In The Light Of Creationism

Status
Not open for further replies.

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟143,395.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Normal. The Genesis 1 is not a textbook. It is a guidance, not a knowledge.
To you, they make no difference. They are all Creationism.

Then it is useless to use the book, since in that case you have nothing to offer to argue against the interpretation of say, the catholic church.

Either way, you'ld have to look beyond the book at the actual world then.
So why even read the book if you wish to know how the world came to be? Since you say yourself that this book does not contain that knowledge... then you'll have to find that knowledge elsewhere.

So why does the bible then even come up in this topic?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,672
51,419
Guam
✟4,896,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So does every theist, the overwhelming vast majority of which you disagree with on who that god is and how he/she/it operates.
But from an atheist's POV, that should be a major blow to atheism, shouldn't it?

To a person who doesn't believe pizza exists, what does it matter if three people are arguing over an anchovy pizza, pepperoni pizza, or four-cheese pizza?

Even if each one of us contends that the other two pizzas don't exist, we still believe in pizza.
DogmaHunter said:
But that's not what this thread is about. For the purpose of this thread, I actually don't think that a single creationist who's already posted here actually agrees with another one who already posted here.
Again, from an atheist's perspective, that should be an option that is available to believers.

The fact that we're even discussing whose doctrine is right and whose doctrine is wrong is an exercise in non-atheist thinking.
Dogma Hunter said:
Which is strange, since they all seem SO convinced.
What should be even stranger is believing in God at all, from an atheist's POV ... shouldn't it?
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟143,395.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
But from an atheist's POV, that should be a major blow to atheism, shouldn't it?

To a person who doesn't believe pizza exists, what does it matter if three people are arguing over an anchovy pizza, pepperoni pizza, or four-cheese pizza?

It matters if the 3 who believe pizza exists are yelling at the one who doesn't that he deserves eternal torment for not believing the pizza's exist, after which he asks about said pizza and can only see the 3 giving completely contradicting (not to mention ridiculous) definitions of the mysterious pizza.

Having said that, to put it bluntly - off course it doesn't matter to me.

However, I wonder why you people aren't upset by this.
If I was one of you, I'ld be asking myself some serious questions about the fact that it seems that there are about the same number of "bible interpretations" as there are bible-reading christians in the world.......

I'ld certainly wonder about that.

Even if each one of us contends that the other two pizzas don't exist, we still believe in pizza.Again, from an atheist's perspective, that should be an option that is available to believers.

And it is an option, obviously. Believing nonsense is always an option. Because, yes, at LEAST 2 of you believe nonsense, since your 3 versions are mutually exclusive.

Still, it remains bizarre for me.
I'ld expect such level of disagreement if the 3 pizza's were islam, judaism an christianity. But all 3 pizza's here are christian.

So... yeah.

I guess that's why all the denominations exist, at most 1 of which can be correct. Statistics suggest however, that the most likely outcome is that all are wrong - since they all make the same type of claims.

The fact that we're even discussing whose doctrine is right and whose doctrine is wrong is an exercise in non-atheist thinking.What should be even stranger is believing in God at all, from an atheist's POV ... shouldn't it?

You are very skilled in shifting the focus from embarassing topics.
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟45,617.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Normal. The Genesis 1 is not a textbook. It is a guidance, not a knowledge.
To you, they make no difference. They are all Creationism.
See, I asked for the funny, and this thread delivers. You guys purport to have some model of reality based on the writings of a book... But you can't even square that model with each other's interpretations, let alone with observable reality. How 'bout this. You guys talk it out, tell me how Genesis really went down, then offer what advances in technology we can make as a result.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DogmaHunter
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,672
51,419
Guam
✟4,896,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Having said that, to put it bluntly - off course it doesn't matter to me.
I [think] I can see the disagreements not mattering to an atheist -- but I don't understand the agreements not mattering, either.
DogmaHunter said:
However, I wonder why you people aren't upset by this.
I personally am saddened by it; but I realize that the Bible says we will have disagreements until Jesus comes back.

Until then, we will just have to wait for the "unity of the Spirit."
DogmaHunter said:
If I was one of you, I'ld be asking myself some serious questions about the fact that it seems that there are about the same number of "bible interpretations" as there are bible-reading christians in the world.......
Why?

That's to be expected in a fallen world with a Devil that is an expert at clouding issues.

What do you want us to do?

Launch a Holy War? march off on a series of Crusades? initiate an Inquisition?

All just to force each other into a makeshift unity?

Will that change your mind about atheism?
DogmaHunter said:
I'ld certainly wonder about that.
There's nothing wrong with wondering about it.

But when someone explains it, and you still wonder ... well ... some people enjoy scratchng their heads, I guess.
DogmaHunter said:
And it is an option, obviously. Believing nonsense is always an option. Because, yes, at LEAST 2 of you believe nonsense, since your 3 versions are mutually exclusive.
Now you're starting to bring ridicule into the conversation.

Perhaps it's time to end this and leave you to your wonderment, and me to my understanding?
DogmaHunter said:
Still, it remains bizarre for me.
I'm beginning to suspect otherwise now.

People like to act like they don't/can't understand, so they can ridicule things -- which was their intent in the first place.
DogmaHunter said:
I'ld expect such level of disagreement if the 3 pizza's were islam, judaism an christianity. But all 3 pizza's here are christian.
Praise God!

That means we're saved, and we'll all ... as the song says ... understand it by and by.
DogmaHunter said:
So... yeah.
[clears throat] Okay.
DogmaHunter said:
I guess that's why all the denominations exist, at most 1 of which can be correct. Statistics suggest however, that the most likely outcome is that all are wrong - since they all make the same type of claims.
Good for statistics.

What do statistics say about our total agreements?

Pessimism makes for better discussions though, doesn't it?
DogmaHunter said:
You are very skilled in shifting the focus from embarassing topics.
And the ridicule just keeps on flowing, doesn't it?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,672
51,419
Guam
✟4,896,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
How 'bout this. You guys talk it out, tell me how Genesis really went down, then offer what advances in technology we can make as a result.
Peer review bothers you, does it?
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟143,395.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Until then, we will just have to wait for the "unity of the Spirit."Why?

While you potentially follow a false religion?
Isn't that a problem in your worldview?

That's to be expected in a fallen world with a Devil that is an expert at clouding issues.

Is the bible the work of the devil?
No? Then what does that dude have to do with it?

What do you want us to do?

You could start by drawing the obvious conclusion. Or, if it's not clear yet, at least investigate honestly why there are as many interpretations as there are bible-believing christians.


Now you're starting to bring ridicule into the conversation.

What's ridiculous about stating that if you have 3 mutually exclusive claims, at least 2 must be false?

Praise God!
That means we're saved,

Does it? Really?
So, do all christians of all denominations think that all christians of all the other denominations get to be saved?

You probably can't admit it here because of the forum rules... but many here have made it quite clear that they don't consider certain denominations to be "real christians".

Also, if you are all saved anyway, simply because you are "christians" in the broadest sense........

Then why does any of this science stuff matter?

There are christians (more then a billion of them: catholics) who have no problems with evolution theory whatsoever.

So, since you believe all christians are saved anyway - regardless of their interpretation of the bible - then none of this should matter.

Then you have no reason to dogmatically attach yourself to a certain interpretation. Then you have no reason for your "science can take a hike" nonsense.

Since, by your very own admission in this post, interpretations don't matter. You're saved anyway. Good job throwing bricks in a glass house.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,672
51,419
Guam
✟4,896,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
While you potentially follow a false religion?
Oh, that's aurum.

That's solid aurum.

Zero to sixty in four posts.
DogmaHunter said:
Isn't that a problem in your worldview?
Unity of the Spirit is not a problem in my worldview.

It can't come soon enough.
DogmaHunter said:
Is the bible the work of the devil?
(Here we go, folks.)

No.
DogmaHunter said:
Correct ... no.
DogmaHunter said:
Then what does that dude have to do with it?
No comment ... since I think you're fishing for ammo now.
DogmaHunter said:
You could start by drawing the obvious conclusion.
If it isn't the Devil or our limited knowledge this side of Heaven, then please tell me what this "obvious conclusion" is.

I'm dying to know.
DogmaHunter said:
Or, if it's not clear yet, at least investigate honestly why there are as many interpretations as there are bible-believing christians.
I no longer need to investigate.

I don't know how old you are, but I'll go out on a limb and say I've been studying doctrine since you were in diapers.

(And off the record, you read the Bible from cover-to-cover in a week???)
DogmaHunter said:
What's ridiculous about stating that if you have 3 mutually exclusive claims, at least 2 must be false?
Someone using it to ridicule someone who is trying to explain it, that's what.
DogmaHunter said:
Does it? Really?
"Christian" was the word you used.

If you want me to agree with you that they're all Christians, then I'm going to agree that they're all saved.

You are the one who called them Christians.

Do you want me to agree or not?

Or are you trying to get me in trouble?
DogmaHunter said:
So, do all christians of all denominations think that all christians of all the other denominations get to be saved?
You should have thought of that before you called us all "Christians."
DogmaHunter said:
You probably can't admit it here because of the forum rules... but many here have made it quite clear that they don't consider certain denominations to be "real christians".
Except you ... right?

You think they're all Christians?

Good ... that greatly simplifies our discussion, doesn't it?
DogmaHunter said:
Also, if you are all saved anyway, simply because you are "christians" in the broadest sense........
Are you backtracking from your own term, now?
DogmaHunter said:
Then why does any of this science stuff matter?
Beats me.

As far as my salvation is concerned, science can take a hike.
DogmaHunter said:
There are christians (more then a billion of them: catholics) who have no problems with evolution theory whatsoever.
So?

They're content, as we Independent Fundamental Baptists are, to believe: IN THE BEGINNING, GOD.
DogmaHunter said:
So, since you believe all christians are saved anyway - regardless of their interpretation of the bible - then none of this should matter.
Then why are we having this conversation?
DogmaHunter said:
Then you have no reason to dogmatically attach yourself to a certain interpretation.
You're quite wrong there.

I'll answer to God for what I believe, and, as Jesus said:[VERSE=John 4:24,KJV]God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.[/VERSE]
DogmaHunter said:
Then you have no reason for your "science can take a hike" nonsense.
Why is that?

If science says the Ark wouldn't float, therefore the Ark wasn't built ... okay with you if I claim science can take a hike?
DogmaHunter said:
Since, by your very own admission in this post, interpretations don't matter.
I don't know where you came to that conclusion.

Sanctification is a BIG part of the Christian life, and sanctification cannot occur without a Standard for faith and practice.
DogmaHunter said:
You're saved anyway.
That's right: I'm saved.

'Anyway' doesn't excuse me from growing in grace.
DogmaHunter said:
Good job throwing bricks in a glass house.
Good job fishing.
 
Upvote 0

HitchSlap

PROUDLY PRIMATE
Aug 6, 2012
14,723
5,468
✟281,096.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
But from an atheist's POV, that should be a major blow to atheism, shouldn't it?

To a person who doesn't believe pizza exists, what does it matter if three people are arguing over an anchovy pizza, pepperoni pizza, or four-cheese pizza?

Even if each one of us contends that the other two pizzas don't exist, we still believe in pizza.Again, from an atheist's perspective, that should be an option that is available to believers.

The fact that we're even discussing whose doctrine is right and whose doctrine is wrong is an exercise in non-atheist thinking.What should be even stranger is believing in God at all, from an atheist's POV ... shouldn't it?
Wait, but pizzas exist.

If you wanted your analogy to be cohesive, then you should use, say, leprechauns and how tall are they really?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Then it is useless to use the book, since in that case you have nothing to offer to argue against the interpretation of say, the catholic church.

Either way, you'ld have to look beyond the book at the actual world then.
So why even read the book if you wish to know how the world came to be? Since you say yourself that this book does not contain that knowledge... then you'll have to find that knowledge elsewhere.

So why does the bible then even come up in this topic?

In order to gain knowledge, one needs to read textbook or to do experiment. But what to read and what to do is a more serious question.
The Bible is a GUIDE to gain knowledge. It is ultimately precious.
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟143,395.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
In order to gain knowledge, one needs to read textbook or to do experiment. But what to read and what to do is a more serious question. The Bible is a GUIDE to gain knowledge. It is ultimately precious.

Is it required to gain knowledge?

And if the bible is a "guide" to gain knowledge, then how come you, justatruthseeker and dad (and many, many, many others) were all "guided" to contradicting claims?

What does it say about the bible as a "guide", if it's evidently quite hard to find 2 people who were "guided" to non-contradictory claims?

It seems to me that it doesn't do a good job as a "guide" at all then.
A good guide would lead most people to the same spot.
A bad guide would lead most people to different places.

Wouldn't you agree?


Science will NOT get you far enough.

What do you mean?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Is it required to gain knowledge?

And if the bible is a "guide" to gain knowledge, then how come you, justatruthseeker and dad (and many, many, many others) were all "guided" to contradicting claims?

What does it say about the bible as a "guide", if it's evidently quite hard to find 2 people who were "guided" to non-contradictory claims?

This exactly demonstrates the function of this superb Guide. It guides every faithful person to pursuit his own special knowledge. Tell me if you know any better kind of guide in the world of knowledge. One Guidebook, for any level of knowledge, any disciplines of knowledge, and for people of any age and personality.

Don't stick on this point, it is getting bored.
 
Upvote 0

juvenissun

... and God saw that it was good.
Apr 5, 2007
25,446
803
71
Chicago
✟121,700.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Science will NOT get you far enough.

It means you need something better than science to give you "better" knowledge.
For example, read the Bible WILL make you write better genetic algorithm. It is not just better, it would be revolutionarily better.
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟45,617.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
It means you need something better than science to give you "better" knowledge.
For example, read the Bible WILL make you write better genetic algorithm. It is not just better, it would be revolutionarily better.
...What are you talking about? That's one crazy claim you've got there, buddy.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
I would predict that after the cataclysm that destroyed the dinosaurs - the fossils should all be found piled together - exactly as observed. That all will be found as evolutionists say (just happened to be grazing by a stream when a flood came along, etc., etc.) to avoid that darkness and the deep that came about.
Show us the data to back this up. That's how science works

Show us how the fossils are ALL found piled together.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,672
51,419
Guam
✟4,896,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It means you need something better than science to give you "better" knowledge.
For example, read the Bible WILL make you write better genetic algorithm. It is not just better, it would be revolutionarily better.
Are you talking about the acquisition of epignosis (full knowledge) through faith in Jesus Christ?[VERSE=Ephesians 4:13,KJV]Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:[/VERSE]
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.