The Confederate Flag

Armoured · Jun 30, 2015

Tina W said:
Yeah it's still a racist symbol even if the person flying it claims they are not racist. It's like an atheist having crucifixes and crosses in his yard and saying "to me it doesn't represent God and Christianity". They are still symbols of Christianity even if it doesn't seem that way to you. It doesn't make sense, it's illogical to fly symbols of something if you don't believe in or agree with what those symbols represent. It makes a person look crazy. An atheist would look crazy having crosses and crucifixes in their yard yet saying they are atheist and don't believe in Christianity and those symbols don't mean Christianity to them. You would think deep down that atheist really believes in God and is lying to himself.... And even you claim it doesn't represent that to you, still to most people who see crosses and crucifixes, it represents God or Christianity just like no matter how much you try to say that confederate rag doesn't mean the same to you, to most people that's what it represents.

Then those people are making the error of imbuing a symbol with an inherent meaning. I contend no such thing exists.

Armoured · Jun 30, 2015

KitKatMatt said:
Have you ever been to America, specifically the South?

Because of the removal of the country flags, I didn't know you were from Australia.

Let me put my own location into perspective: I'm from the South. In fact, I'm from an area where the KKK is still active. Not too many years ago, a nearby town made national news after the horrible murder of a black man (dragged to death behind a truck by white supremacists who offered him a ride). I see innumerable confederate flags daily, along with a fair share of Nazi-styled swastikas (no flags, mostly stickers and visible tattoos). I would say about 30% of the time, I see these two symbols around the same person.

Perhaps my upbringing has made me connect these symbol and ideals more than someone who has not lived in this area. I don't know what your personal experience with these symbols has been, and I would be interested in learning so that maybe we could understand why we feel differently about them.

Yep, been to the US, including the South. I remember the horrible case you mentioned.

Look, let me make it very clear I am not apologising for racism, or for racists who use swastikas and the confederate flag as symbols. They certainly exist, and their ideology is abhorent. I'm not even saying that people shouldn't assume there is racism implicit when they see those symbols being used. Because if the majority of users of a symbol use it to stand for racist ideas, it's fair to assume that's what it's being used as... until otherwise explained.

The entirety of my point, is that the racism isn't inherent in any symbol, and that is someone uses such a symbol with no racist intent, it's not a racist symbol, because how can a symbol, in and of itself, be racist?

KitKatMatt · Jul 1, 2015

A symbol can promote a racist ideology based on its history and how it was used.

I'll use the fandom example you were using earlier: Dukes of Hazzard.

The right way to publicly display membership to a fandom is to display a symbol that another fan can immediately link to that fandom. Otherwise, no one knows you're a fan, which totally defeats the purpose of publicly displaying your love of the fandom.

Just a Confederate flag doesn't really link you to the fandom at all, because it kind of has a BIG historical meaning outside the fandom. It's used by people that aren't in the fandom at all for their own reasons, which makes things confusing. If you put a sticker of the Confederate flag on your bumper, you're mixing yourself up with people who use it for those other reasons.

However, this design incorporating the Confederate design is clearly a piece of Dukes merchandise:

A fan instantly knows that this is referring to the General Lee. It is separate from the actual Confederate flag because of the fandom customization (the 01), and thus someone glancing at this wouldn't take it to mean the same thing the full Confederate flag would mean.

That's not to say that someone who is a fan shouldn't own a Confederate flag, but honestly if you want to publicly say "I'm a fan of this!", you need to display a symbol unique to your fandom.

The other day I was driving through town, and a truck drove past me with a large confederate flag flying from his truck bed (pole held down by a tire). The very last thing on my mind was "Hey, I bet he's a Dukes of Hazzard fan!". If he was a fan and was trying to display his fandom, he didn't go about it the best way (especially considering where I live).

Moral Orel · Jul 1, 2015

Armoured said:
The entirety of my point, is that the racism isn't inherent in any symbol, and that is someone uses such a symbol with no racist intent, it's not a racist symbol, because how can a symbol, in and of itself, be racist?

I agree with you, to a point. The symbol didn't enslave people, people did. The problem is that the symbol is now guilty by association with people who support racism. So when people see the symbol, they immediately invoke an emotional response just like they would to racism.

I think of it like bad language. Personally, I swear a lot. There is no word that I won't say, and I say them all frequently. I like to say that I "drop the F-Bomb like it's a comma" and that's no exaggeration. There is nothing offensive about a word, in my opinion, only in the way you use it. Who decided that saying "the F-Bomb" is bad but saying "friggin" is okay? People attach a meaning to things that they maybe shouldn't. So I agree that people shouldn't be offended by something that shouldn't inherently be offensive.

Trouble is, they are. People are offended by bad language, and so when I am around people that would be offended, I don't use it. If I wasn't censored here on CF with the whole "bless and do not curse" thing, I still wouldn't use bad language because I don't want to upset people. I sacrifice my right to say what I want in order to keep everyone feeling happy because the enjoyment I get from swearing doesn't compare to the discomfort I would cause by doing something that other people find offensive for absolutely no logical reason.

So when it comes to the confederate flag, maybe think about how much it affects people that are affected by the repercussions of slavery and the fight for civil rights and not exercise your right to be offensive to them just because it doesn't have to mean what it does to them.

Moral Orel · Jul 1, 2015

Paradoxum said:
I doubt anyone flies the US flag from their house. Some probably wear the US flags on clothing though. And no one would think that's bad.

I don't see how that's the same though. The US was against slavery (eventually). The Confederacy was always in favour of slavery, and retaining slavery was a main motivation for it's existence.

As 'Holoman' said, a normal person flying our own flag can be seen as potentially racist, and I'd see strong nationalism as being associated with Nazism.

I was just pointing out the treasonous aspect of the confederate flag. Much like the American flag would have been a treasonous symbol to you folk. Just as an extra aside from the whole racism/slavery thing.

Armoured · Jul 1, 2015

KitKatMatt said:
A symbol can promote a racist ideology based on its history and how it was used.

I'll use the fandom example you were using earlier: Dukes of Hazzard.

The right way to publicly display membership to a fandom is to display a symbol that another fan can immediately link to that fandom. Otherwise, no one knows you're a fan, which totally defeats the purpose of publicly displaying your love of the fandom.

Just a Confederate flag doesn't really link you to the fandom at all, because it kind of has a BIG historical meaning outside the fandom. It's used by people that aren't in the fandom at all for their own reasons, which makes things confusing. If you put a sticker of the Confederate flag on your bumper, you're mixing yourself up with people who use it for those other reasons.

However, this design incorporating the Confederate design is clearly a piece of Dukes merchandise:

A fan instantly knows that this is referring to the General Lee. It is separate from the actual Confederate flag because of the fandom customization (the 01), and thus someone glancing at this wouldn't take it to mean the same thing the full Confederate flag would mean.

That's not to say that someone who is a fan shouldn't own a Confederate flag, but honestly if you want to publicly say "I'm a fan of this!", you need to display a symbol unique to your fandom.

The other day I was driving through town, and a truck drove past me with a large confederate flag flying from his truck bed (pole held down by a tire). The very last thing on my mind was "Hey, I bet he's a Dukes of Hazzard fan!". If he was a fan and was trying to display his fandom, he didn't go about it the best way (especially considering where I live).

I like that graphic. Cool find.

TerranceL · Jul 1, 2015

GoldenBoy89 said:
This is the flag of The US at that time. Notice it is not the same as the flag we currently have.

And yet to the Native it doesn't appear to make a difference. And the current flag we have has been flown in places where we are hated and loathed.

Should we stop flying it to consider their feelings?

quatona · Jul 1, 2015

Paradoxum said:
I don't think one requires an authority to have a reasonable opinion.

So when I say "For me this is a symbol for X" and you say "It´s a symbol for Y" - whose opinion is "more reasonable"?

TerranceL · Jul 1, 2015

Paradoxum said:
I don't think they are racist, but what a Nazi uniform means isn't a completely subjective thing. They actually killed people, and racism was a core part of the ideology.

So did pirates, vikings, and half a dozen other groups we have no problem with.

I don't think there's anything wrong with 'cultural imperialism' if the culture is justified. It's only a problem if it's unjustified.

Your imperialist ancestors are smiling right now.

saintandrew4life · Jul 1, 2015

putting away this flags of hate will not change history :hug:

KWCrazy · Jul 1, 2015

Armoured said:
Citation?

You doubt it? Why?
This took about two seconds, but you can also find it on Snopes.
What other president ever condemned speaking ill of the false prophet of Islam??

Eudaimonist · Jul 1, 2015

saintandrew4life said:
putting away this flags of hate will not change history

No, but it might change future history.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Armoured · Jul 1, 2015

rider99 said:
You doubt it? Why?
This took about two seconds, but you can also find it on Snopes.
What other president ever condemned speaking ill of the false prophet of Islam??

You forget to mention the rest of the quote's context.

Bearing false witness is a sin, you know?

KWCrazy · Jul 1, 2015

Armoured said:
You forget to mention the rest of the quote's context.
Bearing false witness is a sin, you know?

So why are you bearing false witness against me? I gave an exact quote and even included the punctuation. It is not required to post the entire speech, not an entire book, nor an entire article. In fact, that's illegal. What I quoted was exactly what was said. The point was his inclusion of slandering the "prophet" of Islam, which is Sharia law not American law.

GoldenBoy89 · Jul 1, 2015

KitKatMatt said:
The other day I was driving through town, and a truck drove past me with a large confederate flag flying from his truck bed (pole held down by a tire). The very last thing on my mind was "Hey, I bet he's a Dukes of Hazzard fan!". If he was a fan and was trying to display his fandom, he didn't go about it the best way (especially considering where I live).

Also makes you wonder just how many people really are Dukes of Hazzard fans and not just racists.

Tallguy88 · Jul 1, 2015

The Confederacy had slavery for 4 years. The United States had slavery for over 80 years.

Slavery didn't end when Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, or the North won the Civil War. It was finally ended in 1870, a full 5 years after the war.

Red Fox · Jul 1, 2015

LOVEthroughINTELLECT said:
The flag of the United States of America symbolizes a country that committed the genocide of Native Americans, but nobody is saying that it is wrong to fly the U.S. flag.

Actually, speaking as a Native American, you won't find that filthy rag anywhere near where I am, unless of course, it is to fly it upside down in protest or to burn it.

Red Fox · Jul 1, 2015

KitKatMatt said:
How am I being PC?

The symbol means racism to me. Every time I think of people I know who display this flag, I can't find one who isn't racist.

I think of the people I know who "don't see why people would be offended over the Confederate flag", and they're also racist.

They're not Neo-Nazi's or KKK members, but they are racist. They view anyone who is not white as sub-human and feral. They might be nice to someone for a short face-to-face meeting, but it's their attitudes when they think they're not being heard betray them. Most of them don't even realize it, which is the sad part to me.

This symbol has had meaning brought to it.

I've seen that Confederate rag being flown around where I live here in the South, and it's usually flying, right next to the american rag, on some tobacco spitting cowboy wannabe redneck's pick up truck, with their windows down, blaring that country music, on their way home from church on Sunday afternoons.

Red Fox · Jul 1, 2015

Armoured said:
Being on the winning side hath its privileges.

Yes, inadvertently benefiting from a mass genocide of Native American men, women AND children is definitely something to be proud of... (note of sarcasm)

Oh yes, as a Native American, I'm all giddy over the mass destruction of my ancestors and the mass cultural genocide committed against my culture and heritage.

I can really feel pride in all that, can't you?! Wow! All this "pride" makes me want to go out and burn one of its rags, I mean flags, no, no, I do mean rags.

Tallguy88 · Jul 1, 2015

Red Fox said:
I've seen that Confederate rag being flown around where I live here in the South, and it's usually flying, right next to the american rag, on some tobacco spitting cowboy wannabe redneck's pick up truck, with their windows down, blaring that country music, on their way home from church on Sunday afternoons.

More Natives fought for the South than did the North.

The Confederate Flag

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