Buddhism: Neither Theistic nor Atheistic

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟22,581.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As the father of two small children, I know tempter tantrums. If a God routinely demands the slaughter of entire villages, including infant children, and then sends you to eternal conscious torment in hell for believing in the wrong religion, that's a temper tantrum. I already have enough spoiled brats in my life. (I kid, I kid. I joke, I joke.)
 
Upvote 0

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟186,371.00
Marital Status
Private
As the father of two small children, I know tempter tantrums. If a God routinely demands the slaughter of entire villages, including infant children, and then sends you to eternal conscious torment in hell for believing in the wrong religion, that's a temper tantrum. I already have enough spoiled brats in my life. (I kid, I kid. I joke, I joke.)
Do you teach your children to rely on you for everything, or are you teaching them to grow up to be self-reliant? :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gord44

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,352
658
✟27,716.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am very, very averse to the practice of "dumbing down", or - to describe it in more generous terms, "rendering things more accessible to the masses". So much is irretrievably lost in the process, so much oversimplification, misunderstanding and downright stupidity enters the picture.

I agree. I see that in Pureland and in orthodox Christianity. On the other hand, since I see the human need for spirituality by many, is not something a bit 'simplified' needed by those who don't have the spiritual aptitude or 'desire to seek'? As you said, so much is lost when that happens, and more so the unity of spirituality is clumsily replaced by uniformity, but I don't think much can be done about it. Religions like these become incredibly powerful by the sheer number of adherents giving them energy.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
Well, let's use another analogy:

imagine there was a dancing master who instructed others in the art of his special steps. The only way to learn this dance of his is to practice it.
Now, if you let others stand at the side and clap their hands in time to the music, they might feel included, but they won't learn the dance. Even if they point to the master and say: "But HE's doing it so perfectly! No need for me to do the same, he's doing it in my place."
 
Upvote 0

gord44

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,352
658
✟27,716.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hehe. Good analogy! Totally agree. Problem is, people love to watch the dancing master dance. A huge crowd will form to see it. These crowds will push the people trying to learn the dance away with their sheer numbers and eventually look down on anyone that even tries to learn the dance because as you said, the master is doing it so perfectly. Then they will hear of other dancing masters and will become upset, since there can only be one true dancing master!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jane_the_Bane
Upvote 0

ananda

Early Buddhist
May 6, 2011
14,757
2,123
Soujourner on Earth
✟186,371.00
Marital Status
Private
I agree. I see that in Pureland and in orthodox Christianity. On the other hand, since I see the human need for spirituality by many, is not something a bit 'simplified' needed by those who don't have the spiritual aptitude or 'desire to seek'? As you said, so much is lost when that happens, and more so the unity of spirituality is clumsily replaced by uniformity, but I don't think much can be done about it. Religions like these become incredibly powerful by the sheer number of adherents giving them energy.
I see many negatives associated with simplification of spiritual paths. Rather than encouraging man to walk the (necessarily hard) path of self-development, self-improvement, and ascension, simplication instead ...

1. Encourages the common man to descend into an easier, more regressive, helpless, and unthinking state where he is no longer responsible for his actions or behavior, and
2. Shifts the responsibilities to the work of others (intercessors, "anointed" clergy, saviors, etc.); as a result,
3. It encourages the development of earthly hierarchies, and these hierarchies (state, church, etc.) progressively grow in power over the "helpless," common man; the latter is in practicality reduced to an animal to be (and can be) controlled.

IMO one path is hard and strait, and encourages elevation; the other is easy and wide, and encourages deprecation.
 
Upvote 0

MehGuy

A member of the less neotenous sex..
Site Supporter
Jul 23, 2007
55,917
10,826
Minnesota
✟1,163,932.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I agree. I see that in Pureland and in orthodox Christianity. On the other hand, since I see the human need for spirituality by many, is not something a bit 'simplified' needed by those who don't have the spiritual aptitude or 'desire to seek'? As you said, so much is lost when that happens, and more so the unity of spirituality is clumsily replaced by uniformity, but I don't think much can be done about it. Religions like these become incredibly powerful by the sheer number of adherents giving them energy.

Not to mention some people over complicate their spiritually. Most likely to give the appearance of my depth then there actually is.
 
Upvote 0

sparow

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2014
2,552
428
85
✟488,858.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
It is an alternative, and possibly a mutually exclusive one, but that doesn't make something an antithesis.


eudaimonia,

Mark


I don’t see anything wrong with antithesis unless it doesn’t convey a strong enough message about this:

“What if I told you that the universe has always existed in some form, so there's no need for a Creator, and that there's a natural law of cause and effect, so there's no need for a Judge who rewards and punishes?”
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

sparow

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2014
2,552
428
85
✟488,858.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Hell is not a valid Biblical concept; its inclusion in Bible translations reflects only the views of the translators/interpreters. In every case that hell appears in scripture a correct translation should be one of the following; grave, tomb, a specific rubbish tip, there are five in all being places where bodies are disposed of. The general concepts of hell come from Greek mythology; the word “hell” is an old English hole specifically 6 feet deep used for storing potatoes as well as graves. Hells are good when one does not have a refrigerator, they can keep meet and butter cold.


The Judeo-Christian paradigm is God divides mankind into two groups, the first resurrection to eternal life and the second resurrection to the second death from where they can never be resurrected again; primarily the second resurrection is Gog and his armies; but includes anyone who hasn’t made it into the New Jerusalem.
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I see many negatives associated with simplification of spiritual paths.
I would say that part of the deception involved in focusing on spiritual paths tends to happen when we think it's all about what the path is for mankind himself, as opposed to seeing the path of life as it concerns how we relate to that in nature..

11659502_425399644298893_3041202541557430379_n.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jane_the_Bane
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟22,581.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The most famous parable of the Buddha is that of the burning house. This parable is often used to convey the doctrine of expedient means. Yet why does the Buddha offer expedient means for the enlightenment of all beings? It's because the father in the parable is the Buddha himself, who loves us just as a true father should. It might seem like a concept foreign to Buddhism to think of the Buddha as our father, but he is our loving parent in a real spiritual sense:

The Parable of the Burning House appears in Chapter 3 ( the Hiyu Chapter ) of the Lotus Sutra. In this parable a scenario is presented where children are in great danger in a house on fire:

'One day, a fire broke out in the house of a wealthy man who had many children. The wealthy man shouted at his children inside the burning house to flee. But, the children were absorbed in their games and did not heed his warning, though the house was being consumed by flames.'
'Then, the wealthy man devised a practical way to lure the children from the burning house. Knowing that the children were fond of interesting playthings, he called out to them, "Listen! Outside the gate are the carts that you have always wanted: carts pulled by goats, carts pulled by deer, and carts pulled by oxen. Why don't you come out and play with them?" The wealthy man knew that these things would be irresistible to his children.'
'The children, eager to play with these new toys rushed out of the house but, instead of the carts that he had promised, the father gave them a cart much better than any he has described - a cart draped with precious stones and pulled by white bullocks. The important thing being that the children were saved from the dangers of the house on fire.'

In this parable the father, of course, is the Buddha and sentient beings are the children trapped in the burning house. The Burning House represents the world burning with the fires of old age, sickness and death. The teachings of the Buddha are like the father getting the boys to leave their pleasures for a greater pleasure, Nirvana.
http://jodomon.blogspot.com/2009/01/senchakushu-chapter-1-outline.html

The most important point of this parable is that the Buddha loves us unconditionally, and that he has compassion for us because of, not just despite, our faults and ignorance.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟22,581.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's clear from the evidence that Pure Land Buddhism did not orginate from Christian influence:

The first known epigraphic evidence for Amitābha is the bottom part of a statue found in Govindnagar, Pakistan and now located at the Mathura Museum. The statue is dated to "the 28th year of the reign of Huviṣka" (i.e., sometime in the latter half of the 2nd century CE, during the period of the Kuṣāṇa Empire), and was apparently dedicated to "Amitābha Buddha" by a family of merchants.[15]

The first known sutra mentioning Amitābha is the translation into Chinese of the Pratyutpanna Sūtra by the Kuṣāṇa monk Lokakṣema around 180 CE. This work is said to be at the origin of Pure Land practice in China.

The appearance of such literature and sculptural remains at the end of the 2nd century suggests that the doctrine of Amitābha probably developed during the 1st and 2nd centuries CE. Furthermore, there are sculptures of Amitabha in Dhyani Mudras as well as bronzes of Amitabha in Abhaya Mudra from the Gandhara era of the 1st century CE suggesting the popularity of Amitabha during that time. One of the last prayer busts of Amitabha can be found in the trademark black stone of the Pala Empire which was the last Buddhist empire of India and lost its influence in the 12th century due to Islamic invasions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amitābha#Vajray.C4.81na_Buddhism
 
Upvote 0

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟22,581.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Pat Robertson tells a caller with Buddhist co-workers to quit her job because Buddhism is a disease by which she will be infected if she stays. If any religion is a disease to our society, based on its extremism, intolerance, brainwashing, and the amount of people that it hurts, it's right-wing fundamentalist Christianity. No rational person will dispute that. American fundamentalists represent a minority of the world's Christians, and yet they insist that their way is the only way and that only they have rights.

 
  • Like
Reactions: smaneck
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I see many negatives associated with simplification of spiritual paths.
One thing that I think makes a difference with simplification of spiritual paths is that sometimes links between paths are not understood and thus others do not know how radically different roads can be depending on the path you're on (i.e. claiming "Budda said the SAME THINGS Christ did, therefore Buddha is superior" even when failing to recognize the religious context Buddha lived in vs. the context Christ did and the ways they were...and are radically different).

And part of understanding how to not simplify a path comes from realizing where the paths began. I find it fascinating studying the historical/academic background of things and seeing the many ways Siddhartha could have been influenced by Abraham, Solomon and Esther (which goes along with what was said when it comes to the dynamic of where Christianity succeeding Judaism with the Followers of the Way carried on with a tradition that not only influenced Buddhism but which Buddhism learned from before the rise of Christianity - as noted earlier here and here). More can be discussed in excellent works such as Buddha: A Prophet From the East
By Sri G. Ananda.
Something that stood out to me, as it concerns the ways Buddhism had a Jewish element to it which influenced is from one of the best books on comparative religions of Buddhism and Christianity, known as Buddha and Jesus:: Could Solomon Be the Missing Link?





For some quick comments on reviews on the work:



Despite many years in publishing I have never seen an irenic comparison between Buddha and Jesus. Richard Sherman provides the most exhaustive, even-handed comparison I can imagine reading, with an abundance of footnotes revealing thorough research. For me the most fascinating research results are on the possibility that Buddha gained many of his insights from Hebrew scriptures, especially the Solomonic writings, brought hundreds of years before Buddha's birth by immigrants from Israel to the valley where Buddha grew up. While not based on archaelogical evidence gained where Buddha grew up and lived, the parallels between his and Solomon's teaching are truly remarkable. On the whole, Buddha and Christ is fascinating reading.

E. Sherman has written a very interesting book. The research that went into this book is mind-boggling. In the end, there is enough information to contrast Jesus with Buddha and answer one big question, "Could Solomon be the missing link to why Buddha thought the way he did?" The timeline fits. Opportunities were possible. Solomon could have been the missing link. Buddha had access to Solomon's sayings (they preceded him by 400 years)and sought after enlightenment. Both Christianity and Buddhism have many teaching points in common. And yet they are not the same. 'Buddha & Jesus' is a fascinating read and allows the reader to make his/her own conclusion as to which path is right. Buddhism and Christianity do not lead to the same destination. After digging into this book, I am convinced Sherman has exposed details I would not have thought to investigate until now. For those who are curious about the underpinnings of either Buddhism or Christianity, this book will establish historical content and answer deep and important questions related to personal faith.

For some places that do review on the book, one can go here to the following:





And as noted (from Did Solomon Influence Buddha? | East West Insights ):





[Excerpt from Chapter Fourteen of
Buddha and Jesus: Could Solomon Be the Missing Link?]

There are many examples of the words of Buddha (and of Christ) echoing the writings of Solomon. Often, the similarities are so striking that one can only wonder whether Solomon’s influence was direct. Here are two more examples:

Generosity
Solomon (950 B.C.)


“One man gives freely, yet gains even more; another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty. A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed.”

“He who pursues righteousness and love finds life, righteousness and honor.”[ii]


Buddha (525 B.C.)

“Hard it is to understand: By giving away our food, we get more strength; by bestowing clothingon others, we gain more beauty.”[iii]

“With generosity and kind words, always doing to others what is good, he treats all people as the same. His compassion for the world is like the hub that makes the wheel go round.”[iv]



Christ (A.D. 30)

“Give and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”[v]

“. . . you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”[vi]



Buddha’s words here carry the same essence as Solomon’s two verses, as do the words of Jesus. Again, there is no reason to posit a direct relationship between Buddha and Jesus, because Jesus clearly was echoing Solomon, and Buddha may well have been echoing Solomon as well.

Further, the following excerpt from Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount is reminiscent of Solomon’s teachings on generosity:

Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Fatherfeeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, “What shall we eat?” or “What shall we drink?” or “What shall we wear?” For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.[vii]

In this passage Jesus even mentions Solomon by name, providing further evidence that he had Solomon in mind as he was speaking. Solomon, too, taught the great importance of pursuing, or “treasuring,” righteousness and love.



Practice Charity
Solomon (950 B.C.)


“There is one who makes himself rich, yet has nothing; and one who makes himself poor, yet has great riches.”[viii]

“Cast your bread upon the waters, for you will find it after many days. Give a serving to seven, and also to eight, for you do not know what evil will be on the earth.”[ix]

“Honor the Lord with your wealth, with the first fruits of all your crops; then your barns will be filled to overflowing, and your vats will brim over with new wine.”[x]



Buddha (525 B.C.)

“The greatest reward in the world is to provide for others.”[xi]

“Because he gives a gift at the right time, wherever the result of that gift ripens he becomes rich, affluent, and wealthy, and benefits come to him at the right time, in abundant measure.”[xii]



Christ (A.D. 30)

“. . . you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”[xiii]

“Give and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”[xiv]



Buddha’s quote draws an analogy from farming—the planting of trees that will “ripen” to provide shade, flowers, and fruit. His imagery is similar to Solomon’s third quotation, which refers to fruits, crops, and vats of wine. As usual, Buddha leaves out any reference to God, implying that the universe (via karma) will naturally bring blessings to those who are generous toward the needy. In contrast, Solomon and Jesus saw a personal God as the one who provided blessings to those who were charitable toward others in need.

Proverbs 11:24–25 (NIV).

[ii] Proverbs 21:21 (NIV).

[iii] Nitin Kumar “Buddha and Christ: Two Gods on the Path to Humanity,” Exotic India, November 2003, www.exoticindiaart.com/article/buddhaandchrist, retrieved February 3, 2011.

[iv] Richard Hooper, Jesus Buddha Krishna Lao Tzu: The Parallel Sayings (Sedona, AZ: Sanctuary Publications, 2007), 117.

[v] Luke 6:38 (NIV).

[vi] Acts 20:35b (NASB).

[vii] Matthew 6:25–34 (NIV) (emphasis added).

[viii] Proverbs 13:7 (NKJV).

[ix] Ecclesiastes 11:1–2 (NKJV).

[x] Proverbs 3:9–10 (NIV).

[xi] Hooper, Jesus Buddha Krishna Lao Tzu, 120.

[xii] Bhikkhu Bodhi, ed. In the Buddha’s Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon (Somerville, MA: Wisdom Publications, 2005), 170–171.

[xiii] Acts 20:35b (NASB).

[xiv] Luke 6:38 (NIV).


And for another perspective, as said best here:

Buddha: The Solomon of India

Was Solomon a significant source of Buddha's inspiration? Consider these facts:

  • Solomon lived 400 years earlier. The Bible states, "Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon's wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom."1 India was almost certainly one of those nations.
  • Buddha's first book, a collection of 423 proverbs, is filled with hundreds of proverbs quite similar to Solomon's.
  • Virtually all of the key emphases of Buddha were prominent themes in Solomon's writings, including peace, tolerance, the illusory nature of this world, pervasive suffering in this world, meditation, overcoming ignorance with wisdom and understanding, enlightenment, monks (priests) and secular ethics.
  • Every one of the 12 key elements of Buddhism (the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Noble Path) was also expressed, in great detail, in Solomon's writings. The main exceptions to this are due to specific beliefs of Hinduism (reincarnation and vegetarianism) that clearly differ from Judaism.
  • Solomon's ways of the "righteous" coincide with Buddha's "right" ways of thinking and acting.
  • An ideal that Solomon fulfilled early in his reign is clearly described in one of Buddha's proverbs, even though that ideal was highly undesirable, according to Buddha's own teachings.
  • The core and bulk of Buddhism can be nearly replicated by following a four step process: a) begin with Solomon's writings, excluding references to God, b) assume reincarnation, c) renounce the world and d) retreat within to insulate yourself from suffering.
  • Today a third of all Western Buddhist leaders have a Jewish background.
  • Buddha's Five Moral Precepts closely parallel the last five of the Ten Commandments of Moses, a prominent foundation of Judaism.

hrline.gif

The Ten Commandments2 The Five Moral Precepts
of Buddha
3
hrline.gif

6. You shall not murder. 1. Do not kill.
7. You shall not commit adultery. 3. Do not indulge in sexual misconduct.
8. You shall not steal. 2. Do not steal.
9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 4. Do not make false speech.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. 5. Do not take intoxicants.
hrline.gif


 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Yoder777

Senior Veteran
Nov 11, 2010
4,782
458
✟22,581.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Dharma_Paths

I regard Hindus and Buddhists as brothers or cousins in faith. Doctrinally and historically, Pure Land Buddhism is closer to the bhakti movement of Hinduism than any other school of Buddhism.

And all the Dharmic religions, whether Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, or Jainism, share more similarities than differences, even though the same doctrines are interpreted in different ways.

Since all these religions teach tolerance and non-violence, they've never committed violence against each other on the same scale as the Abrahamic faiths.
 
Upvote 0