Messianics converting to Judaism

Open Heart · May 30, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
I think anyone called to follow the Law of God should try to follow it ...

it is not pragmatic or truthful to claim ancestry you are not able to factually prove, but converts to Judaism should be allowed to call themselves Jewish in some sense of the term. I think converts or descendants of converts are counted as Jews relative to Right of Return.

We do in fact have a real problem here that needs to be dealt with. On the one hand, it is true that the rule of thumb for Gentiles is that they do not need to observe Jewish law, and Paul was correct in discouraging the from doing so.

ON THE OTHER HAND, there is a small minority of Gentiles who are drawn to Israel in a unique way, who wish to come under the covenant, and who push for it despite being discouraged from doing so. THEY SHOULD NOT BE TURNED AWAY.

For such gentiles, there should be the option of conversion to Judaism, adoption into Israel. Even for messianics. I know our Jewish friends are going to be offended by my opinion, and I regret making a stand against them. However, I don't believe that belief in Yeshua is wrong or that it should be an obstacle to conversion.

Conversion to Judaism involves a great deal of time in the study of the culture, history, halacha, and language of the Jewish people, and then you must be passed by a Beit Din (court of Rabbis).

Currently, UMJC offers such a conversion. This conversion is NOT to messianism. It is to Judaism. Once you go through it, if you fill out a form that asks for your religion, you state "Judaism." It is not accepted by the other branches of Judaism. But then, Reform Judaism's conversions are not accepted by the Orthodox, foreign conversions are not accepted by the Rabbinate in Israel, etc. You can read more about this at the website of the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council's site on Conversions:
http://ourrabbis.org/main/articles/on-conversion-mainmenu-32

Again, this is not the usual thing for Gentiles. I go along with the Hashivenu idea that for the overwhelming number of Gentile believers in Yeshua, their place is in the churches. But we must accomodate the exceptions as well.

Hoshiyya · May 30, 2015

There is a small number of people who want to keep the law as they understand it, end of story. They are like cats, they cannot be herded or put into an organization. They don't know anything about unity, but they persist and seem to grow in numbers nevertheless.

"Paul was correct in discouraging the [gentiles from keeping the law]. "

What Bible are you reading ?

I wish Paul was more clear in being pro-Torah, but ultimately, to read him any other way is to contradict the rest of the Bible. If Paul was not pro-Torah, I don't think he could possibly be considered Biblical or Inspired.

yonah_mishael · May 30, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
"Paul was correct in discouraging the [gentiles from keeping the law]. "

What Bible are you reading ?

I think he's reading the same NT that I read.

Hoshiyya · May 30, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
I think he's reading the same NT that I read.

Read the rest of my post ....

yonah_mishael · May 30, 2015

I don't really believe that Paul being inspired or biblical is a question. Some of his writings (and many that he didn't write but someone wrote in his name) ended up in the NT. Therefore, they are "biblical," whether any of us likes it or not. His being in the Bible was determined ultimately by Christians who didn't believe in keeping Torah, so it should not surprise anyone if he really was against Torah observance for believers.

Hoshiyya · May 30, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
I don't really believe that Paul being inspired or biblical is a question. Some of his writings (and many that he didn't write but someone wrote in his name) ended up in the NT. Therefore, they are "biblical," whether any of us likes it or not. His being in the Bible was determined ultimately by Christians who didn't believe in keeping Torah, so it should not surprise anyone if he really was against Torah observance for believers.

Forget the author, then. The point is we, the Theists, have this book and we have these writings that contain certain words. We impute spiritual significance to them. We want the words to not contradict. We want these words to which we feel drawn to be consistent and conform to certain standards of eloquence and logic. We feel a personal connection to a spiritual force that is in some way connected to the Bible.

We weren't all raised to keep Torah. Many of us were drawn to Torah later in life. And those of us who cannot reconcile the Pauline writings (regardless of who wrote them) with Torah (regardless of who wrote it) are probably right to cut Paul from their canon. I personally think Paul can be reconciled with the Torah, but I know that it is futile to try to convince most people of that.

Lulav · May 30, 2015

Open Heart said:
We do in fact have a real problem here that needs to be dealt with. On the one hand, it is true that the rule of thumb for Gentiles is that they do not need to observe Gentile law, and Paul was correct in discouraging the from doing so.

I'm not going to comment on the rest until I make something clear. What I highlighted, is that what you meant to post?

yonah_mishael · May 30, 2015

I think he meant “Jewish law.”

Open Heart · May 30, 2015

Lulav said:
I'm not going to comment on the rest until I make something clear. What I highlighted, is that what you meant to post?

NO> Thank you for catching it. I have to go back and edit that right away. I was having a senior moment. LOL

Open Heart · May 30, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
I think he meant “Jewish law.”

Right. I had no brain that afternoon.

Yeshua HaDerekh · May 30, 2015

Yeshua said "Love the Lord with all of your heart, soul, mind and spirit. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself." For on these both hang all of the Law and the Prophets.

Open Heart · May 30, 2015

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Yeshua said "Love the Lord with all of your heart, soul, mind and spirit. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself." For on these both hang all of the Law and the Prophets.

And this relates to the topic how?

Lulav · May 30, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
I think he meant “Jewish law.”

Who's 'he', are you speaking of OpenHeart? I'm pretty sure she's a woman.

And I wanted to hear it from her to make sure. Surprised no one else caught that though. :mmh:

Lulav · May 30, 2015

Open Heart said:
We do in fact have a real problem here that needs to be dealt with. On the one hand, it is true that the rule of thumb for Gentiles is that they do not need to observe Jewish law, and Paul was correct in discouraging the from doing so.

ON THE OTHER HAND, there is a small minority of Gentiles who are drawn to Israel in a unique way, who wish to come under the covenant, and who push for it despite being discouraged from doing so. THEY SHOULD NOT BE TURNED AWAY.

For such gentiles, there should be the option of conversion to Judaism, adoption into Israel. Even for messianics. I know our Jewish friends are going to be offended by my opinion, and I regret making a stand against them. However, I don't believe that belief in Yeshua is wrong or that it should be an obstacle to conversion.

Conversion to Judaism involves a great deal of time in the study of the culture, history, halacha, and language of the Jewish people, and then you must be passed by a Beit Din (court of Rabbis).

Currently, UMJC offers such a conversion. This conversion is NOT to messianism. It is to Judaism. Once you go through it, if you fill out a form that asks for your religion, you state "Judaism." It is not accepted by the other branches of Judaism. But then, Reform Judaism's conversions are not accepted by the Orthodox, foreign conversions are not accepted by the Rabbinate in Israel, etc. You can read more about this at the website of the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council's site on Conversions:
http://ourrabbis.org/main/articles/on-conversion-mainmenu-32

Again, this is not the usual thing for Gentiles. I go along with the Hashivenu idea that for the overwhelming number of Gentile believers in Yeshua, their place is in the churches. But we must accomodate the exceptions as well.

OK, so I am familiar with the MJ conversion, what is the question here? I agree that most Gentiles should go back to their churches and look for entertainment or 'dose of the spirit' elsewhere, but as you said there are those whom my MJ Rabbi called having the spirit of Ruth that should be accomodated.

But really I believe if you are going to join Israel you should be under the same house rules, otherwise you are just the unwanted redheaded stepchild that has no place anywhere.

Yeshua HaDerekh · May 30, 2015

Open Heart said:
And this relates to the topic how?

Read the last sentence, that's how...

Open Heart · May 30, 2015

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Read the last sentence, that's how...

Jews have our Law, Gentiles have their law. Again, how does this relate to the topic of the need for conversion for those messianic gentiles who have a rare affinity for Israel and draw to the Mosaic covenant?

Open Heart · May 30, 2015

Lulav said:
But really I believe if you are going to join Israel you should be under the same house rules, otherwise you are just the unwanted redheaded stepchild that has no place anywhere.

I agree. I think this is why UMJC only converts to Judaism those messianics gentiles who have shown themselves to be well acquainted with Jewish culture, history, and language and who already have a history or being obedient to certain standards of halacha (see the rabbinical council's Standards http://ourrabbis.org/main/halakhah-mainmenu-26/introduction-mainmenu-27 )

Yeshua HaDerekh · May 30, 2015

Open Heart said:
Jews have our Law, Gentiles have their law. Again, how does this relate to the topic of the need for conversion for those messianic gentiles who have a rare affinity for Israel and draw to the Mosaic covenant?

The "need"? Are they not already grafted in? Again we come to define "Jew"....according to the Rabbis, a messianic Jew or gentile who believes in Yeshua can not be a Jew. How does your question relate to this? Maybe I am missing your point?

Open Heart · May 30, 2015

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
The "need"? Are they not already grafted in? Again we come to define "Jew"....according to the Rabbis, a messianic Jew or gentile who believes in Yeshua can not be a Jew. How does your question relate to this? Maybe I am missing your point?

Yeah you are missing my point, so maybe I need to back up and define a few things.

Jew: one born of a Jewish mom or having converted to Judaism
Messianic Jew: A Jew who believes in Yeshua and has joined the messianic movement or who otherwise self identifies as a Messianic Jew.
Christian: one who has come to believe in Yeshua and who through baptism has become part of the Church, the Body of Christ. Some Christians are Jews, and some Christians are gentiles. Gentile Christians are grafted onto Israel. This does not make them Israel, just as a peach tree grafted onto a plum root does NOT make it a plum tree -- but the better root system will cause them to bear better fruit.
Messianic Gentile: a Gentile believer in Yeshua (sometimes claiming to be Christian othertimes not) who has attached themselves to a Messianic community. Most of these are confident in their skins as gentiles. However, there are a minority who are confused about their identity. Further, there are another minority among these who feel called to take on the Mosaic covenant and , more than just being grafted on, they want to BECOME Israel.

This very last group of Messianic Gentiles is the subject of this thread, as it may be best for them to switch ethnicities, from Messianic Gentiles, to Messianic Jews.

visionary · Jun 1, 2015

The path of a gentile to becoming a part of Israel is loaded with difficulties in all areas mentioned above and the final step has improved in recent years for Messianic Judaism people. There have also been numerous court cases debating whether Messianic Jews qualify for citizenship. Originally, the Messianic denomination was deemed to be a different religion from Judaism entirely, but that view has been successfully challenged in some cases. That doesn't mean that Messianic Gentiles can become a Israeli citizen.

Messianics converting to Judaism

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Spenglerian

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Spenglerian

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

Spenglerian

Y'shua is His Name

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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Y'shua is His Name

Y'shua is His Name

Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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Men dream of truth, find it then cant live with it

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Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

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