Same-Sex Marriage: Not Best for Children

As I was saying · Jun 30, 2015

ebia said:
If we hypothetically assume that all else being equal children do better with a good father, a good mother, a good extended family and a good community...

There are still massively more children deprived of some or all of those things by factors other than gay marriage -factors we could be doing something serious to address.

This argument comes up regularly in the debate but is not valid as it allows for something that will add to the problems children already experience.

Yes we should be doing something about them and as far as I can see the church has been the largest single group that is doing something about them with all sorts of ministries that are giving children a better chance in life.

I was brought up fatherless which had a devastating effect on me and to thank God for his grace and love to me I am starting a ministry to the.....fatherless.

ebia · Jun 30, 2015

SolomonVII said:
In the world of post-modern definition, if it involves a man an a girl, it is heterosexual rape,

No.

So the rest falls.

ebia · Jun 30, 2015

As I was saying said:
This argument comes up regularly in the debate but is not valid as it allows for something that will add to the problems children already experience.

Yes we should be doing something about them and as far as I can see the church has been the largest single group that is doing something about them with all sorts of ministries that are giving children a better chance in life.

I was brought up fatherless which had a devastating effect on me and to thank God for his grace and love to me I am starting a ministry to the.....fatherless.

1. The response is not proportionate.
2. Much of the problem stems from poverty, that is caused as much by christians being greedy as anything else.

As I was saying · Jun 30, 2015

Fish and Bread said:
I wonder where children with two same-sex guardians fall statistically when it comes to stuff like that.

And what about kids who are unlikely to be adopted and just get shuffled through foster home after foster home and institution after institution? Wouldn't some of them have better outcomes in a permanent family with two men or two women when the alternative is not ever having a real family? I know in particular, African-American children have a hard time getting adopted in this country. I briefly corresponded via email with a white gay Episcopalian priest who married his long-time partner. They adopted a bunch of African-American kids. Now those kids have a permanent home with two loving adults and they probably go to church every Sunday and live in a rectory and have a whole parish community to give them guidance and support. That's gotta be better than an orphanage or a never ending series of foster homes, some of which are bound to be questionable, doesn't it?

The first question is "What is best for children." The jury is not out on this one. A biological mum and dad that are married. We should always make that the be all and end all of our decision making. Because of sin, we have fouled up big time and the main sufferers are children. Introducing another scenario is NOT going to solve the problem children face. In fact it exacerbates it.

Over the last 10 years homosexual researchers have gone out of their way to claim that homosexuals make better parents than biological ones. The research was debunked because it did not comply with the scientific rigour needed for such research. Mainly such small numbers and the fact that the children were interviewed in front of their parents so they were obviously not going to say my homosexual parents are lousy.

Now however, the truth is starting to come out. These children are reaching the age of consent and are being interviewed without parents and the story is not nice and indicate that homosexual parenting should be avoided at all costs, that is, if the children's needs are uppermost.

Whenever I read about a homosexual wanting to adopt children in most cases it was being done to make the homosexual happy, not the child.

ebia · Jun 30, 2015

As I was saying said:
The first question is "What is best for children." The jury is not out on this one. A biological mum and dad that are married. We should always make that the be all and end all of our decision making. Because of sin, we have fouled up big time and the main sufferers are children. Introducing another scenario is NOT going to solve the problem children face. In fact it exacerbates it.

Over the last 10 years homosexual researchers have gone out of their way to claim that homosexuals make better parents than biological ones. The research was debunked because it did not comply with the scientific rigour needed for such research. Mainly such small numbers and the fact that the children were interviewed in front of their parents so they were obviously not going to say my homosexual parents are lousy.

In fact, a lot of the debunking has itself been debunked.

Sociological studies often do watch very small numbers in high detail.

Now however, the truth is starting to come out. These children are reaching the age of consent and are being interviewed without parents and the story is not nice and indicate that homosexual parenting should be avoided at all costs, that is, if the children's needs are uppermost.

Citation?

Whenever I read about a homosexual wanting to adopt children in most cases it was being done to make the homosexual happy, not the child.

Exactly the same can be said about hetrosexual couples.

As I was saying · Jun 30, 2015

ebia said:
Fantastic. However, there are plenty of really bad hetrosexusl parents as well.

Children benefit where they have a good mum, and a good dad, and a good extended family, and a good community.

However, pretty much everyone makes do with something short of that - very often much short.

Two good parents of the same sex can be way better than than a hetrosexual family where one of the parents is not good.

Having two bad heterosexual parents is not the norm and no decision should be based on such an idea. In my country 81% of children live with their married parents in normal situations so no, pretty much everyone does not make do with something short of that.

Evidence would suggest that two good parents of the same sex do not exist. For example, two men do not hold monogamy as a standard. From my research, one or the other has sex on the side weekly. In addition, the average male homosexual relationship is two years. That means any child brought up by them had a new male mother on a regular basis. That is pretty much guaranteed to send you round the twist.

As I was saying · Jun 30, 2015

ebia said:
In fact, a lot of the debunking has itself been debunked.

Sociological studies often do watch very small numbers in high detail.

Citation?

Exactly the same can be said about hetrosexual couples.

Reply one: No it hasn't.

Reply two: No they don't. Individual ones might be but they are confirmed by many different studies.

Reply three: Google Children of homosexual parents.

Reply four: Having studied marriage and parenting for my Social Science Degree, I have not found any evidence that people getting married intended to make fornication the norm.

ebia · Jun 30, 2015

As I was saying said:
Having two bad heterosexual parents is not the norm and no decision should be based on such an idea. In my country 81% of children live with their married parents in normal situations so no, pretty much everyone does not make do with something short of that.

So 20% are missing one parent.
A futher percentage have one or both parents of very poor quality.
A futher percentage are missing the extended family.
Pretty close to everyone in a modern western society is missing the community.
A futher percentage have decidely mediocre parents.

Evidence would suggest that two good parents of the same sex do not exist.

If you want to cite evidence you have to actually cite it.

For example, two men do not hold monogamy as a standard.

Which two?

From my research, one or the other has sex on the side weekly. In addition, the average male homosexual relationship is two years.

The whole point of marriage is that it encourages longer/permanent relationships.

But most same-sex marriages, and I would guess adoptions, are female-female.

Same-sex = male-male seems to have something to do with popular obsessions. I wonder.

That means any child brought up by them had a new male mother on a regular basis. That is pretty much guaranteed to send you round the twist.

one would hope that all prospective adoptive families are being vetted for stability.

As I was saying · Jun 30, 2015

WarriorAngel said:
Besides the study i posted - im ever the absolute curious one and lemme tell ya - i know a LOT of gays. And i do ask questions... I guess i want to know how the studies compare to the sites.
I know of none who wished they didnt have both.
Many of the gay guys [and the women too] wished they had a closer bond with their same sex parent.

Ask any child "Would you like to be raised by biological parents or two homosexuals" and the response would be 100% one way. There is a lot of incorrect information thrown about regarding bad parents. The fact is even with bad parents the child still loves them and wants to be with them in many, many cases and would not change it for two men parenting them.

I saw a programme about life in the Philippines and it focussed on families that live in abject poverty. One family lived in a hovel next to a rubbish dump and the two children scavenged the dump each day for scraps. The presenter of the programme could not believe how happy the children were. He worked out that they were loved and cherished by their parents although they had nothing, which gave them a sense of security and stability and that made up for everything they did not have.

Too often we see good or bad parenting in terms of the things that are being offered whereas that could not be further from the truth. All across the world children who have nothing are often happier than children who have everything.

Archaeopteryx · Jun 30, 2015

As I was saying said:
Ask any child "Would you like to be raised by biological parents or two homosexuals" and the response would be 100% one way. There is a lot of incorrect information thrown about regarding bad parents. The fact is even with bad parents the child still loves them and wants to be with them in many, many cases and would not change it for two men parenting them.

I saw a programme about life in the Philippines and it focussed on families that live in abject poverty. One family lived in a hovel next to a rubbish dump and the two children scavenged the dump each day for scraps. The presenter of the programme could not believe how happy the children were. He worked out that they were loved and cherished by their parents although they had nothing, which gave them a sense of security and stability and that made up for everything they did not have.

Too often we see good or bad parenting in terms of the things that are being offered whereas that could not be further from the truth. All across the world children who have nothing are often happier than children who have everything.

Are you suggesting that it is better for children to live in a home with two bad heterosexual parents than it is for them to live in a home with two good homosexual parents?

ebia · Jun 30, 2015

As I was saying said:
Reply one: No it hasn't.

Wr, yes it has.

Reply two: No they don't.

Yes they do. I've been studying a bit of sociology at Masters level in an entirely different context.

Individual ones might be but they are confirmed by many different studies.

And there have been something like 70 studies that found no worse results for same-sex families

Reply three: Google Children of homosexual parents.

Google is not a citation

Reply four: Having studied marriage and parenting for my Social Science Degree, I have not found any evidence that people getting married intended to make fornication the norm.

Completely unconnected to the point is replying to.

Archaeopteryx · Jun 30, 2015

As I was saying said:
Having two bad heterosexual parents is not the norm and no decision should be based on such an idea. In my country 81% of children live with their married parents in normal situations so no, pretty much everyone does not make do with something short of that.

Evidence would suggest that two good parents of the same sex do not exist. For example, two men do not hold monogamy as a standard. From my research, one or the other has sex on the side weekly. In addition, the average male homosexual relationship is two years. That means any child brought up by them had a new male mother on a regular basis. That is pretty much guaranteed to send you round the twist.

The evidence is stacked against you:
What We Know—Really—About Lesbian and Gay Parenting | Slate

AmericanChristian91 · Jun 30, 2015

As I was saying said:
as a standard. From my research, one or the other has sex on the side weekly. In addition, the average male homosexual relationship is two years. That means any child brought up by them had a new male mother on a regular basis. That is pretty much guaranteed to send you round the twist.

Well these two have been together for 54 years before getting legally married.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...allas-jack-evans-george-harris_n_7684464.html

And I have heard other stories of long term committed same sex relationships.

Of course just like there is cheating/break ups in hetero romances, It happens in same sex ones to. That being the case does not mean committed relationships are rare for gays.

Archaeopteryx · Jun 30, 2015

As I was saying said:
The first question is "What is best for children." The jury is not out on this one. A biological mum and dad that are married.

No, a stable and nurturing home environment, regardless of the gender of the parents.

We should always make that the be all and end all of our decision making. Because of sin, we have fouled up big time and the main sufferers are children. Introducing another scenario is NOT going to solve the problem children face. In fact it exacerbates it.

Let's not pretend that this is really about what is best for the children. This is about using children as the pretence for casting aspersions on people who are gay. It's despicable.

Over the last 10 years homosexual researchers have gone out of their way to claim that homosexuals make better parents than biological ones. The research was debunked because it did not comply with the scientific rigour needed for such research. Mainly such small numbers and the fact that the children were interviewed in front of their parents so they were obviously not going to say my homosexual parents are lousy.

Now however, the truth is starting to come out. These children are reaching the age of consent and are being interviewed without parents and the story is not nice and indicate that homosexual parenting should be avoided at all costs, that is, if the children's needs are uppermost.

First you accuse those studies not being rigorous enough. Then you elevate anecdote to the highest level of evidence. Something tells me that rigour isn't your primary concern here.

Whenever I read about a homosexual wanting to adopt children in most cases it was being done to make the homosexual happy, not the child.

Could we say the same heterosexuals wanting to adopt?

WarriorAngel · Jun 30, 2015

Citations from the site....
ETC

1. Dawn Fisher, "Adult Sex Offenders: Who are They? Why and How Do They Do It?" in Tony Morrison, et al., eds.,Sexual Offending Against Children (London: Routledge, 1994), p. 11.

2. Kee MacFarlane, et al., Sexual Abuse of Young Children: Evaluation and Treatment (New York: The Guilford Press, 1986), p. 9.

3. John Briere, et al.,eds., The APSAC Handbook on Child Maltreatment (Thousand Oaks, California: Sage Publications, 1996), pp. 52, 53.

4. Kurt Freund, et al., "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (Fall 1984): 198; See also Freund, K, and Watson, R. J., "The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual Paedophiles among Sex Offenders against Children: an Exploratory Study," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 18 (1992): 34.

5. Bill Watkins and Arnon Bentovim, "The Sexual Abuse of Male Children and Adolescents: A Review of Current Research," Journal of Child Psychiatry 33 (1992); in Byrgen Finkelman, Sexual Abuse (New York: Garland Publishing, 1995), p. 300.

6. MacFarlane, p. 9.

7. Kurt Freund, et al., "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (1984): 197. "The proportional prevalence of offenders against male children in this group of 457 offenders against children was 36 percent." See also, Kurt Freund, et al., "Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Erotic Age Preference," "Approximately one-third of these individuals had victimized boys and two-thirds had victimized girls. This finding is consistent with the proportions reported in two earlier studies," p. 107.

8. Watkins and Bentovim, p. 315.

9. Robert L. Johnson, "Long-term Effects of Sexual Abuse in Boys," Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality (September 1988): 38.

10. "Understanding and Investigating Child Sexual Exploitation," (U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, 1997), p. 12.

11. Watkins and Bentovim, p. 302.

12. Dan Black, et al., "Demographics of the Gay and Lesbian Population in the United States: Evidence from Available Systematic Data Sources," Demography 37 (May 2000): 141.

13. John O. G. Billy, et al., "The Sexual Behavior of Men in the United States," Family Planning Perspectives 25 (March/April 1993): 58.

14. J. Gordon Muir, "Homosexuals and the 10 percent Fallacy," Wall Street Journal (March 31, 1993).

15. Milton Diamond, "Homosexuality and Bisexuality in Different Populations," Archives of Sexual Behavior 22 (1993):300.

16. Ibid. Significantly, a number of studies that were surveyed, and which skewed the overall percentages of homosexuals upwards, included such vague definers as those having had "any homosexual body contact." In contrast, one study that was limited to self-identifying homosexuals found that less than 2 percent of the male respondents considered their "sexual orientation" to be homosexual, p. 293.

17. Freund, "Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Erotic Age Preference," p. 107. In this and previous studies, Freund claims that homosexuals are no more likely than heterosexuals to be attracted to children (p. 115). However, Silverthorn, et al., mentions the limitations of studies by Freund and others: "Studies of homosexual male preferences are also limited. . . . The Freund et al.(1973) study was possibly compromised because the homosexual men used in the study were selected to be sexually attracted to adults, but not teenaged, males. The Bailey et al. (1994) study was limited in that it did not present participants with objective stimuli but simply asked participants to report what age of sexual partner they preferred . . . the Jankowiak et al. (1992) study . . . was limited in two ways: the homosexual male participants had a limited age range of 'middle-aged professionals' and the stimuli presented to participants were also of a limited age range ('university to middle-aged')." Silverthorn attempted to correct these deficiencies, and in his study found that homosexuals "preferred younger partners than those who preferred female partners"--in cluding those as young as fifteen. Zebulon A. Silverthorne and Vernon L. Quinsey, "Sexual Partner Age Preferences of Homosexual and Heterosexual Men and Women," Archives of Sexual Behavior 29 (February 2000): 67-76.

18. Ray Blanchard, et al., "Fraternal Birth Order and Sexual Orientation in Pedophiles," Archives of Sexual Behavior 29 (2000): 464.

19. Ibid., p. 471.

ETC - many more..

Archaeopteryx · Jun 30, 2015

Are you familiar with the term 'gish gallop'?

Archaeopteryx · Jun 30, 2015

From the Slate article:

Nathaniel Frank said:
The Columbia project is the largest collection of peer-reviewed scholarship on gay parenting to date. What does it show? We found 71 studies concluding that kids with gay parents fare no worse than others and only four concluding that they had problems. But those four studies all suffered from the same gross limitation: The children with gay parents were lumped in with children of family breakup, a cohort known to face higher risks linked to the trauma of family dissolution.

Scalia’s sociological “disagreement” is entirely manufactured. As our collection makes clear, and as the American Sociological Association concluded in its 2013 brief to the Supreme Court, the consensus of serious scholars on the matter is overwhelming.

From that brief:

American Sociological Association said:
However, the claim that same-sex parents produce less positive child outcomes than opposite-sex parents—either because such families lack both a male and female parent or because both parents are not the biological parents of their children—contradicts abundant social science research. Decades of methodologically sound social science research, especially multiple nationally representative studies and the expert evidence introduced in the district courts below, confirm that positive child wellbeing is the product of stability in the relationship between the two parents, stability in the relationship between the parents and child, and greater parental socioeconomic resources. Whether a child is raised by same-sex or opposite-sex parents has no bearing on a child’s wellbeing.

ebia · Jun 30, 2015

As I was saying said:
Ask any child "Would you like to be raised by biological parents or two homosexuals" and the response would be 100% one way.

What?

"Ask any child if you want to be ripped way from your family and given to someone else" - of course they

There is a lot of incorrect information thrown about regarding bad parents. The fact is even with bad parents the child still loves them and wants to be with them in many, many cases and would not change it for two men parenting them.

That's the funny thing about abuse.

I saw a programme about life in the Philippines and it focussed on families that live in abject poverty. One family lived in a hovel next to a rubbish dump and the two children scavenged the dump each day for scraps. The presenter of the programme could not believe how happy the children were. He worked out that they were loved and cherished by their parents although they had nothing, which gave them a sense of security and stability and that made up for everything they did not have.

Too often we see good or bad parenting in terms of the things that are being offered whereas that could not be further from the truth. All across the world children who have nothing are often happier than children who have everything.[/QUOTE]

WarriorAngel said:
Citations from the site....
ETC

1. Dawn Fisher, "Adult Sex Offenders: Who are They? Why and How Do They Do It?" in Tony Morrison, et al., eds.,Sexual Offending Against Children (London: Routledge, 1994), p. 11.

2. Kee MacFarlane, et al., Sexual Abuse of Young Children: Evaluation and Treatment (New York: The Guilford Press, 1986), p. 9.

3. John Briere, et al.,eds., The APSAC Handbook on Child Maltreatment (Thousand Oaks, California: Sage Publications, 1996), pp. 52, 53.

4. Kurt Freund, et al., "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (Fall 1984): 198; See also Freund, K, and Watson, R. J., "The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual Paedophiles among Sex Offenders against Children: an Exploratory Study," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 18 (1992): 34.

5. Bill Watkins and Arnon Bentovim, "The Sexual Abuse of Male Children and Adolescents: A Review of Current Research," Journal of Child Psychiatry 33 (1992); in Byrgen Finkelman, Sexual Abuse (New York: Garland Publishing, 1995), p. 300.

6. MacFarlane, p. 9.

7. Kurt Freund, et al., "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (1984): 197. "The proportional prevalence of offenders against male children in this group of 457 offenders against children was 36 percent." See also, Kurt Freund, et al., "Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Erotic Age Preference," "Approximately one-third of these individuals had victimized boys and two-thirds had victimized girls. This finding is consistent with the proportions reported in two earlier studies," p. 107.

8. Watkins and Bentovim, p. 315.

9. Robert L. Johnson, "Long-term Effects of Sexual Abuse in Boys," Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality (September 1988): 38.

10. "Understanding and Investigating Child Sexual Exploitation," (U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, 1997), p. 12.

11. Watkins and Bentovim, p. 302.

12. Dan Black, et al., "Demographics of the Gay and Lesbian Population in the United States: Evidence from Available Systematic Data Sources," Demography 37 (May 2000): 141.

13. John O. G. Billy, et al., "The Sexual Behavior of Men in the United States," Family Planning Perspectives 25 (March/April 1993): 58.

14. J. Gordon Muir, "Homosexuals and the 10 percent Fallacy," Wall Street Journal (March 31, 1993).

15. Milton Diamond, "Homosexuality and Bisexuality in Different Populations," Archives of Sexual Behavior 22 (1993):300.

16. Ibid. Significantly, a number of studies that were surveyed, and which skewed the overall percentages of homosexuals upwards, included such vague definers as those having had "any homosexual body contact." In contrast, one study that was limited to self-identifying homosexuals found that less than 2 percent of the male respondents considered their "sexual orientation" to be homosexual, p. 293.

17. Freund, "Heterosexuality, Homosexuality, and Erotic Age Preference," p. 107. In this and previous studies, Freund claims that homosexuals are no more likely than heterosexuals to be attracted to children (p. 115). However, Silverthorn, et al., mentions the limitations of studies by Freund and others: "Studies of homosexual male preferences are also limited. . . . The Freund et al.(1973) study was possibly compromised because the homosexual men used in the study were selected to be sexually attracted to adults, but not teenaged, males. The Bailey et al. (1994) study was limited in that it did not present participants with objective stimuli but simply asked participants to report what age of sexual partner they preferred . . . the Jankowiak et al. (1992) study . . . was limited in two ways: the homosexual male participants had a limited age range of 'middle-aged professionals' and the stimuli presented to participants were also of a limited age range ('university to middle-aged')." Silverthorn attempted to correct these deficiencies, and in his study found that homosexuals "preferred younger partners than those who preferred female partners"--in cluding those as young as fifteen. Zebulon A. Silverthorne and Vernon L. Quinsey, "Sexual Partner Age Preferences of Homosexual and Heterosexual Men and Women," Archives of Sexual Behavior 29 (February 2000): 67-76.

18. Ray Blanchard, et al., "Fraternal Birth Order and Sexual Orientation in Pedophiles," Archives of Sexual Behavior 29 (2000): 464.

19. Ibid., p. 471.

ETC - many more..

as already noted, things like "Wall Street journal" are not appropritate citations, there is no citation backing up 1/3 of abuse being committed by homosexuals, and many of the citations do not say what they are being used to say.

Archaeopteryx · Jun 30, 2015

The American Sociological Association even suggests that same-sex marriage is likely to improve the situation for children of same-sex couples:

American Sociological Association said:
The research supports the conclusion that extension of marriage rights to same-sex couples has the potential to improve child wellbeing insofar as the institution of marriage may provide social and legal support to families and enhances family stability, key drivers of positive child outcomes.

Archaeopteryx · Jun 30, 2015

Let's be frank here. None of this is about what's best for the children. This is about casting aspersions on gay parents, using children - their children - as an excuse. It is mean-spirited and despicable, and bears no relation to the literature on the topic. The argument has long been discredited and attempts to resurrect it in threads like these are always unsuccessful.

Same-Sex Marriage: Not Best for Children

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