Democracy in history

mindlight · Jun 26, 2015

Western Democracy appears to have been hyjacked by liberals and the rule of law has been undermined by immoral laws supporting abortion, euthanasia and other examples of decadence. Islamists believe they have a moral right to exterminate us based on the immorality of Western civilisation as todays bombings and decapitations demonstrate. It seems timely to reconsider the institution of democracy itself which is afterall an historically rare phenomena. I am starting to wonder at what examples we have of democracy which have actually worked. Athens was a slave owning society dominated by aristocrats with the vote. Britain in its nineteenth century prime was an empire again dominated by aristocrats and rich traders. American democracy was for much of its history based on slavery and is dominated by a class of the super rich to which access is increasingly denied. Where are the examples of truly democratic societies that have been growing , preaching Christianity and expressing this success in righteous laws , traditions and practices. It seems to me that mob rule has never been a standard worth aiming for except in rare circumstances of majority Christian populations. Is Democracy no longer the default Christian political ideal? It seems to me it has rarely if ever been the way of the world in history.

Chicken Little · Jun 26, 2015

molested by the fringes.

LionL · Jun 26, 2015

mindlight said:
Western Democracy appears to have been hyjacked by liberals.

Thank goodness!
Without those 'liberals' we'd still have child labour, slavery, transportation to the colonies, no votes for those who own no land, workhouses for the poor, no state education, no trade unions, no state pension, no unemployment benefit, no votes for women etc....

mindlight · Jun 27, 2015

LionL said:
Thank goodness!
Without those 'liberals' we'd still have child labour, slavery, transportation to the colonies, no votes for those who own no land, workhouses for the poor, no state education, no trade unions, no state pension, no unemployment benefit, no votes for women etc....

Medieval Christendom had no slaves and it was Christians that led the fight against slavery, racism in empire and also supported gender equality and initiatives to lift up the poor and give them a chance. Maybe these guys were called liberals in their time but their motivation patterns and interpretive matrices were informed by the Christian faith. That is not true of modern liberalism and freedoms of speech and religion are increasingly under threat. Also once more the barbarians gather at the gate convinced that we have grown soft and decadent and are ready for the picking.

LionL · Jun 27, 2015

mindlight said:
Medieval Christendom had no slaves

No, it had surfs instead. Slaves in all but name. Not allowed to work for anyone else but their 'master', not even allowed to marry without his consent. Not exactly free.

mindlight said:
and it was Christians that led the fight against slavery, racism in empire and also supported gender equality and initiatives to lift up the poor and give them a chance.

Some were Christians, granted, but by no means all. Those conservatives who wanted to retain the status quo were all Christians though.

mindlight said:
Maybe these guys were called liberals in their time but their motivation patterns and interpretive matrices were informed by the Christian faith.

Not strictly true. Here in the UK at least our social advances were won by the socialist left, a good proportion of which were atheists. Our reforms (abolition of slavery, social security, state healthcare for example) came much earlier than those of say America.

Chicken Little · Jun 27, 2015

and you are so proud of your atheist thieving state. it was European countries that had to have all those 'robin hoods' and wars for a reason.. and it will again to just feed it population.

yes well we don't believe in thieves or in a state that is a thief either .
we believe in free will and a just church and in charity and in personal responsibility , not the needy greedy state and it's ideal of a being robin hood to give to the greedy and to feed only what it wants to and to keep people dependent. . so we now need robinhoods to save us from our robinhoods.

I was cracking up the other day when was at church and everyone was applauding how sister ??? finally got on disability. I had wonder if she has even asked for prayer to be healed from her
"condition" and why should she the state is now paying her to stay sick. so good luck with that !

LionL · Jun 27, 2015

Chicken Little said:
and you are so proud of your atheist thieving state...
we believe in free will and a just church and in charity and in personal responsibility.

Is that why you were so much later than us to abolish slavery and why you still had a state of apartheid just 50 years ago?
The state does not thieve - it's the filthy rich who do that.

SoldierOfTheKing · Jun 27, 2015

mindlight said:
Western Democracy appears to have been hyjacked by liberals and the rule of law has been undermined by immoral laws supporting abortion, euthanasia and other examples of decadence. Islamists believe they have a moral right to exterminate us based on the immorality of Western civilisation as todays bombings and decapitations demonstrate. It seems timely to reconsider the institution of democracy itself which is afterall an historically rare phenomena. I am starting to wonder at what examples we have of democracy which have actually worked. Athens was a slave owning society dominated by aristocrats with the vote. Britain in its nineteenth century prime was an empire again dominated by aristocrats and rich traders. American democracy was for much of its history based on slavery and is dominated by a class of the super rich to which access is increasingly denied. Where are the examples of truly democratic societies that have been growing , preaching Christianity and expressing this success in righteous laws , traditions and practices. It seems to me that mob rule has never been a standard worth aiming for except in rare circumstances of majority Christian populations. Is Democracy no longer the default Christian political ideal? It seems to me it has rarely if ever been the way of the world in history.

The quality of a democracy is only as good as its people. The examples that you mentioned, ancient Athens, the British Empire, the earlier years of the United States, are the best examples of functioning democracy, and they are exceptional cases. Democracy demands extraordinary things of ordinary people.

I'm also wondering how democracy was ever a Christian political ideal. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture or historic church teaching to support the notion that democracy is a superior form of government. Christianity certainly doesn't teach any sort of mystical rightness of majorities over minorities.

LionL said:
Thank goodness!
Without those 'liberals' we'd still have child labour, slavery, transportation to the colonies, no votes for those who own no land, workhouses for the poor, no state education, no trade unions, no state pension, no unemployment benefit, no votes for women etc....

In addition to what mindlight has pointed out, I'd like to add that that state pensions were first implemented in Germany under Bismarck, who was certainly no liberal.

mindlight · Jun 27, 2015

LionL said:
No, it had surfs instead. Slaves in all but name. Not allowed to work for anyone else but their 'master', not even allowed to marry without his consent. Not exactly free.

Serfdom was a step up from slavery but I would not want to be either. A serf did have a degree of freedom, could not be worked on a Sunday, could own things , did not have to do anything immoral....

http://www.vlib.us/medieval/lectures/serfdom.html

I am not advocating feudalism merely pointing out that Christianity from Phineas on has had an aversion to the institution and this indeed echoed the Jews tendency to free Hebrew slaves at Jubilee. The Atlantic slave trade was originally justified in terms of these people being pagans and Muslims by the Portugese because owning Christian slaves would have got them into trouble with the church. In the Americas freed from the churches scrutiny (Inquisition) there was considerable abuse of the system and many slaves were Christians.

Some were Christians, granted, but by no means all. Those conservatives who wanted to retain the status quo were all Christians though.

No slavery was abolished because of William Wilberforce and the Clapam Sect in the UK though it took America a while to catch up on that. The defence of slavery mainly focused on questions of wealth and also security against the French. But slave revolts in Haiti and the general inefficiency of the system and the moral outrage cultivated by Christians won the day.

Not strictly true. Here in the UK at least our social advances were won by the socialist left, a good proportion of which were atheists. Our reforms (abolition of slavery, social security, state healthcare for example) came much earlier than those of say America.

Actually social security came through Lloyd George (liberal). Christian socialism and the Fabian society were heavily populated by Christians in the formative years. Writers like Dickens who articulated the misery and poverty of vast numbers in that era were also Christians. The Suffragettes also acted on views articulated by Jane Austin on the mal treatment of women. Atheists were late comers to these discussions and brought alot of baggage of their own eg Marxism and the politics of envy that characterized Britains Trade Union movement.

mindlight · Jun 27, 2015

SoldierOfTheKing said:
The quality of a democracy is only as good as its people. The examples that you mentioned, ancient Athens, the British Empire, the earlier years of the United States, are the best examples of functioning democracy, and they are exceptional cases. Democracy demands extraordinary things of ordinary people.

These were all examples of globally competitive societies that produced wonders but none of them were properly democratic. All were racist, sexist and 2 depended on slavery for them to work.

I'm also wondering how democracy was ever a Christian political ideal. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture or historic church teaching to support the notion that democracy is a superior form of government. Christianity certainly doesn't teach any sort of mystical rightness of majorities over minorities.

The inherent dignity , worth and potential of any human being is the Christian principle here along with a respect for freewill. But within variable limits this dignity and freedom has been respected in other forms of society also. Having the freedom and opportunity to live the Christian life and aspire to what is true, pure, noble and excellent can occur in other political systems also.

LionL · Jun 27, 2015

mindlight said:
Actually social security came through Lloyd George (liberal).

Yes, because of pressure from the left whose discontent was growing. It was only 10 years later that the Liberal Party lost its power for the last time and UK politics became a two way tussle between the rich, middle class and predominantly Christian Conservatives who opposed the welfare state and fought against it tooth and nail, and the Labour Party, a socialist party who took the place Liberals and brought in more reforms which the Liberals never did - the NHS being the main one.

Chicken Little · Jun 28, 2015

SoldierOfTheKing said:
The quality of a democracy is only as good as its people. The examples that you mentioned, ancient Athens, the British Empire, the earlier years of the United States, are the best examples of functioning democracy, and they are exceptional cases. Democracy demands extraordinary things of ordinary people.

I'm also wondering how democracy was ever a Christian political ideal. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture or historic church teaching to support the notion that democracy is a superior form of government. Christianity certainly doesn't teach any sort of mystical rightness of majorities over minorities.

In addition to what mindlight has pointed out, I'd like to add that that state pensions were first implemented in Germany under Bismarck, who was certainly no liberal.

well there was a tiny golden age where the lawful were lawful. I think it was about 200-400 years before it was usurped. it is this tiny age that Jesus is claiming his right to build a nation from that age . though not completely democratic because it was a hybrid between many concepts. but it was LAWFUL and everyone in the 10 kingdom abided by the laws the 10 kings made and they made a blood covenant with a BULL . it is that age that Plato was trying to describe. It was also called the Attalid kings age. Or the "Great Kings".

so it was more like England and 6 nations are . so kind has elements of a all monarchy theocracy democracy .

But voting in the Biggest liar isn't working so well either. and laws no one keeps just creates more laws no one keeps except to put others in jail.
the first age would have worked best for every one if only if there was no usurpers and lawless around . see?
seems he will be adding two more concepts to what the ten had.
SO maybe he will add Judah ( the monarchy) and Levi ( theocracy= a lawful education )to make 12.

SoldierOfTheKing · Jun 28, 2015

mindlight said:
These were all examples of globally competitive societies that produced wonders but none of them were properly democratic. All were racist, sexist and 2 depended on slavery for them to work.

Homophopic as well...

mindlight · Jun 29, 2015

LionL said:
Yes, because of pressure from the left whose discontent was growing.

No not really. Most of the working class voted Tory or Liberal up to World War 1. Labour did not really matter till after the war. There were good economic and practical political reasons to introduce pensions, better education etc and the rationale for these improvements came with Tory or Whig voices in the main.

It was only 10 years later that the Liberal Party lost its power for the last time and UK politics became a two way tussle between the rich, middle class and predominantly Christian Conservatives who opposed the welfare state and fought against it tooth and nail, and the Labour Party, a socialist party who took the place Liberals and brought in more reforms which the Liberals never did - the NHS being the main one.

You define this in terms of later preoccupations. The primary reason why much of the working class deserted the establishment parties ( and especially the Liberals) was to do with the handling of the war, the vast human cost of it and a loss of faith in the ruling class. But the Tories dominated the 30s and up to 45 even despite that. The second world war shattered empire once and for all and its vote winning jingoism and brought the economic condition, health and general wellbeing of the masses to the front of politics.

Personally I think the NHS for all its faults is a great achievement and far more efficient than the chaos of American health provision for instance. Christianly would defend it more on grounds of good stewardship of economic and human resource than of human compassion which in my view has been dampened by its existence and the institutionalisation of care. It removed a big worry from most peoples lives and allowed them to get on with improving those lives. That said abortion or sex changes at tax payers expense is deeply immoral.

mindlight · Jun 29, 2015

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Homophopic as well...

The racism of the empire generation of my grandfather always struck me as rather silly. The suffragettes campaigned and won in the last days of empire but arguably only after its colossal masculine appeal had been shattered by the terrible cost of WW1. Marital fidelity was also a casuality of both empowering women, losing Christian faith and the brokeness of the war situation. I see the gay movement as the end result of a long moral decline that came from the shattering of a vision of society that has not really been replaced by anything better or indeed with a stronger hold on the popular imagination. Britain and indeed the whole Western world desperately needs a Christian revival.

LionL · Jun 30, 2015

mindlight said:
No not really. Most of the working class voted Tory or Liberal up to World War 1.,/quote]
Most of the working class weren't allowed to vote until after World War One, and those who could (men of a certain age) had only enjoyed the privilege for a short while.
Votes for non-land owners came due to a fear among the establishment of riot and revolution after happenings overseas and because of the rise of the left and the trade unions.

mindlight said:

The primary reason why much of the working class deserted the establishment parties ( and especially the Liberals) was to do with the handling of the war.

Click to expand...

A good reason, but not the main one.
There were all out strikes in the 1930s because of the hunger being suffered due to a lack of benefits for the poor and the unemployed. All of this in a Christian society. The welfare state put an end to such unfairness - or at least vastly reduced it. Churchill's Tories were amazed to lose the post war election. Victory, they thought, guaranteed success. As it turned out, Labour's promises of a fairer society were what the people wanted and they won by a landslide.

mindlight said:

Personally I think the NHS for all its faults is a great achievement and far more efficient than the chaos of American health provision for instance. Christianly would defend it more on grounds of good stewardship of economic and human resource than of human compassion which in my view has been dampened by its existence and the institutionalisation of care. It removed a big worry from most peoples lives and allowed them to get on with improving those lives. That said abortion or sex changes at tax payers expense is deeply immoral.

Click to expand...

I can agree with you on that - for the most part.

Democracy in history

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