Born of water and the Spirit

JustHisKid said:

John 3
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John's water baptism was a baptism of repentance. Jesus baptism is a baptism of the Spirit. Is Jesus saying that what is required to see the kingdom of God is to repent and be born of His Spirit? What good then is being dipped in water?

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It's been a while since you posted, and nobody has answered. So I'll tell you my opinion. Then I expect everyone will show up and tell you how wrong I am.

Why get baptized/dunked you ask?

HEB 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine/Logos of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms,

As you can see from scripture. The "elementary teachings or "principles of doctrine", includes Multiple baptisms as being necessary to go on to "perfection" or as some translations say "maturity". Getting dunked is ONE of them.

How is someone born of the Spirit?

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The spora/seed of the word of God (gospel) must be planted in your heart by the feminine/church/bride. And the sperma/seed of the Holy Spirit must come upon it "overshadow" to bring forth a new birth.

Mary 'heard' the word/gospel from the angel Gabriel. The Holy Spirit "overshadowed" her, and that word, and Jesus was a conceived. You hear the gospel and the Spirit/God gives the birth/"growth"

Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. The good news/gospel word of God from His angel/messenger.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. The Spirit of God and the power of God conceive.

JustHisKid said:

John 3
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John's water baptism was a baptism of repentance. Jesus baptism is a baptism of the Spirit. Is Jesus saying that what is required to see the kingdom of God is to repent and be born of His Spirit? What good then is being dipped in water?

How is someone born of the Spirit?

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The discourse between Nicodemus and Jesus is all about birth, physical birth and spiritual birth. Jesus is saying what He is saying because He is speaking to a Jew who believed that being physically born a Jew made him fit for the kingdom.

The only ones cleared for entry into the Kingdom of God are those who have been spiritually born from above, by the One who is from above. Being born of the Spirit is spiritual regeneration, which is the divine life of God "brought into being again" within the spirit of the individual who receives Jesus Christ.

Agree with Stenno7 on the meaning of water/spirit. The Baptism practiced by is suppose to be a complete spiritual maker, remission of all sins. Catholics and others believe that is possible only once in this life; so after Baptism restores one to God's Good Grace we need to reconcile all subsequent sin with God to be forgiven.

JustHisKid said:

What is God's Good Grace? What does that mean?
Also, how can you reconcile your subsequent sins with God? If we could reconcile our sins with God, certainly there was no need for Jesus.

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God imparts His Grace because of what the Son did for us. So in this view Baptism actually does something, which again is only possible because of what Jesus did. We continue to sin after Baptism, so we need that same Grace which again is possible only because of what God did for us. We are able to ask Him for forgiveness, making us Holy again (fully in His Good Grace again). Remember "be Holy, as I am Holy"? Am unclear how to see this as not needing Jesus, with out Him nothing just described is possible.

JustHisKid said:

Believers are always covered in God's grace, even when we sin. God doesn't have degrees of grace. If any man be in Christ, he is new.

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

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I understand and I too once believed Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS). The problem is (and was for me when I believed it), we still sin. Sometimes very badly. Does that make us no longer Christians? Or does one simply say the person was never "saved" to begin with?

Catholics and many others do not believe in OSAS. God's Grace and His Spirit dwelling in us are things incompatible with sin, which is understandable both are Good and our sin is a corruption of Good. And this is why a single sin was the cause for the Fall of mankind. Sin destroys our relationship with God. To the degree and severity we sin, the idea is something like we reach a point where God's Grace and His Spirit can no longer dwell in/with us. Demonstrated by Judas betrayal and Peter's denial. Such acts require the Christian to do something, or risk eternal damnation.

BTW many proponents of OSAS solve the problem by talking about either back sliding or saying things like "I thought I was saved, but I wasn't and now I know I am." Said it myself. Have witnessed individuals getting multiple baptisms over decades to account for the problem of sin among Christians. Was Baptized twice myself before becoming Catholic. The Church would only recognize the first valid Baptism. Subsequent sin after Baptism requires the Christian to "reconcile" that offense with God. Catholics call that process "reconciliation". Just like Baptism, reconcilliation is still the Work of the Cross.

JustHisKid said:

For those who do not believe salvation is but once for eternity, you run into the problem of truly having no idea if you will be saved until judgement day and constantly working and striving in hopes you've done enough to "make it". What a horrible way to live. I'm relying on Jesus alone.

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LOL, it is not a matter of have I done enough, but have I allowed Jesus to do enough for me. I can't clean myself up for Him, but He will clean me up repeatedly if I let Him. I would be in denial if I tried to say once was enough and I do not need His help (Grace) anymore.

I would turn around and ask the person who is certain they are "saved" this time to explain how "this time" is any more certain than the last. If the litmus test is we will be Holy like He is Holy, most of us find we fall far short of that - which when we fail badly, if the only answer is, well I must not really been saved - the only out is to "really" get "saved" this time. To me it is a circle that is actually natural due to our fallen state - we Catholics call that process reconciliation. The OSAS crowd calls it "getting saved" and if it happens more than once in a person's lifetime, then well it just didn't take last time. Having reconciliation recognizes our nature and helps us deal with it. To me, OSAS denies our nature and assumes we are above failing Him. Peter made the same assumption the night they led Him away.

JustHisKid said:

I assure you that nobody has been saved more than once. They are truly confused.

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Thanks but that was rather my point. And they would say now that they "are" saved and no longer confused about the validity of it. - we could still ask whether right after the last time they felt confused about the validity of it. I never met anyone that said they were.

If you have to "allow" Jesus to do enough for you, it is still you who is in control, not Him. How do you know if you have allowed Him to do enough? On judgement day. So, it's still a measuring game for you and you certainly hope you have done (allowed) enough. Dang, what a way to live. No thanks. I rest in Jesus, knowing I have eternal life because of His promise to me. Peace.

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It is called faith and my hope. For me it is rather presumptuous to assume I am incapable of failing Him as I do not see myself as stronger than Saint Peter before his faith was tested. I am a sinner and the idea that I am somehow better/above any other sinner or even incapable of being like them because I consider myself "safe" is a dangerous thought - especially when we find ourselves later in the same or similar situation. Peter thought himself safe I am certain. Judas no doubt did too before he got side tracked.

See the reality is both Peter and Judas fell out of the same boat that night. Both fell into despair with the reality of what they had done. Judas to the point he presumed to know better than God whether Jesus would still help him get back in the boat. So he took his own life. Peter sought forgiveness and Jesus lifts Peter back into the boat. Come follow me and those men did - how where they any less "saved" than I am?

So our view is essentially, I was saved (Baptism), I am saved now and I hope to be when I leave this world. I do not see that as an "awful" way to live. I do not live in fear of what I might do and then of what God will do about it. But when I fail as a human, I should be afraid of what He will do if I do not regret that, repent of doing it and ask His forgiveness to atone for failing. Or I could be obstinate in my sin and assume I am safe, immune from His Justice and convince myself that at least I am better then so and so or did not that.

"Allowing" Jesus to help us simply means to listen to our heart before it gets so hard that His Spirit can no longer move us there - as opposed to your suggestion that I am worried that "I" have not "done" enough to get to Heaven. Works may effect our rewards in Heaven, but we cannot purchase our gate pass. He is our lifeguard. His Hand is out for all of us, but that does not stop us from swimming away and the only way back it to turn around and swim back towards Him. Sin is doing the opposite of what we know to be Good, and that sin is not just an insult to Good but it mars our nature - it can mar us to the point we cannot grab that outstretched Hand without utter destruction.

And again, even most OSAS admit we must confess our sins regularly - they just do not call it reconciliation. And they add that if a "Christian" fails badly (we would say sins gravely), well he was just wrong about being Christian in the first place or as you stated "confused". I do not think Saint Peter was confused that night. He was convinced he was safe and would not fail Jesus. He was wrong.

JustHisKid said:

It's not about being capable, it's about believing His promise. That is not at all presumptuous, it is trust.

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So you think your faith is stronger than Saint Peter saying he was willing to die that night and somehow that is called trust and not presumptuous. I do not think it was a matter of trust. Saint Peter was being presumptuous to think he would never fail God.
So why did Saint Paul implore us to run a good race (and talk about failing) instead just telling us to trust that we will?

Wrong. We confess because the Holy Spirit compels us to do so. It is called conviction.

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What part of our heart, the indwelling of the Spirit, the conviction that follows sin...etc from my post did one imagine I would think that it is NOT God compelling us to confess?
Do you just want to believe Catholics must be wrong on everything so any statement must be wrong?

JustHisKid said:

How is someone born of the Spirit?

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Maybe this helps:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is useless. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
John 6:63

Jesus words are the Spirit. If you are born of Spirit, then you are born of his words. The words that Jesus said can make change in person s mind (heart) so that he is born anew. And in practice I understand it means this happens:

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:10-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

JustHisKid said:

John 3
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John's water baptism was a baptism of repentance. Jesus baptism is a baptism of the Spirit. Is Jesus saying that what is required to see the kingdom of God is to repent and be born of His Spirit? What good then is being dipped in water?

How is someone born of the Spirit?

Click to expand...

John 3 has nothing to do with water baptism.