• The General Mental Health Forum is now a Read Only Forum. As we had two large areas making it difficult for many to find, we decided to combine the Mental Health & the Recovery sections of the forum into Mental Health & Recovery as a whole. Physical Health still remains as it's own area within the entire Recovery area.

    If you are having struggles, need support in a particular area that you aren't finding a specific recovery area forum, you may find the General Struggles forum a great place to post. Any any that is related to emotions, self-esteem, insomnia, anger, relationship dynamics due to mental health and recovery and other issues that don't fit better in another forum would be examples of topics that might go there.

    If you have spiritual issues related to a mental health and recovery issue, please use the Recovery Related Spiritual Advice forum. This forum is designed to be like Christian Advice, only for recovery type of issues. Recovery being like a family in many ways, allows us to support one another together. May you be blessed today and each day.

    Kristen.NewCreation and FreeinChrist

My thought's on 12 step groups, with some constructive criticism. Poll Included

Do you think 12 step groups are effective for you?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 53.3%
  • No

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • They've been mildly effective

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • They've been moderately effective

    Votes: 2 13.3%

  • Total voters
    15

Open Heart

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I believe my addictions are a part of me, however I don't believe they define me. I always wanted to go into these groups and say my name is Michael and I have addiction problems. The reasoning behind this is not that im in denial of my situation, it's because I believe there is so much more to me than the addiction I have.
I used to be diabetic. If I say I had diabetic problems, it comes across sounding like I was approaching diabetes but didn't have the actual illness. Saying I'm an addict is simply acknowledging that I have the disease. It doesn't define me as a person, just as being a diabetic didn't define me as a person. Sometimes Politically Correct speech can get ridiculous. Should I say I am a person with Republican tendencies, simply to avoid a label? Labels are good. They tell me what vegetables are in the can. A label simply says something about you. I am a Catholic. I am a woman. I am a Californian. The totality of me is never encompassed by a label.
 
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Open Heart

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12 stepping is what I call "religion lite," or what others call spirituality. There are certainly members of my NA group who are "fundamentalist" about the whole thing, which I think is very unhealthy. But that is just them, it's not the program.

NA does come as a package deal, no doubt about that. But I don't think that alone qualifies it as a cult. On the other hand, there is nothing in the NA program that demands you live and breath NA. You just work the program.

So why are some in 12 steps so fundamentalist? It's possible that those who feel their lives are defined by NA simply struggle more with their addiction and therefore need more of the 12 steps. Their mistake is in thinking that everyone else has to work the program just exactly like them. Others I think just have the sort of emotional makeup that demands a cult to help them. If they didn't get weird about 12 stepping, they would find their needs met in some other religion, ideology, or program.
 
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Open Heart

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For myself personally, the dynamics of the 12 step program is a healthy way for me to deal with my addictive personality as a whole. I have so many different addictions its not funny. My main group has been NA, but less often I also attend overeaters anonymous (OA) and debters anonymous (DA). Mainly my higher power, Jesus, works through the fellowship of the group. Overeating is the hardest thing I have to deal with because of course I have to eat moderately rather than become food free. The food is always right there in the refrigerator to tempt me. I don't overeat because I think about those in the group, and what I'll have to say to them if I relapse. I pick up the phone and call. You get the idea. The group is the only reason why I didn't eat between meals this afternoon, because the food was surely calling my name.
 
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mikenet2006

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Despite my last post, Im thinking I'll make replies as long as others here want to talk about it.

Open Heart it sounds like you did what might have been more effective for me. You took in what you needed, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you weren't in step with the fundamentalist on everything. I'm a personality type who cant do that much of the time. I tend to be effected by the atmosphere of my surroundings. I also take in termonoligy and wording, and take those things seriously. Doing that eduacates me and makes me more aware of the general direction of the group. I get an idea for what the fundimentalist encorage me to believe, and in the groups I've been in, the long time members seem to take up a lot of time in the group, and to me were setting the mood in the group.

You were able to separate what you thought was right (for you) from what I can tell, I had a hard time doing this until I left that atmosphere to get my own understanding of it. In retrospect some of what they teach is great to live by, some of it even being common sense to me, such as admitting I have problems I need to address. That's necessary to make any positive changes. If someone isn't aware of whats hurting them, or ignore it, then the hope of changing it is pretty low.

I couldn't get past the dogma in these groups though, and the generally depressing atmosphere of them. I watched as a huge chunk of newcomes got discouradged at left, so I did stick around long enough to see so many people come and leave within a short amount of time, one of whom was a friend of mine who I encouradged to try it out. I've seen those with long time sobriety get to a point where they left as well, that's just my experience.

Suprisingly I feel this way in church less often, and when attending I can separate what I don't agree with much easier. It might be because the atmosphere is different than the 12 step groups I've attended. The vast majority of people attending the church I attend seem to be about spreading love, and the pastors I've known have such a positive attitude. They say things that make me happy, and I feel like I'm going to be okay and God loves me no matter what. Maybe it's the local branch of 12 step groups that was the problem, but most things in those groups were so depressing to me, they seemed to focus too much on negative things, and the people attending were more depressed in general.

So I dont agree with some of the beliefs of Christians, but I'm happy when I go. I'll give you an example, I have a huge difference of opinion with most Christians and pastors when it comes to the concept of hell or abandonment. Most Christians believe that man is responsible for the conditions here on earth, I believe God who gave us free will is most responsible. Being all knowing I believe God would have foresaw what man would do with free will. Based on that I like to think God would have the responsibility to make sure nobody goes to a place of eternal damnation. Other Christians belive there is no hell and those who dont follow the right path simply cease to exsist, neither of these beliefs commonly held by Christians do I believe in. I don't believe we have to be saved, I believe we are going to be saved, and everyone is going to be taken care of no matter what. As for the wrong doers, they got that way for a reason, and I believe they can be redirected even after death. God in my opinion is all powerful and can do or undo anything. Earth isn't nessesarily a bad place though, it's often hard and discouradging but I think it's beautiful in its diversity and God must have had this planned.

Hell or abandonment is a huge fundemental difference I have with most Christians, it worries me some that my beliefs are different on that, but the churches I go to aren't the type that give you every reason your not going to be accepted, they encouradge you to make healthy desicisions. To me many of the other types of churches are scaring people to believe what they do, and I think that's how many of these 12 step groups function.

To end this I just want to say that I'm wanting to replace negative things and people with positive things and people, as well as positive activities. If those things can take center focus in my life than my problems wont be so overwhelming, and I've seen this approach work. I'm very happy that individuals such as yourself are feeling better and doing better by going to 12 step groups. I think the method is less important than the results so if it works, it works. I'm hoping to find my nitch as well, I'm searcing for it and making some progress but still have a long way to go, I just remember what hasn't worked for me.

Sorry for the length of the response, I know it's a lot.

P.S. It might have sounded like I was splitting hairs with the termonoligy but political correctness is also something that I generally dont like, I'm registerd Republican as well. Im a moderate conservative and almost a centrist though.
 
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Subliminal

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I used to be a drug addict for 7 years. Clean from dope over a year and a half now. NA never helped me. I found sobriety by the grace of God through a long-term Christian treatment center. Here's the first thing I don't like about NA: "my name is __ and I'm an addict" when even people with years of sobriety say that.

I'm not an addict. I've repented of that. I've been delivered! I'm a son of the most high God, a co-heir with Christ, precious, loved, and blameless. How beautiful and wonderful is it to know God has saved me, picked me up, and holds me in his arms! I can live in freedom, deliverance, grace, and know that he is right there beside me whenever I need him. That is what brings me joy, happiness, and peace.

Not some meetings reminding me I'm an "addict" or how bad I am and all the wrong I've done when I've already confessed those sins.

My experiences with NA/AA is an environment of self-pity, sadness, depression, and it feels like everyone's on the brink of a relapse like their just about to go over the edge.

A pastor once come to our center to preach a sermon on 12 step meetings. I can't remember exactly how it went, but the holy spirit was on fire speaking through him. I remember the passion and energy he proclaimed when he said "God doesn't need 12 steps to deliver you from addiction. He only needs one step, and his name is Jesus Christ! Surrender everything by putting all your faith and trust Him."

2 Corinth 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
 
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mikenet2006

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Although some are different and stay positive, that's my thougts on many 12 step members as well. I'm aprehensive about saying this still though because many take it as an indicator that I'm rejecting help, and don't want to get better. I really am searching for somethiing different, and love to give everything a try. I was in these groups for a large part of the last few years and often got the same impression you did. I wanted the program to work, it just wasn't for me though.

As far as the (once an addict always an addict) mentallity that they have, they point to chemistry in the brain to substantiate that claim much of the time, but from what I'm being told now the brain can be rewired to function differently than what it's been accustom to. My therapist is working with me on something called EMDR, as well as other techniques. The brain chemistry of someone addicted to something can be part genetic, but these behaviors are generally learned behaviors which can change your brain chemistry over time. So the very act of getting into bad routines and doing something harmful can change your brain chemistry. His belief is that if you change your actions your brain can be rewired and massive healing can take place. In other words a cure for those with addiction problems.

You found your way through Jesus, personally I believe that can have a massive change on someone as well, and if that worked for you it says a lot.
 
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Sadiegrl

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Hi Mikenet and others,

I wanted to comment on this thread as firstly, I definitely agree with you in your points made against 12 step groups and I'll expand on why, and secondly to share a bit of what has worked for me.

I have struggled with addictions and many other things in my life. I am a dedicated follower of Christ, but prior to this level of communion with Christ, I struggled much more with dangerous drugs and habits. I came to learn that this was my way of subduing the pain I suffered as a child and was my way of coping with the hurt. Self-medicating is what I think the 12 step groups called it. Anyways, I eventually ended up in rehab where they really pushed the 12 step program and my getting a sponsor...or else you couldn't advance in the rehab or get any privileges. While I enjoyed the meetings and talking openly about problems and the attention received, it didn't help me stay clean. Having friends that were also in NA weren't the best accountability partners and AA groups most people were much older than I and I didn't feel like I connected.

I also didn't feel like I should be labeled as an addict or alcoholic, or whatever label that particular meeting wanted me to wear. If I didn't, people kind of shunned me or acted like I was in denial, or stuck up...all were untrue, I simply was a broken person and struggled with life. There were no groups that could heal me. Also I found it weird that you could make up your own higher power if you wanted, I think one example was a doorknob...I mean come on...

Praise God that He meets us more than halfway, and frees us from our anxious thoughts and fears (Ps. 34). I can't exactly recall how I came to CR, Celebrate Recovery, but it is a Christ centered 12 step group with the steps just slightly modified. The meetings were similar but also largely different. Worship for the first 20 min or so, then a lesson or testimony from someone, then womens or mens small groups. Their motto was for people who struggle with life's hurts, habits, and hangups. So you introduced yourself and said what you were currently struggling with and you could go to a different small group every time depending on how your week was. This helped me so much as the things I struggled with varied throughout each day. I still had my reservations as in traditional meetings, but I could feel Christ's healing power was present there. It helped me focus on individual issues and didn't expect me to be free of all addictions from the get go or else I was still in denial. I ended up joining the small step study groups which were gender specific and not co-ed. This helped alot because I was so broken and self-conscious I would not feel comfortable confessing great issues in front of the opposite sex. I tried to work the program and get a sponsor and pair up with some accountability partners, other females, but I couldn't get past my 4th step...it seemed too insurmountable a task and I ended up dropping out of that class. My sponsor dropped me because she had too many other girls to sponsor and I wasn't ready to talk about my past. So I remained in my addictions a while longer and allowed God's healing to have control. I knew I had to deal with my childhood and eventually returned for another small group class to tackle my biggest root of pain. This was why I used, and drank, and felt loveless. And God turned me into something new, little by little. Leaving scars to remain as reminders of where I came from and encouragement to help others who were like me. I still have things I struggle with, but I'm nowhere near that pit I lived in for so long; God's allowed me to go through things so I better understand them and see how it really is all about Him and His healing power. The more I learn of Him and read His word, the more I heal and mature in Christ. But one thing is important to know, I still have my own thorn in the flesh and that weakness will not be removed until Christ returns. As the Lord told to Paul and all of us that His power is made strong in our weaknesses, and Paul's response was to rejoice in the Lord.

Thanks for listening/reading!
Blessings in Christ
 
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mikenet2006

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Hi Mikenet and others,

I wanted to comment on this thread as firstly, I definitely agree with you in your points made against 12 step groups and I'll expand on why, and secondly to share a bit of what has worked for me.

I have struggled with addictions and many other things in my life. I am a dedicated follower of Christ, but prior to this level of communion with Christ, I struggled much more with dangerous drugs and habits. I came to learn that this was my way of subduing the pain I suffered as a child and was my way of coping with the hurt. Self-medicating is what I think the 12 step groups called it. Anyways, I eventually ended up in rehab where they really pushed the 12 step program and my getting a sponsor...or else you couldn't advance in the rehab or get any privileges. While I enjoyed the meetings and talking openly about problems and the attention received, it didn't help me stay clean. Having friends that were also in NA weren't the best accountability partners and AA groups most people were much older than I and I didn't feel like I connected.

I also didn't feel like I should be labeled as an addict or alcoholic, or whatever label that particular meeting wanted me to wear. If I didn't, people kind of shunned me or acted like I was in denial, or stuck up...all were untrue, I simply was a broken person and struggled with life. There were no groups that a doorknob...I mean come on...

Praise God that He meets us more than halfway, and frees us from our anxious thoughts and fears (Ps. 34). I can't exactly recall how I came to CR, Celebrate Recovery, but it is a Christ centered 12 step group with the steps just slightly modified. The meetings were similar but also largely different. Worship for the first 20 min or so, then a lesson or testimony from someone, then womens or mens small groups. Their motto was for people who struggle with life's hurts, habits, and hangups. So you introduced yourself and said what you were currently struggling with and you could go to a different small group every time depending on how your week was. This helped me so much as the things I struggled with varied throughout each day. I still had my reservations as in traditional meetings, but I could feel Christ's healing power was present there. It helped me focus on individual issues and didn't expect me to be free of all addictions from the get go or else I was still in denial. I ended up joining the small step study groups which were gender specific and not co-ed. This helped alot because I was so broken and self-conscious I would not feel comfortable confessing great issues in front of the opposite sex. I tried to work the program and get a sponsor and pair up with some accountability partners, other females, but I couldn't get past my 4th step...it seemed too insurmountable a task and I ended up dropping out of that class. My sponsor dropped me because she had too many other girls to sponsor and I wasn't ready to talk about my past. So I remained in my addictions a while longer and allowed God's healing to have control. I knew I had to deal with my childhood and eventually returned for another small group class to tackle my biggest root of pain. This was why I used, and drank, and felt loveless. And God turned me into something new, little by little. Leaving scars to remain as reminders of where I came from and encouragement to help others who were like me. I still have things I struggle with, could heal me. Also I found it weird that you could make up your own higher power if you wanted, I think one example was but I'm nowhere near that pit I lived in for so long; God's allowed me to go through things so I better understand them and see how it really is all about Him and His healing power. The more I learn of Him and read His word, the more I heal and mature in Christ. But one thing is important to know, I still have my own thorn in the flesh and that weakness will not be removed until Christ returns. As the Lord told to Paul and all of us that His power is made strong in our weaknesses, and Paul's response was to rejoice in the Lord.

Thanks for listening/reading!
Blessings in Christ

I understand. Bad experiences early in life are things I'm trying to heal from as well, I have nightmares a lot. I think many people with addiction issues have had something very difficult in their past. I'm glad you were able to come to terms with it and not let it keep you down.

Pushing a group onto somebody rarely works from my experience, don't feel alone on that one. I went to 12 step groups volentarily but when I went I did often feel concepts were being pushed on me. I couldn't get past the labels either, too many people are different to be defined by one word, or use one method to recover. I had known for a long time that I have problems with addiction, but the way they approached it didn't work for me in general although some of it was helpful. It was good to see some members get better, but I picked up on the idea that 12 steps members often measure sobriety by how long you go without using rather than the progress of the individual.

Also, most people with long term sobriety were more respected in these groups, it was for good reason much of the time, but I found some of them to be cocky and pushy. They see newcomers as dishonest or in denial far too often. I think most newcomers knew very well they had a problem, but when they deviate from the beliefs of long time members it's often frowned uponed.

I've heard of CR, I did some research on it and it looks interesting. From what I can tell many if not most people posting here seem to have different responses to AA and NA type 12 step groups, and are getting better in different ways. The votes coming in are giving mixed results so far, demonstrating to me that there is a way outside these groups to get better.

What I keep thinking is that it's so important that people want to get better, and try to get better, but as for the method used it's not one size fits all. It's encouradging to me to see people getting better outside traditional 12 step groups, and it gives me hope, because I went to those groups for so long without making progress.

___________________________________________________

To update my situation I'm not where I need to be yet. Im still off the Kava which was the one that was hurting me the most, and the primary one I was worried about. I also haven't picked up any new addictions. But my spiritual and mental status is how I'm measuring my recovery. This will take a while but I'm taking steps forward rather than backwards which I feel good about.

I've messed up on the qutting smoking at times, but not very much. I quit buying them over a month ago and quit smoking reguarly, but I've had 4 ciggarettes since I said I was quiting, so like one a week. I'm glad that when I have these setbacks I don't continue to smoke after the first one. It's a work in progress, but I've gone from smoking over a pack a day to having 4 within a 4 to 5 week period. I'm determined to beat this one, but it is difficult.

The caffene and sugar amounts I wanted to lower on are still at healthy levels too. No more drinking energy drinks and sodas on a daily bases, and I'm paying more attention to what I'm putting in my body.

Mostly I need more progress on letting others in, while setting healthy boundaries with people who aren't healthy to be around. Im doing a hiking group now, everybody there is different than the people I've considered friends in the past. In a good way, but it's taking some adjusting. Most of them are older which is fine but I do eventually want to find a nitch within my age group.
 
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mikenet2006

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______________________

One other update, I'm planning on walking perhaps a couple hundred miles Appalachian Trail next year, and I'm preparing my body for that. It's been an idea I've had for a while, but it'll mean I have to be in good shape. It's keeping me focused on not doing unhealthy things to my body. If I'm deeply addicted to something like kava or cigarettes agian this trip I wont happen. If anyone here hasn't seen my links on the effects of prolonged Kava use it might be something to look into if your wanting to know more or get away from it. After using it heavily for over a year, I'm convinced it's worse than alcohol.
 
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Sadiegrl

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One other update, I'm planning on walking perhaps a couple hundred miles Appalachian Trail next year, and I'm preparing my body for that. It's been an idea I've had for a while, but it'll mean I have to be in good shape. It's keeping me focused on not doing unhealthy things to my body. If I'm deeply addicted to something like kava or cigarettes agian this trip I wont happen. If anyone here hasn't seen my links on the effects of prolonged Kava use it might be something to look into if your wanting to know more or get away from it. After using it heavily for over a year, I'm convinced it's worse than alcohol.

Hi Mike,

Good for you on making progress in your recovery, it can be a slow and trudging journey, but eventually we reach milestones. I think that's so awesome you are doing that hike! I just read a book from a woman who hiked the PCT Pacific Crest Trail and her story was intense. However, she did really reach her center and found healing, discipline, and perspective on life, perhaps you will also! I was going to comment how committed exercise is also another healthy way to recover and helps to train our bodies and mind. I've began an exercise schedule a few months back and am really enjoying the balance and peace I feel in addition to more energy and better self-esteem. When we sit idly this is often a motivation to appease our addictions, as I find my biggest struggles are with boredom, even if I have plenty to do, I think this stems from my lack of a creative outlet. As an artist, I get those weird moods that linger until either stifled or satisfied. I know God is very much at work in me and so when I get disappointed with my lack of visible progress, I just consume His Word and know that it is doing greater work within me than any striving or struggling on my part.

One other thing though about CR, was after I was going for some time, like all other fellowships there started to become groups within of those who had more seniority in their program and it seemed like the focus was turning more on CR being the answer, rather than Christ changing us. I know fellowship is important, but its ridiculous to act as if healing can't take place anywhere else outside the group. I mean, I've learned more in my quiet studies with God and other books than any meeting, not to say that they weren't enlightening, just my experiences. But that is just human nature and pride which is inevitably encountered, and we must learn to deal with it in ourselves first before pointing any fingers. As you said, it is not one size fits all for healing, and the 12 steps are good guidelines, but are not THE WAY.

Thanks!
 
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mikenet2006

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Also, what is Kava? I didn't see a link to it but am curious.

Bordom is bad for me too, I like being able to have times when I can relax but when that turns into not having a direction then it's very easy to drift into unhealthy habbits. For me the bad habbits come before the using, i'll stop cleaning, stop exercising, or let those who dont have my best interest in mind in a little too much. I was always decent at making friends, just not so good at making the right type of friends.

Kava is horrible, I thought it was awesome for a long time. Not everyone has this experience, it can make some sick sooner, but my body seemed to love the stuff. I felt like I could get drunk without a hangover, or headache. I had a high tolerance to it so I had to drink more than whats recommended to get that drunk feeling. I was mixing raw Kava root (ground up into a powder) with liquids such as tea. Most people strain it, but it cost enough that I didn't want to waste any. Foreigners did it so I did it and it made the effects stronger. It caught up with me after months of doing it though, after I was addicted to it. This was the worst case scenario for me because if something made me feel bad the next day, like alcohol, I generally stayed away from it, so this was perfect for me, so I thought.

The first thing I noticed is that it started making me nauseous, then I noticed I just didn't look right anymore. Others were noticing I didn't look good before I did, but eventually it became obvious to me. For the last few months of using it my skin began to get flakey and peel off in spots if I put a lot of friction on it. For example, I tried pulling a pressure washer cord to start the motar and it rubbed my skin off of part of my hand. It hurt some but I was so numb from this stuff that things didn't hurt like they used to. For example I stopped having heartburn no matter what I ate, I think it was numbing my asophicas and stomach a lot.

That wasn't all though, I began to develop weird looking patches on my skin, my eyes got infected and swollen, and right at the very end I developed a UTI. I got put on antibiotics and went into rehab shortly after this. Then I felt everything, my skin and muscles were numb most of the time before, but afterwards I felt like my body had started to rot basically. Everything hurt on top of having withdrawels. I almost forgot, it supressed my apetitite a lot and I lost 40 pounds.

It took a month of getting this stuff out of me for my skin to look better, and for my muscles to feel better. It's the worst thing I've ever tried. I started doing research on it afterwards (should have done more research before) but I found out it's bad for almost everything, including the liver. People have died drinking too much of this, not as many deaths as alcohol but I'm convinced it's because less people use it, or even know about it.

This link describes Kava better...

http://www.nt.gov.au/health/healthdev/health_promotion/bushbook/volume2/chap1/kava.htm


To see what it makes you look like do a google image search of exfoliative dermatitis, or kava dermopathy. These images are disturbing to say the least. My skin didn't get as bad as some, and it fully healed thankfully but this was the path I was on if I didn't quit doing it.
 
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Sadiegrl

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Yikes! Thanks for the info and the pics were pretty scary but not as bad as I was imagining. Good thing you've already detoxed and are off that stuff. Definitely not worth it! It makes me think of how many people are unknowingly addicted to something that is far worse but by the time they realize what it is they are so addicted they can't quit. We seem to justify to ourselves say with cigarettes, as I understand that and am trying to quit too. I'm down to like 1-2 a day but I've quit before for a few years and then picked up again when my husband did too. It's interesting because addictions or the bad habits that trigger them, work in various ways but still along the same lines. Like boredom, for me is just situational and there's not much I can do about it; my husband works two jobs and I raise our three kids while keeping the house clean, doing online school work and occasional freelance writing jobs, and studying, I feel like I've studied God's Word so much that now I need to put stuff into practice...or be doing something more. I have plenty of things on my plate that keep me busy...but because it's become such routine, at least for the past 3 years, that I'm bored while I'm doing everything. Not sure if that makes a lot of sense but its my biggest obstacle right now. It's not very often that I get to see my friends and online networking is cool, but it doesn't have that animated face value.

I feel like I have some overall really good habits and disciplines, but at the same time I struggle with other things... like possible effects of drug use such as an ADD mentality where I flit around half-way completing tasks and then coming back to them as I enter another room. It's frustrating and most likely a result of my past, but the feeling like I need some more excitement is what concerns me. It was one of my biggest issues when I used, and even though I'm not using now, that feeling is still there. I never had an addiction to alcohol, which is why AA wasn't right for me, and I still like to drink but definitely in moderation and only at night when my husband comes home from work. He calls it a night-cap and I've often wondered if that is offensive to God or if He would understand my wanting to unwind after a mentally exhausting day. Three siblings are difficult to keep from fighting each other throughout the day. Really wears on my patience. So then I'm left wondering if I'm feeding an addictive personality, or just go with the flow and relax while I keep growing? Hopefully God isn't disappointed because I still have certain vices.
 
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mikenet2006

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Yikes! Thanks for the info and the pics were pretty scary but not as bad as I was imagining. Good thing you've already detoxed and are off that stuff. Definitely not worth it! It makes me think of how many people are unknowingly addicted to something that is far worse but by the time they realize what it is they are so addicted they can't quit. We seem to justify to ourselves say with cigarettes, as I understand that and am trying to quit too. I'm down to like 1-2 a day but I've quit before for a few years and then picked up again when my husband did too. It's interesting because addictions or the bad habits that trigger them, work in various ways but still along the same lines. Like boredom, for me is just situational and there's not much I can do about it; my husband works two jobs and I raise our three kids while keeping the house clean, doing online school work and occasional freelance writing jobs, and studying, I feel like I've studied God's Word so much that now I need to put stuff into practice...or be doing something more. I have plenty of things on my plate that keep me busy...but because it's become such routine, at least for the past 3 years, that I'm bored while I'm doing everything. Not sure if that makes a lot of sense but its my biggest obstacle right now. It's not very often that I get to see my friends and online networking is cool, but it doesn't have that animated face value.

I feel like I have some overall really good habits and disciplines, but at the same time I struggle with other things... like possible effects of drug use such as an ADD mentality where I flit around half-way completing tasks and then coming back to them as I enter another room. It's frustrating and most likely a result of my past, but the feeling like I need some more excitement is what concerns me. It was one of my biggest issues when I used, and even though I'm not using now, that feeling is still there. I never had an addiction to alcohol, which is why AA wasn't right for me, and I still like to drink but definitely in moderation and only at night when my husband comes home from work. He calls it a night-cap and I've often wondered if that is offensive to God or if He would understand my wanting to unwind after a mentally exhausting day. Three siblings are difficult to keep from fighting each other throughout the day. Really wears on my patience. So then I'm left wondering if I'm feeding an addictive personality, or just go with the flow and relax while I keep growing? Hopefully God isn't disappointed because I still have certain vices.

I view God a lot different than some, I think your far more likely to be judged by a person than by God. As far as that goes my opinion is far different than some Christians. One thing I said before is that I think everyone will be saved but God wants us to make good decisions. Almost everything taught by Christain based churches I agree with, and think great life lessons are being taught. Everytime I walk into a church I feel like the atmosphere is so warm and friendly that I know there's more I need to learn about it. I'm still working on my faith and my beliefs, but I've seen the effect on those with solid beliefs and a high amount of faith. Apart from a fraction of people who get mean pushy and try to scare non believers, I think it's having a positive effect on the majority of people. Those who judge easily are twisting things a bit, that's just my opinion though. However there is some substantiation for it "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone"

God is without sin but I believe if Jesus was God incarnate then God is similar. The God I believe in doesn't find anything offensive, so I think God understands the reasons you have vices. That doesn't mean God doesn't want us to make healthy decisions though, but that's for our sake because God wants us to be happy. I still have vices, as many people do but I'm thinking I can replace many of them by replacing them with things that make me happy without the vice.

It's a work in progress for sure, I just know that when I was in 12 step groups that it was primarily oriented about what is wrong with people who have addiction problems, and the steps themselves focus on this a lot too. It makes sense to an extent, people need to be mindful of things that are hurting them so they can make better decisions, but when I had to go to these groups all the time, and hear the same depressing things I knew about already over and over, it's one of the reasons I quit. I confess to those who I know want me to feel better, and to God. Other people get better in those groups though, and I did learn some things so I cant say its a horrible approach, I can only say it wasn't for me, and isn't the way for everybody.

I have ADHD by the way, it's similar.
 
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Sadiegrl

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Thanks for your encouragement, I do agree with your perspective of God's not being overly critical about what I or anyone else struggles with...if in our weaknesses He is strong, then I should technically rejoice in my weaknesses...however, I've yet to comprehend this mystery.

You mentioned how you enjoy church and the warm welcoming, and this is what caught my interest for Celebrate Recovery. If you haven't been yet, I think you'd really enjoy it as the fellowship is similar to that warm feeling at church. I loved it because the people were all weathered, not perfect looking, and the leaders were all tattooed and yet still clean cut and obviously working their program in a way that brought them joy and not misery. I also found it to be very helpful because once I joined the more intimate 12 step study women's group, I made friends with people from all different backgrounds, only a couple my age, but I find I connect better with people older than me anyways. This group though, lead us through the steps in a functional and biblical fashion where we really had a chance to open up about what we were struggling with. As I mentioned before, the motto was hurts, habits, and hangups, and most people have several issues with each, so the variety of problems being discussed really made it feel like bringing my own into the mix was safe and I didn't have to worry about extra drama. The group lead us through the types of insecurities that many people carry around everyday, but just were unaware of what it was. Say for example, I knew my thoughts could run rampant and create whole new levels of anxiety but if someone were to ask what was bothering me, I couldn't rightly say. After this group, I learned names that may have been thrown at me in previous therapy sessions, but never registered, like specific fears of being unloved, or abandoned, or victims of abuse and the fear of anger, all these things that were coexisting in the same place but never treated. I was able to target these, understand them, pinpoint to where in my life they arose, and deal with it in a healthy and spiritual way. I never learned this in NA or AA, as they would just tell you to call your sponsor...kind of let them deal with it.

I wish I could keep going to CR but circumstances prevent me from having opportunities, and my husband has some reservations about it as a whole. Plus it isn't so much as the meeting that I need, just the social atmosphere of connecting with other Christian who struggle with life and aren't afraid to talk about it. That and as you said previously, replacing the activities that would generally include a vice, with something more positive and joyful. I must share though that something like this has just happened for me as of today. To make a long story short, I used to ride horses a lot as a teen, but haven't since I had kids, my oldest is 10, and I just have left that desire up to God for well a really long time now, and today I was asked to volunteer at a horse rescue ranch. I'm super excited. Praise God for the little things right!
 
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faroukfarouk

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Hi Mikenet and others,

I wanted to comment on this thread as firstly, I definitely agree with you in your points made against 12 step groups and I'll expand on why, and secondly to share a bit of what has worked for me.

I have struggled with addictions and many other things in my life. I am a dedicated follower of Christ, but prior to this level of communion with Christ, I struggled much more with dangerous drugs and habits. I came to learn that this was my way of subduing the pain I suffered as a child and was my way of coping with the hurt. Self-medicating is what I think the 12 step groups called it. Anyways, I eventually ended up in rehab where they really pushed the 12 step program and my getting a sponsor...or else you couldn't advance in the rehab or get any privileges. While I enjoyed the meetings and talking openly about problems and the attention received, it didn't help me stay clean. Having friends that were also in NA weren't the best accountability partners and AA groups most people were much older than I and I didn't feel like I connected.

I also didn't feel like I should be labeled as an addict or alcoholic, or whatever label that particular meeting wanted me to wear. If I didn't, people kind of shunned me or acted like I was in denial, or stuck up...all were untrue, I simply was a broken person and struggled with life. There were no groups that could heal me. Also I found it weird that you could make up your own higher power if you wanted, I think one example was a doorknob...I mean come on...

Praise God that He meets us more than halfway, and frees us from our anxious thoughts and fears (Ps. 34). I can't exactly recall how I came to CR, Celebrate Recovery, but it is a Christ centered 12 step group with the steps just slightly modified. The meetings were similar but also largely different. Worship for the first 20 min or so, then a lesson or testimony from someone, then womens or mens small groups. Their motto was for people who struggle with life's hurts, habits, and hangups. So you introduced yourself and said what you were currently struggling with and you could go to a different small group every time depending on how your week was. This helped me so much as the things I struggled with varied throughout each day. I still had my reservations as in traditional meetings, but I could feel Christ's healing power was present there. It helped me focus on individual issues and didn't expect me to be free of all addictions from the get go or else I was still in denial. I ended up joining the small step study groups which were gender specific and not co-ed. This helped alot because I was so broken and self-conscious I would not feel comfortable confessing great issues in front of the opposite sex. I tried to work the program and get a sponsor and pair up with some accountability partners, other females, but I couldn't get past my 4th step...it seemed too insurmountable a task and I ended up dropping out of that class. My sponsor dropped me because she had too many other girls to sponsor and I wasn't ready to talk about my past. So I remained in my addictions a while longer and allowed God's healing to have control. I knew I had to deal with my childhood and eventually returned for another small group class to tackle my biggest root of pain. This was why I used, and drank, and felt loveless. And God turned me into something new, little by little. Leaving scars to remain as reminders of where I came from and encouragement to help others who were like me. I still have things I struggle with, but I'm nowhere near that pit I lived in for so long; God's allowed me to go through things so I better understand them and see how it really is all about Him and His healing power. The more I learn of Him and read His word, the more I heal and mature in Christ. But one thing is important to know, I still have my own thorn in the flesh and that weakness will not be removed until Christ returns. As the Lord told to Paul and all of us that His power is made strong in our weaknesses, and Paul's response was to rejoice in the Lord.

Thanks for listening/reading!
Blessings in Christ
Sadierl: Yes, I think I follow what you are saying and the bigger issue beyond a specific addiction is one's walk with the Lord and experiencing the power of sin being broken is a bigger, more fundamental issue than being weaned off a particular obsession or addiction. This is how I see it.

Like you say, for the believer to learn to rejoice in the Lord is the best of all.

Blessings.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Thanks for your encouragement, I do agree with your perspective of God's not being overly critical about what I or anyone else struggles with...if in our weaknesses He is strong, then I should technically rejoice in my weaknesses...however, I've yet to comprehend this mystery.

You mentioned how you enjoy church and the warm welcoming, and this is what caught my interest for Celebrate Recovery. If you haven't been yet, I think you'd really enjoy it as the fellowship is similar to that warm feeling at church. I loved it because the people were all weathered, not perfect looking, and the leaders were all tattooed and yet still clean cut and obviously working their program in a way that brought them joy and not misery. I also found it to be very helpful because once I joined the more intimate 12 step study women's group, I made friends with people from all different backgrounds, only a couple my age, but I find I connect better with people older than me anyways. This group though, lead us through the steps in a functional and biblical fashion where we really had a chance to open up about what we were struggling with. As I mentioned before, the motto was hurts, habits, and hangups, and most people have several issues with each, so the variety of problems being discussed really made it feel like bringing my own into the mix was safe and I didn't have to worry about extra drama. The group lead us through the types of insecurities that many people carry around everyday, but just were unaware of what it was. Say for example, I knew my thoughts could run rampant and create whole new levels of anxiety but if someone were to ask what was bothering me, I couldn't rightly say. After this group, I learned names that may have been thrown at me in previous therapy sessions, but never registered, like specific fears of being unloved, or abandoned, or victims of abuse and the fear of anger, all these things that were coexisting in the same place but never treated. I was able to target these, understand them, pinpoint to where in my life they arose, and deal with it in a healthy and spiritual way. I never learned this in NA or AA, as they would just tell you to call your sponsor...kind of let them deal with it.

I wish I could keep going to CR but circumstances prevent me from having opportunities, and my husband has some reservations about it as a whole. Plus it isn't so much as the meeting that I need, just the social atmosphere of connecting with other Christian who struggle with life and aren't afraid to talk about it. That and as you said previously, replacing the activities that would generally include a vice, with something more positive and joyful. I must share though that something like this has just happened for me as of today. To make a long story short, I used to ride horses a lot as a teen, but haven't since I had kids, my oldest is 10, and I just have left that desire up to God for well a really long time now, and today I was asked to volunteer at a horse rescue ranch. I'm super excited. Praise God for the little things right!
Sadiegrl:
To comment a bit further, last week I was invited to some folks' farm and they operated a horse rescue service; the horses were feeding well again after neglect. Your kids would probably enjoying going to such a place. And yes, 'all tattooed and yet clean cut': it's not a contradiction in terms! a lot of professionals, serious-minded moms, etc. have ink which is often both tastefully done and can be covered. And you're right, it's learning to think Biblically that really counts. Blessings.
 
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Colter

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I've worked ALL the 12 steps and continue working them, they come from God. I completely surrendered to God and resigned from the debating society when I was 22 years old. I got "yea-but" out of my auto response system, trusted the prosess and have been clean ever since.

No one ever labeled me, they still don't. Different people use diffent ways to introduce themselves which is generally a reaffirmation of step 1, surrender to God.

I am sooooo grateful that my bottom was such that I stopped fighting the program and faced the truth about myself. I love the fellowship and the Loving God that is at the heart of it.
 
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mikenet2006

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Thanks for your encouragement, I do agree with your perspective of God's not being overly critical about what I or anyone else struggles with...if in our weaknesses He is strong, then I should technically rejoice in my weaknesses...however, I've yet to comprehend this mystery.

You mentioned how you enjoy church and the warm welcoming, and this is what caught my interest for Celebrate Recovery. If you haven't been yet, I think you'd really enjoy it as the fellowship is similar to that warm feeling at church. I loved it because the people were all weathered, not perfect looking, and the leaders were all tattooed and yet still clean cut and obviously working their program in a way that brought them joy and not misery. I also found it to be very helpful because once I joined the more intimate 12 step study women's group, I made friends with people from all different backgrounds, only a couple my age, but I find I connect better with people older than me anyways. This group though, lead us through the steps in a functional and biblical fashion where we really had a chance to open up about what we were struggling with. As I mentioned before, the motto was hurts, habits, and hangups, and most people have several issues with each, so the variety of problems being discussed really made it feel like bringing my own into the mix was safe and I didn't have to worry about extra drama. The group lead us through the types of insecurities that many people carry around everyday, but just were unaware of what it was. Say for example, I knew my thoughts could run rampant and create whole new levels of anxiety but if someone were to ask what was bothering me, I couldn't rightly say. After this group, I learned names that may have been thrown at me in previous therapy sessions, but never registered, like specific fears of being unloved, or abandoned, or victims of abuse and the fear of anger, all these things that were coexisting in the same place but never treated. I was able to target these, understand them, pinpoint to where in my life they arose, and deal with it in a healthy and spiritual way. I never learned this in NA or AA, as they would just tell you to call your sponsor...kind of let them deal with it.

I wish I could keep going to CR but circumstances prevent me from having opportunities, and my husband has some reservations about it as a whole. Plus it isn't so much as the meeting that I need, just the social atmosphere of connecting with other Christian who struggle with life and aren't afraid to talk about it. That and as you said previously, replacing the activities that would generally include a vice, with something more positive and joyful. I must share though that something like this has just happened for me as of today. To make a long story short, I used to ride horses a lot as a teen, but haven't since I had kids, my oldest is 10, and I just have left that desire up to God for well a really long time now, and today I was asked to volunteer at a horse rescue ranch. I'm super excited. Praise God for the little things right!

:( It'd be nice if you could go if CR was helping. Did you explain these groups were helping, or did you mostly voice your concerns about them to your husband? Discouradging someone from trying something based on what they believe is unfortunate, I wouldn't know if he has some good reasons, and don't mean to get too personal. I have some mixed feelings on that one I suppose.

As long as your getting better that's what's important, if you can find that at home with family that's awesome, if CR was helping you that could be something to consider, if you feel you want it still.

I didn't like or agree with traditional 12 step groups like AA or NA in a lot of ways, but I encouradged a friend to try it. I gave him my books and said it might be able to help. He ended up not liking the groups, but each person with these problems respond differently and has a different experience from what I can tell. Colter who has many post here seemed to get help in the traditional 12 step groups, I didn't like them at all. To each his own, ya know?


Colter
"I've worked ALL the 12 steps and continue working them, they come from God. I completely surrendered to God and resigned from the debating society when I was 22 years old. I got "yea-but" out of my auto response system, trusted the prosess and have been clean ever since.

No one ever labeled me, they still don't. Different people use diffent ways to introduce themselves which is generally a reaffirmation of step 1, surrender to God.

I am sooooo grateful that my bottom was such that I stopped fighting the program and faced the truth about myself. I love the fellowship and the Loving God that is at the heart of it."

We've gone back and fourth a bit. The standerd way to introduce yourself in a program like AA is to say your name then say your an addict, I've rarely seen anyone deviate from that, so it set the tone of things and from my experience and it was usually the same thing most of the time. We'd introduce ourselves, talk about what's wrong with us and have less time to go over other things.

I would have felt better if people were going to these groups and saying I'm here to get healthy and feel better, and let that set the tone for the group. The solution and the positive things should be explained more than they were, and those positive things should take center focus in these groups more than the problem, in my opinion.

Some of the literature is based around the solution of finding help through God or a higher power, but the majority of the time taken up in these groups was taken up either by long time members who explained their horrible life story or newcomers who were depressed. In the groups themselves I wanted to hear more about how God was manifesting himself in everyday activities. In other words I wanted to hear more about what people were doing that was positive in everyday life. I wanted to hear about healthy activities and perhaps even have days where you did good things that had nothing to do with the addiction. Doing healthy things with people who want to do healthy things with you, and the newcomers could set their own pace on what to participate in. That would encouradge people to replace negative habbits with positive activites.

For me there was no point going to a group where people were explaining things I knew about myself already, it was discouradging to me to see that take up so much time in these groups. Yea I wanted to share the problems I had, but I didn't want to focus on it all the time either. I did step 1 before going to these groups, I had admitted I had a problem and knew about it all to well, I knew I needed help, I still do need help to be where I want to be.

So for me facing my problems and admitting them is one thing, rehashing them on a daily bases, and hearing others do the same was depressing.

One thing I noticed is that you said you stopped fighting the program and faced the truth about yourself. What if one faces the truth, tries to get better, but the group doesn't help at all? Personally I didn't have to accept that group fully to want to make changes, but the literature encouradges you to take on the program fully, those newcomers who didn't like the group were explained as being incapable of being honest....

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

Getting better isnt simple, it's hard. With whatever path a person should choose, getting better is a long and complicated process for many if not most. It's complicated for many reasons, one of the big reasons is that people in our lives can often make it hard, or a persons schedual can make it difficult to make groups as much as sponsors want you to. With or without 12 steps healing is a process that takes time. The paragraph above is making promises that cant be kept, not always due to those who are rejecting help, also for some who are genuinely trying to get better, it doesn't work for everyone. From my experience and from what I'm reading, there have been many I've seen who worked the steps a lot, but leave because they didn't like the program or thought it was no longer helping, these stories are everywhere.

For those who have recovered in one of these groups I can say only say that's awesome. I believe if it works, then work it, more than "it works if you work it" if that makes sense.
 
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