Another "men's" breakfast, yet another "bold" approach (sigh)

Gen X · Jun 30, 2015

As a single man, who is a Christian, and not only has heard God's word, but daily attempts to live it...........

My city has a "network" for Men that supposedly 'equips' us and teaches us to "man up" and step up to the challenges facing our community. There is a variety of churches involved. We have this monthly breakfast where there is a speaker or pastor and we get the usual lecture of:

Men are not stepping up in their families
Men are not doing enough for the church
Men are not coming to church
Men are not "bold" and "courageous"
Men just want sex
Men don't come to church because they can't face their depraved nature
Men are making all these 'fatherless' homes and we men in the church are not doing enough to help single mothers

The list goes on, perhaps you as a man have heard the same drivel, over and over again yourself. Let me give you the demographic of the men who come to these breakfasts and 'network' meetings.

Mostly white
Mostly over the age of sixty
ALL have been married for at least 25, 35, 40, 45 years.....or more
Most are retired, or have had positions in their work careers that gave them the luxury of not worrying where their next meal would come from, or how they were going to pay the rent every month.
Most are paunchy, overweight, and evidently know how to 'relate' to men
Every month the words I hear over and over again are: reaching out, bold, outreach, programs, tools, equip, challenge

I am the youngest or if not, very close to the youngest man who comes to these meetings, and I am in my mid forties. The reason why I am afforded this luxury is because I have a dull-wage slave job that usually doesn't start until the night comes (grateful for work, I live a very economically depressed area.....even in good times). I am not married. I don't have children.

Well, today....evidently the message and lecture was that "men don't come to church" because there are no "resources" out there for them. So they showed us this new "webpage" with stuff for men to uplift them and help them be better fathers, husbands, leaders, and Christians...........

It only costs ten bux a month to be a member, and they have videos of sermons by pastors that "love" men evidently. Pastor's like Mark Driscoll who "screams" at men with "How Dare You!" sermons. Sermons from men like Perry Noble who tell men to "grow some" and ask women out! Information that is high on advice, but has little application. Advice telling men that they all have inappropriate content problems, they are no good, depraved, and need to listen to the "wise counsel of their wives"

Only ten bux a month! Step right up! The webpage looks like its was designed by an old man using a "build your own webpage" he got for free on Google. Boy, these guys were just so proud of themselves...because if men "out in the world" and in "church" can get help from "real men" by a webpage they will change their lives tomorrow, come to church, repent, and suddenly be the "Godly man, that God wants him to be"

Man, it was a laugh.......wow.....men just need to go on this invention called "the Internet" and get help, find this webpage, pay 10 bux a month to be shamed, belittled, yelled at, and told what they are not doing. Brilliant! If ONLY someone had thought of this sooner!

My take on helping men today? Convincing them that they need a Savior? Bringing them into church? Growing them to conform daily to God's Son?????????

Want my take? TB (too bad) you're gonna hear it

No more "workshops" no more "bold directions and bold plans" no more "tools" and "resources" to equip them. No more angry sermons made to tickle the women's ears and shame the men that are in church. No more stories that if "we just made the praise music loud, with hard rock with smoke machines and lights the men will relate to this"

NO. NO! Ten thousand times NO!

Men today who are out there in the world are HURTING. They want questions answered about Christ's love, forgiveness, and regeneration. They want to see men who not only have heard the Word, but live it. They want prayer, comforting words, and hope about their own lives. Answers to TOUGH questions.....why did I lose my job? why did she leave / divorce me? why didn't my father love me? why can't I seem to get ahead? i am so sick and tired of being sick and tired.......and nothing calms, helps, comforts, or answers. why did god allow this? my kids are driving me crazy, every-time i lead, my wife undermines my authority with them. what good can god do for me when i am unforgiveable?

These questions are HARD to answer. HARD to work through. It will take TIME and WORK by a church community to do this, and fix this. Something MOST Christians inside the walls DON'T want to do. It's easier to say "we'll give you the tools" and the overused word of "leadership" (I have heard this word used more inside the church than outside). The church has enough "leaders" so to speak. It needs followers now. Followers of Jesus Christ...not followers of a 'bold' pastor. Men inside the church are going to have to face the fact they THEY are going to have to do this. Christ called YOU.

These workshops, seminars, tools, and equipping "classes" look great on paper, but they do little.

The best example is Christ. He did it with no medium except Truth. Pastors say today "Jesus would have loved an iphone and Facebook"

No, he wouldn't. It really wouldn't serve a purpose to him. His purpose WAS relational. It wasn't "I'll post a tweet and all will be well"

and pastors who say this by the way forget the FACT that many churches are downright poor (my church....most people could not afford an iphone, and have to use the computer at the library).

It's easy to puff yourself up today as man in church that has nice teeth, a cute wife, good hair and a good speaking voice to tell "the rest of us" what we are not, and bemoan that "men are not stepping up"

Their message is never looked at. Their outlook is never questioned. Their position is deemed beyond reproach.

I agree men need to be men. I agree more needs to be done.....but what WE are purporting and doing isn't working, and it's time to really take it back and see, not just read....but really, really focus on how Jesus ministered. His message is for all time........but hey, I'm just a single Christian man with no credentials.......no seminary training. No "bold" ministry of living in Timbuktu for two years (yet these same people who do ministry like this ignore the shanty trailer park across their town near the railroad tracks and toxic-waste dump). I don't have the looks that are deemed "cute" "hot" by a cultural standard.......so my opinion means nothing in the church today concerning these matters.........

dayhiker · Jun 30, 2015

Hi Gen X,
I can certainly relate to what your saying. Thanks for sharing what's on your heart.
I was talking to a Christian man a couple of weeks ago who's brother was pastoring the church his family had gone to for decades.
He felt the church was all about creating a world where they were in power and told everyone else what to do. So they wanted everyone tithing
and spending all their spare time in church activities so the pastors could have their kingdom. He finally had to leave, as he couldn't take it any more.

As for myself, I have a ministerial degree, I was an associate pastor for 14 yrs and taught SS for over 30 years. But I was so insulated from
people that I didn't feel I was really helping them and I didn't feel I was doing much for God. I still go to church to sing the worship songs and
I love to hear a good message even if I don't much agree with it. A few years ago I felt God saying for me to be a friend to people. With my
divorce I had time to go spend with people and accept them as any friend would accept his best friend who was going thru things. Its interesting,
I now see church is often creating its own world within the world that often has limited connection with others out there. They make a big deal out of
things that aren't hurting people and do little to really help people that are hurting. The result over the past few years has been that I have shared
my faith in Jesus with more people than I did when I was attending church. These people I have friended have come back to me and said I'm have
the most living heart heart on any one they have every known. That I'm grounded and secure in myself etc etc. I now understand Jesus in a way
that I didn't get when he was out among the people and the people loved Him but the Jewish leaders wouldn't accept Him.
I had one Jewish woman say to me that I was the 1st true Christians she had meet in her entire life, this was so meaningful to her that she called
her friend over to me to introduce me.

While I still love going to church, I can't be a leader there any longer, what I think is important to God is too far from what they think is important.

Gen X · Jun 30, 2015

Look, I can't understand or wrap my mind around exactly what Christ has in store for me, or what he expects me to do, or even HOW to do it.

I do know I need Him. Badly. My sin is steeped, and fitful. It has been a hindering block of how I am supposed to do His will.

My fellowship in the church is a bit difficult. I am admired for how I just "get things done" inside the rock that need to be done without complaint. yes, I have some gifts....we all do. I am not ashamed of His Gospel. My 'primitive' Salvationism involves me walking the streets of my neighborhood in my Salvation Army uniform, being active in the local 'hood like they use to do in Victorian London. My works, humble as they are, are in Christ's name. Not mine.

If we are to get men in the church, or more involved or at the bare least of just trying to learn about why Christ came for all of us there has...no, there must be a deeper relational walk. Satan has such a bind on so many. Satan has used every "tool" at his disposal, and the greatest one we as Believers we have we prefer not to use......we have the attitude of someone else has to do it. Men who are mature in spirit and comfortable in the walk are gonna have to start mentoring, walking with those men in the church who DO need help, to grow them, and teach them. These men may have to comfort, and dry tears......help that man come to repentance, and not only learn but to apply it. We also are going to have to go outside the church too. I am not talking about passing out tracks at the shopping mall.

This isn't going to be easy. What other way is there right now?

More classes? More podcasts? More books? More workshops? More attitude of "you know, they, just are not getting it. let's build a bigger church to 'reach out' to all these broken people"

Look, the resources are there, out there on the Internet...........tons of them. Pastor's would rather admonish men in the church that are already there with "funny" jokes, and shame filled admonishment. Men DON'T need to be challenged. They need answers. They won't come to a place that treats them like this.

How come the churches are not full if what we all are doing is such 'amazing work'????????????????

Jesus walked. Jesus taught. He spoke with genuine love, truth. Jesus could listen to sinners, and their situations and he also wasn't afraid to confront sin. Jesus also wasn't afraid to get with the sinners......where they were. He knew right from wrong. Jesus wants a relationship restored with God. Our actions on the street are gonna have to show. Our pompus in church talk about family, how many souls were saved last week....the tithing report for the 'building fund' it's all nonsense. Since when did church become a 'business' model for corporate worship? I deal with "work" Mon-Sat and the last place I want to feel like work is inside church. There is a difference between service for His glory and my livelihood of how I pay my bills........

Have any of you actually just tried to help someone when they were in spiritual crisis? What about a tough question? I wrestled for YEARS about my older brother (Downs' Syndrome w/ profound mental retardation/ chronic health problems)....."what kind of God would allow this?????????? I have to take care of my brother, for everything." It stunted me for years. I could never have friends over (my brother was ALWAYS sick, or going to / coming from a hospital). I could never learn 'social skills' when dealing with girls, and then women because while everyone else was out being a teenager, I was at home helping care for my brother. I never learned even how to flirt with a girl...........

It has affected me to this day here....and I STILL wrestle with this.

You just can't quote a scripture and make it better for that person when you have a healthy, normal sibling. You have to, MUST walk with that person. Satan himself, who knows Scripture just as well as many a pastor just WANTS you to give a scripture, take the easy solution...........and that is what happened to me countless times by professed Christians. An old man who brought me to Christ would not 'give up on me'

He wanted a relationship with me.

He cried with me. He listened. He let me ramble. He loved on me.....and after my talk FINALLY tired.....slowly, at solid moments...he gently interjected the Gospel of Christ. Look, we are going to fail with many out there in the world. That does not excuse us inside the rock to shrug our shoulders anymore and say "I'll pray for you"

It will take much more work, and frankly...with most I am not seeing it

dayhiker · Jun 30, 2015

Gen X -- the help you gave to your brother is for as great a reward as anything else you could do as far as I'm concern.

As for learning social skills with the ladies, I'd say just start talking with an lady you have time to talk to. Practice is what it takes to do any relationship as far as I can see.

Gen X · Jun 30, 2015

LOL......thanks for the encouragement.....but have talked with women for a LONG time over the decades.........just not happening. Crucial skills at a crucial age were never learned; and now? Well.......all I can say is that I have to come to terms and acceptance over this....yeah, it's hard.

blackribbon · Jul 1, 2015

All I can say, is AMEN. The churches are full of hurting people and instead of teaching God love and acceptance. It is time to accept the humanity of people instead of trying to make them into little gods of perfection. To be like Jesus means we love people in their imperfections and troubles.

miss-a · Jul 1, 2015

I agree, many stale teachings need an overhaul for both men and women. I've for some time questioned the teachings that tell men they can't control their eyes and that all they want is sex are very counterproductive. Shouldn't we be teaching that those are the very things that the love of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit freed them from? What if we taught them, well I don't know, that they are free in Christ? A new creation? An overcomer? With a purpose? A friend of God? I think when we teach people that they are bad, perverse, slaves to their own selves, we give them not only the excuse, but the encouragement to be that, and I think it just might break God's heart.

The weird thing is that the people purveying these teachings think they're doing the right thing. They beleive they are serving God and His people. I'm not sure what the solution is to that.

I'm a bit appalled that those guys charge for the site they think will save men, but it's good they do, because it sounds like not many people could afford it, so the site won't be used.

I'm posting a site with some very good teachings that step out of the stale mold. Maybe, Gen X, listening to them will encourage you that there is a movement out there teaching God's love, God as friend, and encouragement that we are new creations. And who knows, you might just run into a man or two who would listen to them, as well, and one by one some guys would begin healing. They call them freedom classes. They are not just for men. I know you may be burned out on teachings, but these are truly refreshing and life changing, they go against the grain toward the heart of God, for real. So please at least watch this first one. I think you'll see the difference. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=465B3981EE127E90101C465B3981EE127E90101C Here's the link for the rest of the series: http://gatewaypeople.com/ministries/freedom/events/foundational-classes

Thanks for speaking out. More of us need to do that.

Gen X · Jul 2, 2015

eh......celebrity pastors......the clips, each pastor is treated like a rock star........didn't watch the rest

exitstageright · Jul 3, 2015

Gen X said:
As a single man, who is a Christian, and not only has heard God's word, but daily attempts to live it...........

My city has a "network" for Men that supposedly 'equips' us and teaches us to "man up" and step up to the challenges facing our community. There is a variety of churches involved. We have this monthly breakfast where there is a speaker or pastor and we get the usual lecture of:

Men are not stepping up in their families

Men are not doing enough for the church

Men are not coming to church

Men are not "bold" and "courageous"

Men just want sex

Men don't come to church because they can't face their depraved nature

Men are making all these 'fatherless' homes and we men in the church are not doing enough to help single mothers

The list goes on, perhaps you as a man have heard the same drivel, over and over again yourself. Let me give you the demographic of the men who come to these breakfasts and 'network' meetings.

Mostly white

Mostly over the age of sixty

ALL have been married for at least 25, 35, 40, 45 years.....or more

Most are retired, or have had positions in their work careers that gave them the luxury of not worrying where their next meal would come from, or how they were going to pay the rent every month.

Most are paunchy, overweight, and evidently know how to 'relate' to men

Every month the words I hear over and over again are: reaching out, bold, outreach, programs, tools, equip, challenge

I am the youngest or if not, very close to the youngest man who comes to these meetings, and I am in my mid forties. The reason why I am afforded this luxury is because I have a dull-wage slave job that usually doesn't start until the night comes (grateful for work, I live a very economically depressed area.....even in good times). I am not married. I don't have children.

Well, today....evidently the message and lecture was that "men don't come to church" because there are no "resources" out there for them. So they showed us this new "webpage" with stuff for men to uplift them and help them be better fathers, husbands, leaders, and Christians...........

It only costs ten bux a month to be a member, and they have videos of sermons by pastors that "love" men evidently. Pastor's like Mark Driscoll who "screams" at men with "How Dare You!" sermons. Sermons from men like Perry Noble who tell men to "grow some" and ask women out! Information that is high on advice, but has little application. Advice telling men that they all have inappropriate content problems, they are no good, depraved, and need to listen to the "wise counsel of their wives"

Only ten bux a month! Step right up! The webpage looks like its was designed by an old man using a "build your own webpage" he got for free on Google. Boy, these guys were just so proud of themselves...because if men "out in the world" and in "church" can get help from "real men" by a webpage they will change their lives tomorrow, come to church, repent, and suddenly be the "Godly man, that God wants him to be"

Man, it was a laugh.......wow.....men just need to go on this invention called "the Internet" and get help, find this webpage, pay 10 bux a month to be shamed, belittled, yelled at, and told what they are not doing. Brilliant! If ONLY someone had thought of this sooner!

My take on helping men today? Convincing them that they need a Savior? Bringing them into church? Growing them to conform daily to God's Son?????????

Want my take? TB (too bad) you're gonna hear it

No more "workshops" no more "bold directions and bold plans" no more "tools" and "resources" to equip them. No more angry sermons made to tickle the women's ears and shame the men that are in church. No more stories that if "we just made the praise music loud, with hard rock with smoke machines and lights the men will relate to this"

NO. NO! Ten thousand times NO!

Men today who are out there in the world are HURTING. They want questions answered about Christ's love, forgiveness, and regeneration. They want to see men who not only have heard the Word, but live it. They want prayer, comforting words, and hope about their own lives. Answers to TOUGH questions.....why did I lose my job? why did she leave / divorce me? why didn't my father love me? why can't I seem to get ahead? i am so sick and tired of being sick and tired.......and nothing calms, helps, comforts, or answers. why did god allow this? my kids are driving me crazy, every-time i lead, my wife undermines my authority with them. what good can god do for me when i am unforgiveable?

These questions are HARD to answer. HARD to work through. It will take TIME and WORK by a church community to do this, and fix this. Something MOST Christians inside the walls DON'T want to do. It's easier to say "we'll give you the tools" and the overused word of "leadership" (I have heard this word used more inside the church than outside). The church has enough "leaders" so to speak. It needs followers now. Followers of Jesus Christ...not followers of a 'bold' pastor. Men inside the church are going to have to face the fact they THEY are going to have to do this. Christ called YOU.

These workshops, seminars, tools, and equipping "classes" look great on paper, but they do little.

The best example is Christ. He did it with no medium except Truth. Pastors say today "Jesus would have loved an iphone and Facebook"

No, he wouldn't. It really wouldn't serve a purpose to him. His purpose WAS relational. It wasn't "I'll post a tweet and all will be well"

and pastors who say this by the way forget the FACT that many churches are downright poor (my church....most people could not afford an iphone, and have to use the computer at the library).

It's easy to puff yourself up today as man in church that has nice teeth, a cute wife, good hair and a good speaking voice to tell "the rest of us" what we are not, and bemoan that "men are not stepping up"

Their message is never looked at. Their outlook is never questioned. Their position is deemed beyond reproach.

I agree men need to be men. I agree more needs to be done.....but what WE are purporting and doing isn't working, and it's time to really take it back and see, not just read....but really, really focus on how Jesus ministered. His message is for all time........but hey, I'm just a single Christian man with no credentials.......no seminary training. No "bold" ministry of living in Timbuktu for two years (yet these same people who do ministry like this ignore the shanty trailer park across their town near the railroad tracks and toxic-waste dump). I don't have the looks that are deemed "cute" "hot" by a cultural standard.......so my opinion means nothing in the church today concerning these matters.........

In 1969,this following song was a number 2 hit song on the "soul(music) station in San Francisco. This song is about a step father. My real and biological father had these same values and attributes as the father in this song had. Yes, my father was hard on me, not affectionate towards me, and never told me, "I love you". But I thank and have thanked GOD for my father, a Deacon at the church that I grew up in,as he made me the successful(in most things) man that I am today.
Here is the song,"Color Him Father."

There's a man at my house he's so big and strong
He goes to work each day, stays all day long
He comes home each night looking tired and beat
He sits down at the dinner table and has a bite to eat
Never a frown always a smile
When he says to me how's my child
I've been studying hard all day in school
Tryin' to understand the golden rule

Think I'll color this man father
I think I'll color him love
Said I'm gonna color him father
I think I'll color the man love, yes I will

He says education is the thing if you wanna compete
Because without it son, life ain't very sweet
I love this man I don't know why
Except I'll need his strength till the day that I die
My mother loves him and I can tell
By the way she looks at him when he holds my little sister Nell
I heard her say just the other day
That if it hadn't been for him she wouldn't have found her way
My real old man he got killed in the war
And she knows she and seven kids couldn't of got very far
She said she thought that she could never love again
And then there he stood with that big wide grin
He married my mother and he took us in
And now we belong to the man with that big wide grin

Think I'll color this man father
I think I'll color him love
Said I'm gonna color him father

miss-a · Jul 4, 2015

Gen X said:
eh......celebrity pastors......the clips, each pastor is treated like a rock star........didn't watch the rest

Confused. There were no celebrity pastors in the link I intended to send. I'll check it out and try to get you the right one. It's supposed to be a pastor named Bob Hamp, who is not well known, largely and sadly because he speaks much truth that goes against many of the company lines.

Okay, I checked it out. Try these links. No celebs, just Bob:
Vid 1:
http://gatewaypeople.com/ministries...lasses/session/2011/03/04/1-a-kingdom-parable

vid 2: http://gatewaypeople.com/ministries...classes/session/2009/04/29/2-levels-of-change

vid 3: http://gatewaypeople.com/ministries...l-classes/session/2009/01/12/3-kingdom-of-god

vid 4; http://gatewaypeople.com/ministries...onal-classes/session/2008/11/03/4-hearing-god

vid 5; http://gatewaypeople.com/ministries...sses/session/2008/10/13/5-life-in-the-kingdom

Now, if you watch these and see the same-old-same-old, then I have to respectfully say you're seeing what is not there, blinded by your past experiences that need to be healed. This guy is waaaay off the beaten path in a good way. I'm surprised the church he was at when these were recorded would even post the videos, because they go so against the grain of what most preach, stuff like, "But what if sin isn't what God is talking to you about most of the time?" So anyway, I hope you'll give them a try. I'm not sure what you clicked on the last time, perhaps other pastors from that church. But this guy is worth the watch.

Prayers,
a

Search

Search

Another "men's" breakfast, yet another "bold" approach (sigh)

Gen X

Active Member

More options

dayhiker

Mature veteran

More options

Gen X

Active Member

More options

dayhiker

Mature veteran

More options

Gen X

Active Member

More options

blackribbon

Not a newbie

More options

miss-a

Newbie

More options

Gen X

Active Member

More options

exitstageright

Newbie

More options

miss-a

Newbie

More options

Similar threads