could a God be withholding from us?
 
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MehGuy

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To be human is to be ignorant. Being ignorant of the miscellaneous is fine, but to be ignorant of the concept of sinning and torturing each other makes God sad, lol.

Honestly the only being that has true free will would be an omniscient being.
 
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BobRyan

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To be human is to be ignorant. Being ignorant of the miscellaneous is fine, but to be ignorant of the concept of sinning and torturing each other makes God sad, lol.

Honestly the only being that has true free will would be an omniscient being.

I think it is more true that the person with the least free will is the omniscient being. Imagine if you knew exactly every word you would speak for the rest of this one day -- at the end of the day you might feel as if you had no free will at all.

The heart and soul of free will is not knowing what will happen or what you will choose in the future.
 
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BobRyan

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Can you answer the question. Once Christians are in heaven can they sin and disobey God?

They can - but they will not.

I can place my hand on a red hot stove - -but I will not.


Free will is motivated by data, experiment, compelling argument.. facts

Robots need none of that to act as preprogrammed.

========================

At every step God paid a high price for the free will option.

He could have just zapped Lucifer out of existence with his first bad idea.
He could have zapped the Angels that chose to join Lucifer the moment they made their choice --
He could have zapped Eve before she ever reached Adam.

Free will in God's system is not the only rule. God also has the rule of love - and zapping evil as soon as it appears - creates a system of fear and nothing else.

All those choices - losing 1/3 of the Angels... losing planet earth - and then dying on the cross paying the debt owed for all sins for all mankind in all of time....

Very expensive route for God to take -- just to maintain the universe of intelligent beings in a context of free will - and Love for God
 
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MehGuy

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I think it is more true that the person with the least free will is the omniscient being. Imagine if you knew exactly every word you would speak for the rest of this one day -- at the end of the day you might feel as if you had no free will at all.

The heart and soul of free will is not knowing what will happen or what you will choose in the future.

Well, the ability to predict the future would be an indication that reality is predetermined. Unfortunately this scenario would also mean that human beings fail to possess free will too..

The fact that an omnipresent being would be more aware of it is irrelevant.

Feeling like you have no free will is not the same as not having free will, likewise feeling like you have free will is not the same as having free will.
 
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MehGuy

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They can - but they will not.

I can place my hand on a red hot stove - -but I will not.




Free will is motivated by data, experiment, compelling argument.. facts

Why won't they? People fail all the time on earth, what will make heaven different?

You think an x amount of Christians will not slip up at least once throughout eternity? The notion that a free will being wouldn't is ridiculous.




At every step God paid a high price for the free will option.

He could have just zapped Lucifer out of existence with his first bad idea.
He could have zapped the Angels that chose to join Lucifer the moment they made their choice --
He could have zapped Eve before she ever reached Adam.

Free will in God's system is not the only rule. God also has the rule of love - and zapping evil as soon as it appears - creates a system of fear and nothing else.

Yeah, threatening people with eternal torture and (at best) annihilation is much better..

All those choices - losing 1/3 of the Angels... losing planet earth - and then dying on the cross paying the debt owed for all sins for all mankind in all of time....

Very expensive route for God to take -- just to maintain the universe of intelligent beings in a context of free will - and Love for God

From reading the Bible I fail to see where the notion that God loves free will came from (at least free will as you define it..). He specifically told Adam and Eve to not eat the fruit from the forbidden tree of good and evil. He wanted them to remain ignorant. When they disobeyed him God cursed them and spread suffering throughout the world. Was God just engaging in entrapment?
 
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BobRyan

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Why won't they? People fail all the time on earth, what will make heaven different?

Romans 3 - on earth we all have sinful natures -- we are not born sinless or neutral -- but rather with a bent toward sin. In heaven we will not have that sinful nature. In heaven we will have the company of sinless beings who "Love God with all their heart" and also "Love their neighbor as themselves" and we will have the infinite supply of food shelter science discovery travel family etc.

The whole point of 6000 years of sin and salvation.. vs 6 minutes of it... was/is to provide the sort of experiment that proves that rebellion in all of its forms does not work out best for the society that embraces it. That forms a kind of inoculation for all eternity against this sort of thing.

As I said - I have the free will to place my hand on a hot stove - but I will not do it.

That is not the ridiculous idea that you seem to think it is.

Sin is a cancer it destroys paradise and creates horrible living conditions - separated from God - steeped in ignorance.


From reading the Bible I fail to see where the notion that God loves free will came from (at least free will as you define it..).

John 1:11 "He came to His own and His own received Him not"
Rev 3 "behold I STAND at the door and knock if anyone hears my voice AND opens the door - I will come in"
Matt 23 "Jerusalem Jerusalem - ... How I wanted to spare your children..but you would not"
As Joshuah said "choose you this day whom you will serve.. as for me and my house we will serve the Lord"
2 Cor 5 "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself... we beg you on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God"


He specifically told Adam and Eve to not eat the fruit from the forbidden tree of good and evil. He wanted them to remain ignorant.

There was no "brilliant encyclopedia of bad ideas embedded in fruit" -- the simple act of doing what they were told not to do - as "the knowledge of evil" nothing else was needed.

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law".

The ISIS, Hitler, Stalin, Cain, Nimrod.. result is not "brilliance" or "much to be sought after".

When they disobeyed him God cursed them and spread suffering throughout the world. Was God just engaging in entrapment?

1. God deprived them of access to the Tree of Life - so yeah they died after about 900 years of life.
2. God increased the pain of child birth for the woman - so it is what it is today.
3. God caused weeds to grow in the garden as they do today.

But that world was still pretty much paradise even so. It was mankind that then took it to such a level of violence and crime that God wiped them all out with the flood after about 1500 years of it.

And so then - starting over with just 8 people (worshipers of God) it took many centuries for them to return - as a planet, back to that state of crime and evil perfected so well in that first 1500 years.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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smaneck

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He could have zapped the Angels that chose to join Lucifer the moment they made their choice -

Man, that king of Babylon really got around!

I wonder when Christians first started imagining that the devil's name was Lucifer?
 
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