Quran and Conflict

FutureAndAHope

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As I stated in my last post I have started to read the Quran in detail. I noticed there are a lot of passages which encourage Muslims to fight their enemies. To the Muslims, who are these enemies? In what way are you supposed to fight them.

It is clear from my reading you are asked to fight against unbelievers.

Yet look at all the terror and mess that this has caused for the world. Should you not rather repent and follow the command of Jesus, which was to "Love your enemies and do good to them", and "bless those who curse you".

Is not Islam a devil in disguise. Giving some light, yet asking you to murder those who disagree with you.
 

smaneck

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As I stated in my last post I have started to read the Quran in detail. I noticed there are a lot of passages which encourage Muslims to fight their enemies.

Here is one of the main verses calling for jihad:

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter." (2:291-2)

I would say that the definition of 'enemy' in this context is anyone who has started a war of aggression against Muslims, or expelled them from their homes and persecuted them.

It is clear from my reading you are asked to fight against unbelievers.

Not simply because they are unbelievers, but because they are attacking, expelling and persecuting believers.

Yet look at all the terror and mess that this has caused for the world. Should you not rather repent and follow the command of Jesus, which was to "Love your enemies and do good to them", and "bless those who curse you".

You realize that Christians have killed more Muslims than the other way around?

Is not Islam a devil in disguise. Giving some light, yet asking you to murder those who disagree with you.

"Islam" does not ask anyone to murder those who disagree with them. It allows them to fight against oppression, nothing more. If Christians were actually blessing their enemies instead of bombing them, they would have a right to criticize Muslims.
 
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smaneck

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Islam is a beautiful peaceful religion. Those who fear Islam do so because they know nothing about it and humanity tends to fear what is unknown

As Will McCants put it in his recent article which I posted a link to elsewhere:

"Muslim political behavior has varied greatly throughout history. Some Muslims have cited Scripture to justify violence, and some have cited it to justify peace. If Scripture is a constant but the behavior of its followers is not, then one should look elsewhere to explain why some Muslims engage in terrorism."
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Ok ... how do you suggest that we deal with an issue like ISIS. They are behaving very barbaric. The only reason why the world is bombing them is due to the fact they are committing atrocities. How would you suggest that we deal with such an issue? As a Muslim how would you suggest us Christians show love?
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Ok ... how do you suggest that we deal with an issue like ISIS. They are behaving very barbaric. The only reason why the world is bombing them is due to the fact they are committing atrocities. How would you suggest that we deal with such an issue? As a Muslim how would you suggest us Christians show love?


How to deal with DAESH (ISIS)? Probably the same way that the other Muslim countries are dealing with them, by fighting them on the battlefield, you cannot negotiate with an organization like DAESH.
 
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Zstar

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Not intending to call you out by my post smaneck, by the way – perceiving your concerned about misrepresentation of Islam and Muslims. What you say makes a lot of sense and even us Zoroastrians say…

It is the learned only, who can teach
The doctrines of religion true and pure,
A good and spotless mind alone can reach
The glorious portals of high heaven sure,
It is the pious souls that truths allure,
They think, they speak, they do whate'er is right,
For right all labour, hardship they endure,
Before the sacred fire's inspiring light,
They swear for truth eternal they will fight.

Defense of one’s self in body or mind - or their homeland towards aggressors who seek to take it over is a given – if one’s homeland is better than theirs and they seek to take it for gain or persecute others who live in a different place it’s a whole another scenario.

I believe in freedom of Religion, Islam or whatever but when one starts harming others or the innocents caught in cross-fire I assert they have no Religion other than being an Adversary.
 
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smaneck

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Ok ... how do you suggest that we deal with an issue like ISIS. They are behaving very barbaric. The only reason why the world is bombing them is due to the fact they are committing atrocities. How would you suggest that we deal with such an issue? As a Muslim how would you suggest us Christians show love?

I'm not a Muslim, I'm a Baha'i. I agree that ISIS has to be stopped. And more than 95% of Muslims would agree with you. My point is that you can't tell Muslims they should be turning the other cheek if Christians in practice aren't willing to do so.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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smaneck said - "Muslims they should be turning the other cheek if Christians in practice aren't willing to do so". I don't see what you mean, I personally are willing to turn the other cheek. You don't see me burning down any Mosques, or killing Muslims.

As for groups like ISIS I am open to showing them love. But look at it this way. If a man was in a room raping a woman, and killing her family, holding a gun. I would not be a human being to stand up with my mates and shoot him dead. ISIS are raping, killing, murdering. It is unloving to not stand against it.
 
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Robban

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smaneck said - "Muslims they should be turning the other cheek if Christians in practice aren't willing to do so". I don't see what you mean, I personally are willing to turn the other cheek. You don't see me burning down any Mosques, or killing Muslims.

As for groups like ISIS I am open to showing them love. But look at it this way. If a man was in a room raping a woman, and killing her family, holding a gun. I would not be a human being to stand up with my mates and shoot him dead. ISIS are raping, killing, murdering. It is unloving to not stand against it.

My understanding of "Turning the other cheek" is not about looking the other way,

It is about willingness to learn, or allow to be corrected when wrong, a slap on the right cheek would then mean, correction,
if one is willing to learn, "Turn the other cheek" so as to allow for more.

Isis need to turn the other cheek as do certain countries with their interventions.
 
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Arthra

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For me the context is very important.. In the case of Jesus and His times there were conditions where the Romans occupied Judea and the people were looking for a "messiah" to overthrow the Romans. Jesus suggested to the people to pay their taxes... Go the extra mile when carrying their burdens and turn the other cheek if slapped. Most of the Jews turned away from Jesus and opted to follow Zealots and later attempted open rebellion.

In the case of Prophet Muhammad it was different... The early Muslims endured six or seven years of persecution from the pagan Meccans before they left Mecca for Medina.. The pagans attacked them and attempted to destroy them.. So defending the religion was permitted.
 
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Robban

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For me the context is very important.. In the case of Jesus and His times there were conditions where the Romans occupied Judea and the people were looking for a "messiah" to overthrow the Romans. Jesus suggested to the people to pay their taxes... Go the extra mile when carrying their burdens and turn the other cheek if slapped. Most of the Jews turned away from Jesus and opted to follow Zealots and later attempted open rebellion.

In the case of Prophet Muhammad it was different... The early Muslims endured six or seven years of persecution from the pagan Meccans before they left Mecca for Medina.. The pagans attacked them and attempted to destroy them.. So defending the religion was permitted.

In the context of Lamentations 3:30 there is no mention of an enemy or adversary,
"Let him offer his cheek to his smiter;
let him be filled with reproach."

So who is the "Smiter"?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Isis need to turn the other cheek as do certain countries with their interventions.

Yes. The good thing about the teaching of Jesus is at least it get us thinking about peace, and working in unity. Being told to love your enemies, causes us to strive towards a peaceful outcome.

The question has to be asked can ISIS be reasoned with? Would they be willing to have peace? What would that peace look like for them, and us. What about freedom for their slaves? Would allowing them to take root cause more harm in the long run.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Islam is a beautiful peaceful religion. Those who fear Islam do so because they know nothing about it and humanity tends to fear what is unknown

Hmmm .... I have to disagree with this one. Is wife beating beautiful?

Quran 4:34 Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Approximately 70% of all wars in the world involve Islamic Militancy.

For my reading of the Quran, Islam teaches some good things, like helping the needy, and orphans, yet it is aggressive, promoting violence, and allowing domestic abuse.

Truely think about this for more than one second, would the ture, loving God, tell us we can stike/beat our wives, it is sheer madness. Give up on praising Islam.
 
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Robban

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Yes. The good thing about the teaching of Jesus is at least it get us thinking about peace, and working in unity. Being told to love your enemies, causes us to strive towards a peaceful outcome.

The question has to be asked can ISIS be reasoned with? Would they be willing to have peace? What would that peace look like for them, and us. What about freedom for their slaves? Would allowing them to take root cause more harm in the long run.

I don,t have the answers.
Was thinking today that, if given a couple of more lifetimes I may be able to say,
"I,m starting to get the hang of it".

There is a lot of junk floating around under the heading "Relgion"

One thing for sure, raping, stealing and cutting off peoples heads should be on everyone,s
"Things not to do" list.
As for loving them, I dunno.
What,s love got to do with it?
 
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Arthra

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future and a hope wrote:

"Truely think about this for more than one second, would the ture, loving God, tell us we can stike/beat our wives, it is sheer madness. Give up on praising Islam."

I think you may be approaching your study of Qur'an from a prejudiced vantage point. I came across a commentary for the verse you quoted above (Qur'an 4:34) that should be noted:

To understand the true purport of this verse, it is essential to keep in mind verse 21 of al-Rum.

"Another of His signs is that He created out of you mates of your own kind so that you may find repose in them, and has instilled (ordained) love and kindness between you. Verily there are signs in this for those who reflect."


In many verses it has been ordained to, treat women with kindness and to speak to them gently.
The Holy Prophet said:
"Never beat Allah's handmaidens."
"The best of you is he who is kind to his wife."

There are also alternate translations of the Surih and aya selected by futureandahope such as the following:

bakhtiar4_34.jpg


- Laleh Bakhtiar
The Sublime Quran » In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate
 
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football5680

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Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24)

The enemies would be unbelievers. Christians and Jews have the option of living under Islamic subjugation but retaining their faith, while other unbelievers can either convert or die. ISIS has taken this command to the extreme and are enforcing it more rigidly than some other Muslim leaders in the past. They do not accept the Shia as true Muslims so all of them already have a death sentence for apostasy and they will also target Sunni Muslims who disagree with them.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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The Mulsum Quran does allows for the beating of a wife if they are disobedient. Below are recognised translations of this verse, followed by quotes from other Islamic sources that this hitting did occur.

The following quotes can be found in any Qur'an. See 4:34

Qur'an 4:34 Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great! Rodwell

Qur'an 4:34 Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. Dawood

Qur'an 4:34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. Pickthall

Qur'an 4:34 Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great. Arberry

Qur'an 4:34 Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. Shakir

Qur'an 4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). Ali

Here is a Hadith from Bukhari, vol. 7, # 715, that details Islamic wife beating:

"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah's messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow.""

Note Islamic women were suffering from beating more than their non muslum counterparts: "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!"



HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD

CHAPTER 709 ON BEATING WOMEN #2142

Umar reported the prophet as saying: "A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife".

HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF IBN-I-MAJAH

Like Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah also has a short chapter dedicated to the topic of wife beating.

#1985

Iyas b. ‘Abdullah, the son of Abu Dhubab reported that Allah’s Messenger said, "Do not beat the slave girls (women folk)." Then Umar visited the Holy Prophet and said, "Allah’s Messenger, women have become emboldened towards their husbands. So allow us to beat them. So, they were beaten (when permission was granted). upon this many groups of women went round the family of Muhammad. When it was morning, he, (the Holy Prophet), said, "Seventy women went round the family of Muhammad this night. Every woman was making a complaint against her spouse. You will not find them the best among you.



#1986

Ash’ath b. Qais is reported to have said, "One night Umar arranged a feast. When it was midnight, he got up and went towards his wife to beat her. I separated them both. When he went to bed, he said to me, "O Ash’ath, preserve from me a thing that I heard from Allah’s messenger. (These things are): A man will not be taken to task for beating his wife (for valid reasons) and do not sleep without observing witr prayer." I forgot the third (exhortation).

Mahummad was known to have hit his wives, himself.

Sahih Muslim #2127:

…When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'Aisha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?…

Sahih Muslim #3506:

Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported: Abu Bakr came and sought permission to see Allah's Messenger. He found people sitting at his door and none amongst them had been granted permission, but it was granted to Abu Bakr and he went in. Then came 'Umar and he sought permission and it was granted to him, and he found Allah's Apostle sitting sad and silent with his wives around him. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: I would say something which would make the Holy Prophet laugh, so he said: Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter of Kharija when she asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah's Messenger laughed and said: They are around me as you see, asking for extra money. Abu Bakr then got up went to 'Aisha and slapped her on the neck, and 'Umar stood up before Hafsa and slapped her saying: You ask Allah's Messenger which he does not possess. They said: By Allah, we do not ask Allah's Messenger for anything he does not possess….

So as you can see the Muslum religion encourages domestic violence against women. This is a terrible thing and should not be allowed to happen. Anyone in the Muslum faith should seriously consider what they are taught and believe.
 
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Masihi

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Not intending to call you out by my post smaneck, by the way – perceiving your concerned about misrepresentation of Islam and Muslims. What you say makes a lot of sense and even us Zoroastrians say…

It is the learned only, who can teach
The doctrines of religion true and pure,
A good and spotless mind alone can reach
The glorious portals of high heaven sure,
It is the pious souls that truths allure,
They think, they speak, they do whate'er is right,
For right all labour, hardship they endure,
Before the sacred fire's inspiring light,
They swear for truth eternal they will fight.

Defense of one’s self in body or mind - or their homeland towards aggressors who seek to take it over is a given – if one’s homeland is better than theirs and they seek to take it for gain or persecute others who live in a different place it’s a whole another scenario.

I believe in freedom of Religion, Islam or whatever but when one starts harming others or the innocents caught in cross-fire I assert they have no Religion other than being an Adversary.

So as you can see the Muslum religion encourages domestic violence against women. This is a terrible thing and should not be allowed to happen. Anyone in the Muslum faith should seriously consider what they are taught and believe.

As a minority in Islamic countries under shariah, I have no defense, no rights, and I cannot own my own land nor home. I cannot build a church and I cannot gather to worship with other Christians. My children cannot wear Christian jewelry and my daughter and wife must wear hijab, by force.

Looking at the events of Tunisia this past week and reading post #8, I was made to feel that Christians are now to blame because we have not shown muslims how to "turn the other cheek". As a Christian I feel stepped on, and the ridicule coming from posters on this thread is unbearable, a slap on my cheek.
 
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