Peter was not the first Pope. How did we get this anyhow

PaladinValer

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People give Constantine more credit than he deserves. I honestly believe the guy probably wasn't a confessing Christian until his last breath, if even at all. He also followed typical Roman traditions, but seeing as he can't claim to be a god, he picked the next best thing. he legalized and promoted Christianity, but I don't think he was tearing down pagan temples or anything.

Well, the thing is...

Constantine was a Christian. Even though many point out he was not baptized until his deathbed, they forget (or don't know) that such practice was very common (the issues surrounding reconciliation after sins was still being hashed out, particularly with the Dontanists), as the more extreme (and unorthodox) position was that any sin after baptism was permanent, even damning, and that did cause many to pause even if they were orthodox.

Constantine was also a very wise ruler. He needed to not lose the strong Pagan base that also was still very popular in the Roman Empire. Alienating them could get him dethrowned and violently so. He didn't outlaw the various Pagan religions, and he was a patron to them, but not with any religious reason, but reason of keeping a good state.

What many don't realize is that Constantine went back on Nicaea I and actually exhiled Athanasius and brought Arius back from exhile. And because of this and similar actions, Christianity for the next 50 odd years once again was rocked by fighting despite the Council. It wasn't until 381ce with the Second Ecumenical Council, the first of three that would be help in Constantinople, that the situation was finally and permanently resolved in favor of the orthodox over the various heretics. Still, Christianity does owe a huge debt of gratitude to Constantine, for history would have definitely been much different otherwise, and likely not in Christianity's favor.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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Well, the thing is...

Constantine was a Christian. Even though many point out he was not baptized until his deathbed, they forget (or don't know) that such practice was very common (the issues surrounding reconciliation after sins was still being hashed out, particularly with the Dontanists), as the more extreme (and unorthodox) position was that any sin after baptism was permanent, even damning, and that did cause many to pause even if they were orthodox.

Constantine was also a very wise ruler. He needed to not lose the strong Pagan base that also was still very popular in the Roman Empire. Alienating them could get him dethrowned and violently so. He didn't outlaw the various Pagan religions, and he was a patron to them, but not with any religious reason, but reason of keeping a good state.

What many don't realize is that Constantine went back on Nicaea I and actually exhiled Athanasius and brought Arius back from exhile. And because of this and similar actions, Christianity for the next 50 odd years once again was rocked by fighting despite the Council. It wasn't until 381ce with the Second Ecumenical Council, the first of three that would be help in Constantinople, that the situation was finally and permanently resolved in favor of the orthodox over the various heretics. Still, Christianity does owe a huge debt of gratitude to Constantine, for history would have definitely been much different otherwise, and likely not in Christianity's favor.

Oh no doubt. Politics play a big deal, which is why he was a Christian ruler and wanted unity with the churches, but I don't think he could ever claim the title of being anything other than a Roman Emperor who was Christian.
 
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bottledwater

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People give Constantine more credit than he deserves. I honestly believe the guy probably wasn't a confessing Christian until his last breath, if even at all. He also followed typical Roman traditions, but seeing as he can't claim to be a god, he picked the next best thing. he legalized and promoted Christianity, but I don't think he was tearing down pagan temples or anything.


Just so you know, Constantine put an end to christian persecution. So he has my vote..... I like to refer to him as Constantine the Great, as he is commonly called. But, I call him this for that reason alone.
He did alot for the Christians by allowing them to form churches, and worship how they saw fit. In fact, it may be because of Constantine that the christian faith survived that era, and a few to follow. It was definitely what allowed the christian church to flourish.
I am not sure where you are getting that he wanted to claim to be God.
you mentioned that you don't think he was a christian until his dying breath. Just look at the thief on the cross.

God Bless you
 
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PaladinValer

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Oh no doubt. Politics play a big deal, which is why he was a Christian ruler and wanted unity with the churches, but I don't think he could ever claim the title of being anything other than a Roman Emperor who was Christian.

Agreed. Well put :)
 
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bottledwater

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Well, the thing is...

Constantine was a Christian. Even though many point out he was not baptized until his deathbed, they forget (or don't know) that such practice was very common (the issues surrounding reconciliation after sins was still being hashed out, particularly with the Dontanists), as the more extreme (and unorthodox) position was that any sin after baptism was permanent, even damning, and that did cause many to pause even if they were orthodox.

Constantine was also a very wise ruler. He needed to not lose the strong Pagan base that also was still very popular in the Roman Empire. Alienating them could get him dethrowned and violently so. He didn't outlaw the various Pagan religions, and he was a patron to them, but not with any religious reason, but reason of keeping a good state.

What many don't realize is that Constantine went back on Nicaea I and actually exhiled Athanasius and brought Arius back from exhile. And because of this and similar actions, Christianity for the next 50 odd years once again was rocked by fighting despite the Council. It wasn't until 381ce with the Second Ecumenical Council, the first of three that would be help in Constantinople, that the situation was finally and permanently resolved in favor of the orthodox over the various heretics. Still, Christianity does owe a huge debt of gratitude to Constantine, for history would have definitely been much different otherwise, and likely not in Christianity's favor.


Just wanna say that even if he wasn't baptized he would still be saved. Just look at the thief on the cross.
The only baptism that is required is the baptism with fire, the Holy Spirit. This is the baptism that changes a man, because it makes him a new creation.
Just like the earth when it was flooded. It returned to the same state again. But, when the earth is burnt up in the end and made new again, it will be be and remain free from corruption forever..
I don't know why I used that last part there. But, it worked so I am going with it.
 
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PaladinValer

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Just wanna say that even if he wasn't baptized he would still be saved.

That isn't the historic view.

Just look at the thief on the cross.

Poor argument since he passed before Jesus' resurrection, and since St. Paul teaches we are baptized in His Resurrection, until he was, baptism would have not had its meaning.

The only baptism that is required is the baptism with fire, the Holy Spirit. This is the baptism that changes a man, because it makes him a new creation.
Just like the earth when it was flooded. It returned to the same state again. But, when the earth is burnt up in the end and made new again, it will be be and remain free from corruption forever..
I don't know why I used that last part there. But, it worked so I am going with it.

I choose to believe as is found in Holy Scripture as always interpreted: that Holy Baptism saves, regenerates, and is generally necessary for salvation. I have no desire to believe in ideas that are proven foreign to Christianity until very, very late.
 
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bottledwater

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That isn't the historic view.



Poor argument since he passed before Jesus' resurrection, and since St. Paul teaches we are baptized in His Resurrection, until he was, baptism would have not had its meaning.



I choose to believe as is found in Holy Scripture as always interpreted: that Holy Baptism saves, regenerates, and is generally necessary for salvation. I have no desire to believe in ideas that are proven foreign to Christianity until very, very late.


Actually Jesus died before the thief. That is why Jesus' legs were not broken, and the thief's were. They broke them so that they could take them down from the cross because it was passover.
Jesus also told the thief that today you will be with me in paradise.
He wasn't talking about a restaurant or something. he was saying that they would both be in paradise together.
Water baptism is just an outward expression of faith. It does not regenerate your spirit. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is what regenerates your spirit.
Now that Jesus has been raised from the dead, all of those that were in the Bosom of Abraham(the good side of paradise) are now in heaven, and we know this because it says in scripture that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.Jesus now sits at the right hand of All Power.

How is it that you don't know this basic teaching that I learned in Sunday School when I was like 4.

Read about the thief, and then go on to read about how Jesus led captives captive, when He ascended on High, and gave gifts to men.
These were those in the good side of Hades, which is also referred to as paradise or the Bosom of Abraham. They are now in Heaven.
That thief, he is in Heaven with Jesus.

If you still believe that getting baptized in water is required for salvation, then Jesus is a liar, because He said that the gift of eternal life is free, and there is nothing anyone can do to attain it. This would include being baptized with water.
Again, He was referring to baptism with Fire. The Fire is the Holy Spirit.
Even Paul says that it is the gift of God's grace.
I cannot believe that Jesus is the liar, because scripture and the testimony of those that followed Him, back Him up, and that only leaves you.

Sorry Charlie, maybe next time.. lol.. I was thinking about that Starkist Tuna commercial there. lol.lol.. Charlie the tuna. You all know... He thought is was something that he could do also.. But, he soon found out that it was what was inside that counted, and not anything else.
No matter what he tried, he wasn't Starkist Tuna.
 
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PaladinValer

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Actually Jesus died before the thief. That is why Jesus' legs were not broken, and the thief's were. They broke them so that they could take them down from the cross because it was passover.

Straw Man reply. I said, and I quote, "Poor argument since he passed before Jesus' resurrection, and since St. Paul teaches we are baptized in His Resurrection, until he was, baptism would have not had its meaning."

Being passed before the resurrection is different from passing before Jesus passed.

Jesus also told the thief that today you will be with me in paradise.

Indeed, and that's not heaven; that's another name for Abraham's Bosom, which is the "good half" of sheol, called "hades" in Greek, where the souls given particular judgment as righteous go upon passing away biologically.

Jesus didn't go to heaven; He went to the abode of the dead.

He wasn't talking about a restaurant or something. he was saying that they would both be in paradise together.

Since your position falsely and wrongly equivocates sheol with heaven, as shown, and offers a Straw Man, it is wrong.

Water baptism is just an outward expression of faith. It does not regenerate your spirit. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is what regenerates your spirit.

Sorry; that's not the historic, traditional interpretation of Holy Scripture, nor is it Scriptural. I ask for primary evidence for your interpretation in the historical record before the end of the Conciliar Era. If it cannot be found, and if my position is, then we know which is authentically historic Christian doctrine and which is not.

Now that Jesus has been raised from the dead, all of those that were in the Bosom of Abraham(the good side of paradise) are now in heaven, and we know this because it says in scripture that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.Jesus now sits at the right hand of All Power.

Paradise is the Bosom of Abraham. Sheol is where it is found. Sheol is called "hades" in Greek. The Septuagint, the great translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew and Aramaic into Greek by the Jews in the centuries before the Nativity and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ, proves this.

How is it that you don't know this basic teaching that I learned in Sunday School when I was like 4.

I know more because I have a degree in history and have copies of the primary resources ion my personal library. Al that your posts offer is Straw Men arguments, False Equivocations, and Ad Hominem attacks, all of which prove nothing.

The rest of the post is merely a repeat. Address my argument, not make up Straw Men.
 
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bottledwater

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Straw Man reply. I said, and I quote, "Poor argument since he passed before Jesus' resurrection, and since St. Paul teaches we are baptized in His Resurrection, until he was, baptism would have not had its meaning."

Being passed before the resurrection is different from passing before Jesus passed.



Indeed, and that's not heaven; that's another name for Abraham's Bosom, which is the "good half" of sheol, called "hades" in Greek, where the souls given particular judgment as righteous go upon passing away biologically.

Jesus didn't go to heaven; He went to the abode of the dead.



Since your position falsely and wrongly equivocates sheol with heaven, as shown, and offers a Straw Man, it is wrong.



Sorry; that's not the historic, traditional interpretation of Holy Scripture, nor is it Scriptural. I ask for primary evidence for your interpretation in the historical record before the end of the Conciliar Era. If it cannot be found, and if my position is, then we know which is authentically historic Christian doctrine and which is not.



Paradise is the Bosom of Abraham. Sheol is where it is found. Sheol is called "hades" in Greek. The Septuagint, the great translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew and Aramaic into Greek by the Jews in the centuries before the Nativity and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ, proves this.



I know more because I have a degree in history and have copies of the primary resources ion my personal library. Al that your posts offer is Straw Men arguments, False Equivocations, and Ad Hominem attacks, all of which prove nothing.

The rest of the post is merely a repeat. Address my argument, not make up Straw Men.



Jesus, when He died on the cross went to Hades, and then later quite some time after His resurrection. He ascended to Heaven.

Maybe just read it for yourself, as I really don't have the patience to teach this to you.

I see that you refuse to admit that you are wrong. So I am saying that seeings that you do not believe me. Then go and read the bible.

I 'm not talking to you anymore about this topic.
So let's just end this on the note that I am right, and you need to go and test what I have said in light of scripture.
Although I am gritting my teeth here, I do love you, and honestly hope that you will do just that.
God Bless you Brother.

Again I just wanna say that the thief did not get baptized by water, and yet Jesus said that he would be in paradise with Jesus on that very day.
I am not french Canadian. I am English speaking only. How is it you don't get this?
 
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Open Heart

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Constantine the Great, was the first one to claim himself to be the Vicar of Christ, and that is what all of the Popes called themselves.
OMGosh the Constantine myths just never end.
 
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bbbbbbb

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pathfinder777

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I copied this to explain the Peter as the first Pope lie. Hope this sheds a little light on the topic for each of you.

Constantine the Great, was the first one to claim himself to be the Vicar of Christ, and that is what all of the Popes called themselves.

By the way, I recommend Got Questions for any of you that don't already know about it. They also have an app for Android. Not sure about Iphone.


Question: "Was Saint Peter the first pope?"

Answer:
The Roman Catholic Church sees Peter as the first pope upon whom God had chosen to build His church (Matthew 16:18). It holds that he had authority (primacy) over the other apostles. The Roman Catholic Church maintains that sometime after the recorded events of the book of Acts, the Apostle Peter became the first bishop of Rome, and that the Roman bishop was accepted by the early church as the central authority among all of the churches. It teaches that God passed Peter’s apostolic authority to those who later filled his seat as bishop of Rome. This teaching that God passed on Peter’s apostolic authority to the subsequent bishops is referred to as “apostolic succession.”
<Staff Edit>
I recommend you visit the called to communion website for an accurate Catholic position on this topic. Recently a Protestant's argument against the Catholic position was posted with a very insightful exchange covering all of the relevant texts relating to your post.
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/20...he-catholic-faith-a-reply-to-brandon-addison/
 
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Open Heart

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Evidently the powers to be, as far as this site goes, are very much Catholic, or if they are not, Then they like to appear that they are, so that they can get more sponsors.
Or maybe they are protestants who simply enforce the rules equally.
 
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bottledwater

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I recommend you visit the called to communion website for an accurate Catholic position on this topic. Recently a Protestant's argument against the Catholic position was posted with a very insightful exchange covering all of the relevant texts relating to your post.
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/20...he-catholic-faith-a-reply-to-brandon-addison/


i wouldn't dirty myself by reading anything from that sight. I bel
Or maybe they are protestants who simply enforce the rules equally.


You may have a point there..
 
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Rick Otto

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That isn't the historic view.



Poor argument since he passed before Jesus' resurrection, and since St. Paul teaches we are baptized in His Resurrection, until he was, baptism would have not had its meaning.



I choose to believe as is found in Holy Scripture as always interpreted: that Holy Baptism saves, regenerates, and is generally necessary for salvation. I have no desire to believe in ideas that are proven foreign to Christianity until very, very late.
I choose to believe in the interpretations that are less anti-thetical by definition to the gospel than the excesses wrought early by dominate ecclesiastics.
 
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Rick Otto

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Jesus, when He died on the cross went to Hades, and then later quite some time after His resurrection. He ascended to Heaven.

Maybe just read it for yourself, as I really don't have the patience to teach this to you.

I see that you refuse to admit that you are wrong. So I am saying that seeings that you do not believe me. Then go and read the bible.

I 'm not talking to you anymore about this topic.
So let's just end this on the note that I am right, and you need to go and test what I have said in light of scripture.
Although I am gritting my teeth here, I do love you, and honestly hope that you will do just that.
God Bless you Brother.

Again I just wanna say that the thief did not get baptized by water, and yet Jesus said that he would be in paradise with Jesus on that very day.
I am not french Canadian. I am English speaking only. How is it you don't get this?
When one has worked hard and long to acquire establishment credentials enough to teach establishment doctrine, a certain invincibility one could say, is achieved.
 
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