• The General Mental Health Forum is now a Read Only Forum. As we had two large areas making it difficult for many to find, we decided to combine the Mental Health & the Recovery sections of the forum into Mental Health & Recovery as a whole. Physical Health still remains as it's own area within the entire Recovery area.

    If you are having struggles, need support in a particular area that you aren't finding a specific recovery area forum, you may find the General Struggles forum a great place to post. Any any that is related to emotions, self-esteem, insomnia, anger, relationship dynamics due to mental health and recovery and other issues that don't fit better in another forum would be examples of topics that might go there.

    If you have spiritual issues related to a mental health and recovery issue, please use the Recovery Related Spiritual Advice forum. This forum is designed to be like Christian Advice, only for recovery type of issues. Recovery being like a family in many ways, allows us to support one another together. May you be blessed today and each day.

    Kristen.NewCreation and FreeinChrist

My thought's on 12 step groups, with some constructive criticism. Poll Included

Do you think 12 step groups are effective for you?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 53.3%
  • No

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • They've been mildly effective

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • They've been moderately effective

    Votes: 2 13.3%

  • Total voters
    15

mikenet2006

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This post will be a whopper so bear with me, I need feedback from 12 steppers and those who have addiction problems, others too if it's alowed. This will be a debate of sorts as well as being a support forum for those seeking alternate forms of recovery. I welcome feedback and critisism from those who have attended 12 step groups, or from those who have addiction problems or are just curious about recovery.

My name is Michael and I have addiction problems. I also have a great deal of attendance at various 12 step groups, so I have some experience with addiction.

I wanted to open by saying what was in bold, because that is one of the crucial problems I have with 12 step groups. It's some of the termonology used that I have issues with, not the goal of becoming clean. I think it's a very admirable thing to want to get clean. I'm currently in the process of doing the same.

So my first issue was introducing myself as an addict. Every 12 step group I've attended is the same in that respect. Everyone is encouraged to introduce themselves as an addict. That's what you say, you say your name is _______ and I'm an addict. When I went into these groups and didn't say "my name is Michael and I'm an addict", it felt weird because it's what 99% of the members in these groups do.

Why do I think this is wrong? Im not going to speak for everyone but for me it's not a fit and I'll explain why. I believe my addictions are a part of me, however I don't believe they define me. I always wanted to go into these groups and say my name is Michael and I have addiction problems. The reasoning behind this is not that im in denial of my situation, it's because I believe there is so much more to me than the addiction I have.

To speak for me (they say speak for yourself in 12 step groups) I believe I'm a very sympathetic man with some amazing qualities, I used to play the guitar quite well for example, I have an increadible talent in writing when I have my ducks in a row. I'm an experienced blogger and debater, I've had a few relationships where I've tried my hardest to do the best I could, and I'm great with animals among other things. Right now I'm getting clean and helping my mom, my family is important to me so I figured I can replace my addiction with helping someone else. I value things such as being good to others to the best of my ability, and in short I think Im a good person. Im not useless, hopeless, or helpless, and I'm not someone who has no identity outide my addiction issues. Im not trying to brag, I say this because I think presenting oneself as a disease is counterproductive for many.

Personaly I think the word addict is a label, it's effective for some but depressing and self defeating for others. There are underlying problems to why people use and I believe there is so much more to me than my addiction issues, and I believe there is so much more to everyone than the addiction they have. Human beings are complicated, we're all different in our own ways, and respond differently to the recovery options we have available. And yes there are options that work outsie of 12 step groups.

So that's my first issue, the labeling. I was told by a sponsor not to worry about it.

Secondly, 12 step groups have always felt somewhat cult like, that's another concern I have. They let you choose your higher power which is good, but I always felt it had the feel of a cult. For example they claim that you have to give yourself fully to the 12 step program. It's all or nothing, you believe the 12 steps are effetive, you follow them, and you believe in it fully. They say you should give yourself to what they call a simple program. But I find it to be complicated, with the more experienced members jumping around to various steps at differnt times. The very act of getting clean is hard and complicated in my opinion. Some people have families and may not be able to make groups 7 days a week, and everyone has personal obstacles that interfere with recovery, and perhaps people in their life that make it hard for them to recover. Recovery to me is hard and complicated, end of story. It's not as simple as just stopping for most people from what I've seen, and I've seen a lot.

Here's the big one, the number one problem I have with 12 step groups, it's the thing that made me reject 12 step groups altogether. (I am powerless), anyone who goes to these groups will eventually have to come to the conclusion they they are powerless over their addiction. This is a tactic to encourage people to seek help from others, and while it makes sense I believe it's innacurate. I've also talked to professional addiction specialist and therapist who have said that this kind of mindset can be counterproductive. I'm paraphasing, one therapist I went to actually said it was nonsense and that she's glad Im smarter than that.

So why do I think this is wrong? I think it will work for some actually, im not going to lie, I've seen 12 step groups become very effective and work for many people, I've also seen it fail continuously for at least half the members who attend, from my experience. The idea of thinking I am powerless to get better without a 12 step mindset is a huge turn off.

I believe God wants us to make decisions, I believe God is here to guide us, not to control us. So what that tells me about 12 step groups is that it can be something similar, it can be used as a guide, but everyone will always have the power of decision making. I think everyone has the potential to take control of their life, even if it just means reaching out to others, or even if it's deciding to go to a 12 step group, or other form of outpaitient therapy. Sometimes family helps a great deal, personaly I like to adhere to people who talk positive and do healthy things. That's how I see recovery, replacing bad things with good things, and good people who will help me through the struggles I have, and if a person believes in God praying really helps, it's helped me.

Here's where I think 12 step groups shine....

The act of confession and reaching out to others is a powerful thing, I believe that alone has made 12 steps effective for many people. It puts you in an environment where you can talk about your problems without being judged, and that's an awesome thing. I think that is the primary thing that keeps these groups going actually, when I attended it always seemed to help to know I could share a problem I had. However it turns out that I can do that with family, and in outpatiant addiction groups that are not 12 step based.

I feel better this way, the groups I attend primarily teach healty self talk, they're all about making changes in your life and routine, they also encouradge getting help from others. In short 12 steps is not for me, but I want to know what everyone here thinks of this, does this resinate with anyone who's trying to get sober? Does anyone who is a dedicated 12 step member have any feedback? I need replies from all angles here, this post was very important to me, I had these thoughts about 12 step groups on my mind for a long time.

I want to end this by saying that this is an open discussion, anyone with criticisms of 12 step programs is welcome to make them here, if you are a dedicated 12 step member who has experience I also want this debate open to you, defend your group and your beliefs, perhaps we can start a dialogue and have a constructive debate. I want everyone to feel comfortable posting here, If this forum sticks around I'll have follow up experiences I've had in 12 step groups, and would love to reply to post from other members. Also my views on 12 step groups are mine and may not be shared by everyone, I'm willing to learn and share, I do have at least some positive experiences in 12 step groups as well. Sorry for the obnoxious length of the opening post :p

The opening post was edited for some spell checking, I may have missed some words.
 
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mikenet2006

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I had just read that this forum is for support not debate, I'll need help from a moderator on where to repost this if it's necessary I want it to be seen by addicts if possible. I don't want to double post until I hear from a moderator on where this should go. I know double post are frowned upon, but Id be okay to have it relocated to a proper location if it's necessary. I want this one to be read so any help is appreciated. This forum could be seen as a place to seek support and share ideas, but it's quite like a debate as well. I wanted it to be read by addicts, but had trouble finding the proper place to put this forum.
 
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I was told by a CF ambassador that a moderator said the forum was okay, if a moderator from the addiction group has an issue, notify me and we'll figure something out :)

Id love to know what experiences people have had in 12 step groups, and if any alternative methods have worked. That's the primary focus of this forum, I stated in the opening post the concerns I've had. Votes and feedback would be awesome if anyone wants to share. And for those who have had sucsess in a 12 step group, Id love to hear from you too.
 
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Hello mikenet,

Thanks for sharing this. I have no experience on the 12 step program, but I've heard about similar programs that are praised by as being successful.

So tell me, main purpose to these programs are to offer the non-judgmental and easy transition to a place of hope to battle what ever the person's addition is, but really...how welcoming and substantial are they?

I am curious to know your opinion on it. How are these programs different to each other, and does it really matter the kind of addiction the person has?
 
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mikenet2006

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:) It started with Alcholics Anoymous, which was established a back in the 1930's. Groups such as Narcotics Anonymous, and Sexaholics Anonymous came later. They all follow the same basic formula, they borrowed the rules from AA and applied it to various other addictions. Their are some differences between the groups but they all have a very similar feel, they're 12 step based groups.

The members in these groups are very different from person to person, most of the more experienced members are welcoming, while the new members have it difficult, some of them are not pleasent to be around. The thing I kept in the back of my head going into these groups is that they lack professionals. You will run across more experienced members who know the books well, but nobody is paid to be at these groups so they have some inconsistancy to them. Although they discouradge certian things such as interupting, or what they call cross talk, it's unregulated. Going into these groups a person needs to be prepared to hear anything. From my experience the groups were generally depressing and didn't work for me.

What I was experiencing was 10 to 20 people sitting in a circle talking about how miserable their day was, or how miserable it was in the past. I didn't like it, I wanted to replace negative thinking with positive thinking and positive people. From my experience well over half the members talk about what's wrong with them much more than the good things about them.

It's understandable, many of the members are hurting in these groups, but if I had my way with these groups the members would be taking walks, enjoying the sun, and going to places to observe how healthy people function. Of the 100 or so 12 step groups I attended, 1 was outside, the rest were inside. Various churches allow 12 step groups to use one of the rooms they have to hold their groups, and while that brought some comfort to me, the groups were usually held in dimly lit rooms, with very depressed people. It was a hard environment for me, it made me feel like I was hopeless and helpless without believing what they did. The 12 step books have subtle messages to encouradge new members to feel like they need the program. That's just my opinion on them, it's not a good one, but I've seen it work for some.

Sharing your problems with others works for many, I like to keep issues like that with people I know care without question though. I learned that I can vent on my own terms with people I trust, generally family members. I quit going when I learned my sponsor didn't care much about me. It's a long story with lots of details, but I also want to respect those who have had more positive experiences in these groups. I'm happy for those who had a 12 step group work for them. I just know it's not the only way, and that it didn't work for many who actually gave it a real shot, like myself. To each his own, as long as people are getting better. Thanks for the reply, it means a lot.
 
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Ahermit

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I have been involved with the 12 step program for nearly thirty years. I have heard all the criticisms before. The point is, if you are willing to go to any lengths to recover, regardless of what help/program you use, then you are on the road to recovery.

I like the 12 step program because it is a spiritual program. A program I needed at the time when I was spiritually bankrupt. I tried various Christian based churches, but my mind, body, and spirit were at odds with the members. AA and NA became my church, and the members understood my delusions and knew how to help me to become honest, repent, and make amends.

As my spirit recovered, my Higher Power become more in lined with Christianity. I still go to AA and NA, and I attend church as well. Actually, tomorrow 25/5/2015 will be 27 years clean and sober. And this year is my twentieth year as a D&A counselor.

In all honesty, recovery (total abstinence for life), requires a long-term research project for any clarity of success ratings.
The common 50-65% ratings by treatment centers are for 0-1 year in recovery. That rate drops as every year goes by. AA and NA (over a life time) have the highest ratings. These ratings are only a few percent (per hundred), and nearly everyone of those life-timers are very strong in following a spiritual life. I know that the success rates are low, but that is exactly the serious nature of addictions.
 
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mikenet2006

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I have been involved with the 12 step program for nearly thirty years. I have heard all the criticisms before. The point is, if you are willing to go to any lengths to recover, regardless of what help/program you use, then you are on the road to recovery.

I like the 12 step program because it is a spiritual program. A program I needed at the time when I was spiritually bankrupt. I tried various Christian based churches, but my mind, body, and spirit were at odds with the members. AA and NA became my church, and the members understood my delusions and knew how to help me to become honest, repent, and make amends.

As my spirit recovered, my Higher Power become more in lined with Christianity. I still go to AA and NA, and I attend church as well. Actually, tomorrow 25/5/2015 will be 27 years clean and sober. And this year is my twentieth year as a D&A counselor.

In all honesty, recovery (total abstinence for life), requires a long-term research project for any clarity of success ratings.
The common 50-65% ratings by treatment centers are for 0-1 year in recovery. That rate drops as every year goes by. AA and NA (over a life time) have the highest ratings. These ratings are only a few percent (per hundred), and nearly everyone of those life-timers are very strong in following a spiritual life. I know that the success rates are low, but that is exactly the serious nature of addictions.

I haven't heard the critisisms I've made that much, much of the time the critisisms are vulgar and non productive. I've heard that from experienced members before, that all the criticisms have been heard before, but I believe mine go in a different direction than most who aren't willing to seek help or get better. However I want to start by saying that's a long time to be sober Ahermit, first off that took some strenth on your part, as well as help from the outside. "Higher power" I like the concept of seeking help from others or God if your a believer, and anyone who thinks they can do it alone is going to have a hard time. I have a few questions for you if your up for it.

I once saw a sponsor who went 5 years without using, which I consider amazing. However he relapsed, (I'll keep it as anonymous as I can by not mentioning names, that's a favor to 12 steppers by the way, this subforum of Christian Forums, is "Addictions & Substances" this is not a 12 step section of this site, it's a section of the site where 12 steppers are welcome along with others) but this is what happened. He came into group, and stated that because he relapsed he was now in the same position as newcomers even though he went 5 years without using. The attitude he brought was that he had made no progress, I was scratching my head the entire time. Here's a man that went 5 years sober and he gave absolutely no credit to himself for what he had acomplised. That was particuarly discouradging for me.

What do you think, if you mess up would you aknowladge what you've done, would you pat yourself on the back? From my perspective I've heard and seen far too many experienced members focus on what they're doing wrong. I don't want to be like that if I go 5 or 10 years without using, personally id figure by then id be encouradging members to think positive.

There's nothing wrong with mentioning what's gone wrong in the past, or what's wrong in the present, however from my experince this is focused on far too much, often even by the more experienced members.

Okay, second thing I saw in your post. Here's the quote from you....

"I know that the success rates are low, but that is exactly the serious nature of addictions."

So you relate failure and relapse to the nature of addiction itself, rather than the 12 step groups not being effective for everyone? I put a question mark at the end of that sentence so I'm not putting words in your mouth. I believe that's not entirely accurate, yes the addiction relapse rate are high regardless of the recovery method people use, but I've also seen a lot of people who respond better outside these 12 step groups, often based on the environment of 12 step groups in particular.

You've seen this... It was from a member with addiction problems (I don't like refering to people as a disease, which is why I keep saying addiction problems, rather than saying they're a addict) Anyway here's his post....

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/i-am-thinking-about-leaving-aa.7879061/

The title of his forum is....

"i am thinking about leaving aa"

I read it, and most of the responses to it, you were respectful but from what I remember the forum went into a conversation about hating on AA.

For those who haven't seen this forum here's the gist of his experince....

He went 5 years sober, stated that the groups was effective up untill his last year when he started to view the 12 step groups as depressing, I heard AA refered to as a "spiritual kindergarten" his sponser relapsed and is now homeless and an active meth addict. Apparently the creator of this forum wants to retire from AA and move on after this experince. This is highly discouradged from the more experinced members from my experience, once an addict always an addict is the attitude they have. For the most part people say you'll always be an addict, and retiring from the program is not recomended. The more experienced members generally want you to stay, however when I was in these groups I once had a sponsor who I highly respected, he was realistic, didn't try to push his beliefs on me, and he was a very down to earth man, not the typical sponsor who threw dogma at me. Definition of dogma being....

"a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true."

He went even more than 5 years clean, he went into group one day and stated that he was ready to move on, I watched a couple of the more experienced members feeling bad for him. One I talked to shook his head and said yea he's retiring, as if that was a bad thing. Personally I thought it was great, I was like heck yea man good for you, he got what he needed from the program without taking it all in, and moved on.

So here's the primary questions I have...

Do you think you can retire from a 12 step program and be very sucsessful, and have you been supportive of those who decide to do this?


Other quesitons are...

If you mess up and relapse would you aknowladge what you've done, would you pat yourself on the back?

Do you mesure sucsess by the legnth of time someone has gone sober, or how much they've accomplished?

Last one I have for now...

Do you generally focus on how bad things are and have been in the past, or the positive experincences you have, (be humble and honest)?



 
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Ahermit

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Hello mikenet2006.
My answers are in blue.
I haven't heard the critisisms I've made that much, much of the time the critisisms are vulgar and non productive. I've heard that from experienced members before, that all the criticisms have been heard before, but I believe mine go in a different direction than most who aren't willing to seek help or get better. However I want to start by saying that's a long time to be sober Ahermit, first off that took some strenth on your part, as well as help from the outside. "Higher power" I like the concept of seeking help from others or God if your a believer, and anyone who thinks they can do it alone is going to have a hard time. I have a few questions for you if your up for it.

I once saw a sponsor who went 5 years without using, which I consider amazing. However he relapsed, (I'll keep it as anonymous as I can by not mentioning names, that's a favor to 12 steppers by the way, this subforum of Christian Forums, is "Addictions & Substances" this is not a 12 step section of this site, it's a section of the site where 12 steppers are welcome along with others) but this is what happened. He came into group, and stated that because he relapsed he was now in the same position as newcomers even though he went 5 years without using. The attitude he brought was that he had made no progress, I was scratching my head the entire time. Here's a man that went 5 years sober and he gave absolutely no credit to himself for what he had acomplised. That was particuarly discouradging for me.
There is something that needs to be understood about alcoholism. It never gets better, but worse.
A person who relapses, and returns to their former alcohol consumption, will experience worse alcoholism than before. Alcoholism deposits altered chemicals in the brain that do not go away. The more alcohol abuse, the more deposits to the brain. The damage is done, adding alcohol to it only makes it worse. (Google THIQ).
So, many who return realize that though they still have a head full of AA and spiritual knowledge, but their relapse proved that none of that saved them from relapse, or made anything better. Only sobriety makes all that knowledge and faith better and workable.
Before my 27 years of sobriety, I relapsed in and out of AA for seven years. Each relapse lasted longer than three months, and each was yet another rock-bottom of ego deflation of depth. Truth won out.


What do you think, if you mess up would you aknowladge what you've done yes, would you pat yourself on the back? No From my perspective I've heard and seen far too many experienced members focus on what they're doing wrong. I don't want to be like that if I go 5 or 10 years without using, personally id figure by then id be encouradging members to think positive.
The reasons AAs acknowledge a relapse is to be honest and to not mislead others from the truth about the nature of alcoholism. It is a program based on honesty.
Patting oneself on the back is fine for newcomers because they need as much boost to their low self-esteem when they come into AA. Every positive step towards recovery is a major step indeed. But as time goes on, humility, based on self truths, leads us to become aware that it is the spiritual aspect that ha helped us mostly. Sure we took the first step, and God supported those steps we initiated. So others may pat us on the back, but we try to remain humble.
Naturally not all AA members are like this. But the ones who are, they are seen but not seen (anonymous) so to speak.


There's nothing wrong with mentioning what's gone wrong in the past, or what's wrong in the present, however from my experince this is focused on far too much, often even by the more experienced members.

I agree with you that most AAs speak of the past more than the present. The past is what they know, has been tested on the floors of AA and received not criticism. They feel safe to speak that part of themselves. It is also a vital reminder of where we can return to if we relapse.
Talking about the present, and sharing both negative and positive aspects of ones life requires a degree of faith. The human ego likes to be liked and likes to be right. To be an older member, still lacking in faith, will resist being vulnerable and exposed as still struggling in life after all this time. Secondly, to share the positive, from a heart of gratitude, also requires faith and good recovery. All AAs first come in with a half empty glass attitude, and it takes an entire psyche change for a half full glass attitude. It takes time. Quite often it only takes one AA member to stand up and express their present positive experiences to encourage the rest to follow suit. Ego fear still plays its tune.
Many AAs in Australia, the member stand in front of the rest to do their sharing. Public speaking is still the number one fear for most people.


Okay, second thing I saw in your post. Here's the quote from you....

"I know that the success rates are low, but that is exactly the serious nature of addictions."

So you relate failure and relapse to the nature of addiction itself, rather than the 12 step groups not being effective for everyone? Yes and no I put a question mark at the end of that sentence so I'm not putting words in your mouth. I believe that's not entirely accurate, yes the addiction relapse rate are high regardless of the recovery method people use, but I've also seen a lot of people who respond better outside these 12 step groups, often based on the environment of 12 step groups in particular.

Sure, why shouldn't other programs, or groups, help alcoholics from suffering alcoholism. AA is not the only program that has helped others.
Above, I answered, yes and no. That is, (yes) addiction is not outside of the person, it is the person. A person who relapses, first needs to relapse into thinking they can return to their addiction. It is not the first drink that sends a person to relapse, it is the thoughts and or reasons that cause the relapse. Most relapses are caused by harboring a resentment of sorts.


You've seen this... It was from a member with addiction problems (I don't like refering to people as a disease, which is why I keep saying addiction problems, rather than saying they're a addict) Anyway here's his post....

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/i-am-thinking-about-leaving-aa.7879061/

The title of his forum is....

"i am thinking about leaving aa"

I read it, and most of the responses to it, you were respectful but from what I remember the forum went into a conversation about hating on AA.

For those who haven't seen this forum here's the gist of his experince....

He went 5 years sober, stated that the groups was effective up untill his last year when he started to view the 12 step groups as depressing, I heard AA refered to as a "spiritual kindergarten" his sponser relapsed and is now homeless and an active meth addict. Apparently the creator of this forum wants to retire from AA and move on after this experince. This is highly discouradged from the more experinced members from my experience, once an addict always an addict is the attitude they have. For the most part people say you'll always be an addict, and retiring from the program is not recomended. The more experienced members generally want you to stay, however when I was in these groups I once had a sponsor who I highly respected, he was realistic, didn't try to push his beliefs on me, and he was a very down to earth man, not the typical sponsor who threw dogma at me. Definition of dogma being....

"a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true."

He went even more than 5 years clean, he went into group one day and stated that he was ready to move on, I watched a couple of the more experienced members feeling bad for him. One I talked to shook his head and said yea he's retiring, as if that was a bad thing. Personally I thought it was great, I was like heck yea man good for you, he got what he needed from the program without taking it all in, and moved on.

So here's the primary questions I have...

Do you think you can retire from a 12 step program and be very sucsessful, and have you been supportive of those who decide to do this?


Yes to all accounts. My only concern is their spiritual program in life, if they have one then good, if not, I get concerned.
The AA program is a spiritual program, so that we place God of our understanding, before our own. In the past, often our best thinking gets us drinking - even after decades of sobriety. 'let go let God', is one of our many cliches. Without God it only takes one shot to get shot.



Other quesitons are...

If you mess up and relapse would you aknowladge what you've done, would you pat yourself on the back?
Already answered.

Do you mesure sucsess by the legnth of time someone has gone sober, or how much they've accomplished?
I measure success by a person's serenity and how they face and cope adversity.
Serenity and peace of mind is a measure of spiritual success, any other form of success is irrelevant to staying sober.
Length of sobriety is just a witness that sobriety, and being happy about it, is achievable to those who doubt it ( I used to one of them).


Last one I have for now...

Do you generally focus on how bad things are and have been in the past, or the positive experincences you have, (be humble and honest)?

Mostly on the positive experiences. I am a very grateful person to still be sober. I should have died 27 years ago. Not only that, but my life now is one of close communion with my understanding of God. I know God loves me, and everyday I fall in love with loving the Love that loves me.
The bad things, in my personal life, are no longer bad. It is those very things that has made me who I am today. And I am grateful to have been molded that way, for God has put it into service, for me to help others who are similar.
 
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mikenet2006

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My responses are in maroon, Your responses which I'm refering to are in black

"There is something that needs to be understood about alcoholism. It never gets better, but worse. A person who relapses, and returns to their former alcohol consumption, will experience worse alcoholism than before. Alcoholism deposits altered chemicals in the brain that do not go away. The more alcohol abuse, the more deposits to the brain. The damage is done, adding alcohol to it only makes it worse. (Google THIQ).
So, many who return realize that though they still have a head full of AA and spiritual knowledge, but their relapse proved that none of that saved them from relapse, or made anything better. Only sobriety makes all that knowledge and faith better and workable. Before my 27 years of sobriety, I relapsed in and out of AA for seven years. Each relapse lasted longer than three months, and each was yet another rock-bottom of ego deflation of depth. Truth won out."

Going back to drinking, if your an alcoholic it isn't a good idea, at least that's what I've heard, but I'm not an alcoholic. However I believe when people start talking about what the truth is, it's often what's been true for them, so im careful with what I say in that respect. My relapses have been different than yours, it didn't get worse each time. I feel like every time I fail, that I gain a little bit of knowledge, I almost failed today but family helped. As far as the chemestry goes I'll have to do more research on it. I'll keep it in mind, but the last time I went to my addiction specialist, he was very straight forward with me. He said he's not supposed to say this but he agrees with me more or less about 12 steps in general. That's not to say your wrong, it just means I hear something different from everyone about what the Truth is, so I'm careful. I took particualr notice of the last sentence.

"Patting oneself on the back is fine for newcomers because they need as much boost to their low self-esteem when they come into AA."

Patting oneself on the back is okay for anyone I think. In my opinion that's healthy self talk. A person can aknowledge that they've messed up and explain how've they've messed up to help others, and still be appreciative of what they've accomplished right?

"Yes to all accounts. My only concern is their spiritual program in life, if they have one then good, if not, I get concerned. The AA program is a spiritual program, so that we place God of our understanding, before our own. In the past, often our best thinking gets us drinking - even after decades of sobriety. 'let go let God', is one of our many cliches. Without God it only takes one shot to get shot."

Fair enough, and I agree for the most part, but I don't believe a person is powerless altogether though, as for 12 steps I think they can be used to help, and many of the lessons learned can have a lasting effect. I think many people will mix in what they've learned into their daily routine though, and rely on other sources of encouradgement as well. That's assuming 12 steps worked at all for them to begin with. Sometimes the simplest of things work, you might be surprised, my dad quit smoking after over 20 years as a smoker. He didn't go to a group, he just quit doing it. He also used to drink, he now has him a drink every so often. Maybe once a month from what I can see. In is younger years he drank much more. He realized these things were hurting him and poured himself into family basicly. Him and my mother have been married for over 40 years, it's rare these days, and he's an odd one my dad, he belives in God but doesn't go to church because he believes it's diluted with the opinion of man. I go sometimes to hear kind words and see friendly faces, it's a healthy environment, but my relationship between God is a very personal one though. I don't believe what every Christian does.

"Mostly on the positive experiences. I am a very grateful person to still be sober. I should have died 27 years ago. Not only that, but my life now is one of close communion with my understanding of God. I know God loves me, and everyday I fall in love with loving the Love that loves me. The bad things, in my personal life, are no longer bad. It is those very things that has made me who I am today. And I am grateful to have been molded that way, for God has put it into service, for me to help others who are similar."

That's awesome Ahermit, I think people need to hear mostly positive things. I think many of the newcomers especialy need to see that your happy. Good for you by the way.

What's your opinion on refering to youreslf as a disease? Explain to me why this helped you, I've seen it backfire for some, and it backfired for me. You've probably seen me comment on this one quite a bit.








 
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Ahermit

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Hello mikenet 2006.
The word disease according to Webster dictionary is (a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.)

This fits alcoholism very well, especially if we can consider that a disease could also be chemically introduced.
Remember, alcoholism is a mental disorder ( Google: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders).

Most people unfamiliar with the term easily find it distasteful, as if it was catching or something.
How I view it, is even deeper than that. It is not a disease that can be cured with today's medicine. It is a mental disorder, so we don't have it as such, but we are it, is a better description.

To make it easier to accept, AAs have broken the word as dis-ease, meaning dis-at-ease. In reality, the alcoholic does feel dis-at-ease with reality, and to some extent with themselves. With the reality side, the disease comes from not knowing and/or lack of experience with coping skills. Their primary coping skill, to most adversities, is to seek oblivion through alcohol consumption. In regards to feeling dis-at-ease with self, alcoholism isolates the alcoholic. While drunk their ego seems to go overboard to their reality, and when sober (not abstinent) their ego plummets to a low self-esteem. Alcoholism also taxes a persons natural supply of serotonin, so they will become prone to anxiety and depression when sober, which many alcoholics find that alcohol relieves it. So it becomes a Catch-22.

The alcoholics primary dis-at-ease is harboring resentments. They chew over and over the bone of contention. Eventually, to get away from it, they drink/relapse. The primary relief from resentments in recovery is acceptance, to let go and let God handle it. Because if we don't, the longer we chew that bone, the bitter it gets, and a drink starts to look like the only solution.

The whole idea of recovery is to have no resentments, or more realistically, know how to dissolve them ASAP. We have to trust in our Higher Power that we will still be okay if people, places, things, and situations do not go OUR way. That is also why the AA program, or any other spiritual program, will work best for the recovering alcoholic.

We need to take the negative (dis) out of dis-ease. If our life is one of acceptance (ease/serenity), then what possible reason do we have to return to the bottle of despair? Perhaps a touch of insanity from an active mental disorder. Many of us AAs believe that we are only sober by the grace of God.
 
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mikenet2006

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Hello mikenet 2006.
The word disease according to Webster dictionary is (a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury.)

This fits alcoholism very well, especially if we can consider that a disease could also be chemically introduced.
Remember, alcoholism is a mental disorder ( Google: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders).

Most people unfamiliar with the term easily find it distasteful, as if it was catching or something.
How I view it, is even deeper than that. It is not a disease that can be cured with today's medicine. It is a mental disorder, so we don't have it as such, but we are it, is a better description.

To make it easier to accept, AAs have broken the word as dis-ease, meaning dis-at-ease. In reality, the alcoholic does feel dis-at-ease with reality, and to some extent with themselves. With the reality side, the disease comes from not knowing and/or lack of experience with coping skills. Their primary coping skill, to most adversities, is to seek oblivion through alcohol consumption. In regards to feeling dis-at-ease with self, alcoholism isolates the alcoholic. While drunk their ego seems to go overboard to their reality, and when sober (not abstinent) their ego plummets to a low self-esteem. Alcoholism also taxes a persons natural supply of serotonin, so they will become prone to anxiety and depression when sober, which many alcoholics find that alcohol relieves it. So it becomes a Catch-22.

The alcoholics primary dis-at-ease is harboring resentments. They chew over and over the bone of contention. Eventually, to get away from it, they drink/relapse. The primary relief from resentments in recovery is acceptance, to let go and let God handle it. Because if we don't, the longer we chew that bone, the bitter it gets, and a drink starts to look like the only solution.

The whole idea of recovery is to have no resentments, or more realistically, know how to dissolve them ASAP. We have to trust in our Higher Power that we will still be okay if people, places, things, and situations do not go OUR way. That is also why the AA program, or any other spiritual program, will work best for the recovering alcoholic.

We need to take the negative (dis) out of dis-ease. If our life is one of acceptance (ease/serenity), then what possible reason do we have to return to the bottle of despair? Perhaps a touch of insanity from an active mental disorder. Many of us AAs believe that we are only sober by the grace of God.

Resentment against who? I must be an odd character or something, I never blamed anyone for my condition, even when I was at my worst. Where I failed was being hard on myself when I messed up, I took responsibility for my actions.

As far as what your saying about alcoholism being a mental disorder, Id sooner call it that than a disease. But id also be mindfull of the fact that I'm an individual outsite that mental disorder. I have a number of mental disorders that may be the root of some of my urges to use in the past, for example ADHD, depression, and PTSD are the big ones, still it was me who decided to start using. For informational purposes, I had or have addiction problems with Kava and Kratom. Both are plants grown in foreign countries, while they're legal in the U.S. they do have damaging side effects. Getting off those two substances wasn't easy for me, and I was spending a lot of money to get it. However I never put my essentials at risk, meaning I payed all my bills each month, and would tough it out if I ran out.

You said a lot of of newcomers find the word disease distasteful? That's because it is, at least in the context 12 step members use it in. I do agree there is some chemestry in the brain going on. Here's the problem I have. Nobody outside 12 step groups with a disease refers themselfes as the disease they have, Whether it be cancer, aids, lyme disease, or athlete's foot, none of these people sit in a circle and say I'm this disease. Id imagine most people outside those considered addicts would find that ludicrous.

This is a quote of yours from above...

"It is not a disease that can be cured with today's medicine. It is a mental disorder, so we don't have it as such, but we are it, is a better description."

That's one of fundemental disagrements with 12 step groups. If a group of people have addiction probles, cancer, ADHD, or whatever. They aren't addiction, cancer, or ADHD. They have Cancer, they have ADHD, or they have an addiction problem. See where I'm going with this?

In all the groups I've been to I've never once heard dis-at-ease, so honestly I don't think that's what newcomers are led to believe. They are led to believe they are a disease.

This along with the other concerns I addressed in the opening post, such as 12 steps feeling cult like, or making people believe they're powerless, even if they do work the steps. These are the things that made me reject 12 steps.

I don't consider myself a disease or disorder, and I don't believe I'm powerless, I understand I cant controll everything by making decisions by the way. But I make smart decisions as well as bad ones, and try to learn from my mistakes. My help from the outside is family, friends, an addiction specialist I see, and God.

I don't know how this got posted early, I wasn't finished with it, oh well maybe I accidently hit the button.
 
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katerinah1947

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I have been involved with the 12 step program for nearly thirty years. I have heard all the criticisms before. The point is, if you are willing to go to any lengths to recover, regardless of what help/program you use, then you are on the road to recovery.

Hi,
Demoral, Cigarettes, later alcohol. My burns and burn care were so bad in 1969, that they accidentally hooked me on Demarol. It took 8 1/2 years for the feelings to go away. I got off cigarettes on my own, it took eighteen months of constant failure. Then one day, I was done. Alcohol, again when I screwed up this time using it for a pain killer instead of Demoral as I was too afraid of that anymore after a major major surgery, I finally was able to get off it, but this time God made it happen. I just did the two week finishing, after I was back from an emergency physical trip, where there was no alcohol for a month and I was too exhausted each day from the activities to notice. The two week maintenance period, took all I had in me, not to drink then. I am okay now, ten years later.
Enough of that now. I did a survey once of ex-alcoholics. I was trying to figure out what method they used. The only method that I found in all of them, was they did not want to be an alcoholic anymore. It was desire. Desire, apparently is all that is needed, to get off any addiction. (I did not ask them spiritual questions, and no one brought that up either.)
Each had used a separate method, if I was not clear, but each of them just did not desire to be an alcohlic any more, and, that, is, pretty, much, what, you, have, said.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .
 
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mikenet2006

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Hi,
Demoral, Cigarettes, later alcohol. My burns and burn care were so bad in 1969, that they accidentally hooked me on Demarol. It took 8 1/2 years for the feelings to go away. I got off cigarettes on my own, it took eighteen months of constant failure. Then one day, I was done. Alcohol, again when I screwed up this time using it for a pain killer instead of Demoral as I was too afraid of that anymore after a major major surgery, I finally was able to get off it, but this time God made it happen. I just did the two week finishing, after I was back from an emergency physical trip, where there was no alcohol for a month and I was too exhausted each day from the activities to notice. The two week maintenance period, took all I had in me, not to drink then. I am okay now, ten years later.
Enough of that now. I did a survey once of ex-alcoholics. I was trying to figure out what method they used. The only method that I found in all of them, was they did not want to be an alcoholic anymore. It was desire. Desire, apparently is all that is needed, to get off any addiction. (I did not ask them spiritual questions, and no one brought that up either.)
Each had used a separate method, if I was not clear, but each of them just did not desire to be an alcohlic any more, and, that, is, pretty, much, what, you, have, said.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

I'm in agreement with you, and you seem to have a lot of compassion. I'm glad you got better, and I also agree that a desire to get clean is one of the most important things, that and having others that support you.
 
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mikenet2006

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I'd like to hear more from others who have had found recovery outside 12 step groups, and those who find that they're not working. Any other comments from 12 step members are also welcome. I want to find out what has worked for people and what hasn't and I know I'm not the only one who's finding help outside 12 steps.

I also want to thank Ahermit for giving his input, him and I have some different beliefs, but do share a few as well. Ahermit, your welcome to follow up on my last post to you if you want, or I'm okay to agree to disagee if that's the point we reached.

Here's a list of forums here on CF, within the addiciton and substances section, of people who have expressed concerns with 12 steps, have left 12 step programs, or have generally found them ineffective, it's not a complete list but it demonstates that other forms of recovery are practical and deserve more attention than they get, I want to be clear that this is not to bash 12 step programs, it's to demonstrate that other methods exsist, and concerns about 12 step programs are common, and in most cases very legitimate concerns. I'm keeping the links within the website, no links here are from other sections of the site or from another site, where critisisms are often even worse..... As a side note I threw in a couple links of people who have found some benifet from 12 steps.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/i-am-thinking-about-leaving-aa.7879061/ (I posted this one previously, the OP finds the groups depressing after 5 years and wants to leave them, his sponsor relapsed and is now an active addict as well as being homeless.)

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/recovery-without-a-step-program.7796448/ (The OP in this one simply ask some questions. One reply he got is that you need a step program to get better, While another member said it's not manditory, and another said they got clean without a 12 step program. So mixed opinions are being given here, all of these links are a good read for those seeking to get better)

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/aa-recovery-rate.7834471/ (The OP said this... "AA recovery rate is said to be by Bob Darrel an AA leader to be 1,2 or 3 percent. Spontaneous remission is 5 percent according to that AA worse then doing nothing for recovery. And I believe it is non CHRIST based recovery leads to failure." The OP got a little heat for that one, One member quoting a famous saying from AA...)

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people w ho cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves."

(Personally I find this commet to be offensive, and innacurate. Getting sober is not simple with whatever method you choose, it's hard, and I've seen too many members who have worked the steps and failed repeatedly to believe that's at all acurate for the majority. This quote suggest that those who fail with 12 steps, or don't follow their path usually lack the ability to be honest.

I find that to be a way to hook members to a program that doesn't always work, the problem with it is that it puts doubt in the minds of those who do not recover with 12 steps, and personally comments like that made me feel like a failure, even though I was being honest about my relapses, and straight forward with my sponsor, I had to hear that saying every time I went to a 12 step group, and for me it got old)

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/celebrate-recovery.7850892/

(The OP in this forum found recovery through CR groups, AKA (Celebrate Recovery)

This program was founded in 1990 as a response to 12 step programs, they take the conception of "higher power" and make the higher power exclusivly as Jesus Christ. If you attend these groups Jesus is your higher power from what I'm reading. It appears to be an alternative to traditional 12 step programs, with some strong similarities however. It looks like it would be great for Christians. One big difference I noticed in their steps was this one.....

12 steps... "We made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all."
Celebrate Recovery... "Do to others as you would have them do to you.Luke 6:31"

I like the difference here because CR talks about what's present rather than all the things you've done wrong in the past.

Beyond confession, I don't think it's always a good idea to rehash the mistakes you've made with multiple people you've hurt. Some will respond badly, but I'll give credit to 12 steps for at least suggesting not to hurt anyone in the process of making amends, they caught themselves on that one, but I still think the CR quote is better. I feel this way partially because my former brother in law started doing 12 steps after cheating on my sister with multiple women, molesting someone, then he got into drugs. After the fact he tried to introduce what he was doing in 12 steps, after the hurt and abuse my sister went through with him she wanted nothing to do with him, and simply did not want to talk about it, or think about it. She was done with him. Last I heard he hasn't changed but that was a while back.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/great-read-for-the-recovering-addict.7811481/

This forum is about a book a member here read on Brian Welch, they said it was a good read. I did some research on Brian Welch and his recovery, he was a member of the band Korn, he refered to 12 step groups as boring, but otherwise had some positive things to say about them. He has declared that he has rid himself of all drugs in his "own personal rehab" with God. From what I'm reading he did attend 12 step groups and doesn't have a horrrible opinioin of them.

One last forum...

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-it-wise-to-take-steps-on-my-own.7662911/

(The OP suggested that they had been to all kinds of 12 step meetings but never seemed to fit in, he was asking if it's okay to take on the steps by himself. Here was one reply...

"Ugh, the answer to that would be NO!!!.......You don't even know what your reading.")

Not all the links above are from members against 12 steps, it's a mix of people who found recovery outside 12 step groups, or had concerns about them. This forum is also full of people who have found recovery in 12 step groups. My concerns are in the opening post, and in some of my replies to Ahermit. I wanted to do links to these, because I think it's important that the original forums I posted are read, so you can make your own conclusions. It's about honesty right? I feel I want to launch these critisisms and be fair and accurate as well.
 
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Colter

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Well, you could start with your resentment for a a :)

* The admission of defeat, surrender, is where we get strength.

* When I announce myself as an addict it's a reaffirmation of surrender.

* Special-case-ness is a common manifestation of the spiritual sickness of the addict.

* The meeting is where we talk about the solution that we are supposed to be doing when we aren't at the meeting.

* The 12 step programs are like a cult or sect, just like Jesus and his early sect of gospel teachers and preachers. But we have no leader like a cult figure so???

* I have 30 years of continuous sobriety and clean time, don't be pig headed. I've been to many funerals of people who were too smart, special cases, all the world is a stage and they are/were its cheif critics.

* Just shut up and get in the car, this isn't a popularity contest, you are here to save your life!

............ and for gosh sakes, don't ask "specialist", they are sick, they go home and drink and drug at night! We've had 3 kill themselves here in the last 3 years. 2 psychiatrist and 1 Tirana councilor!
 
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Well, you could start with your resentment for a a :)

* The admission of defeat, surrender, is where we get strength.

* When I announce myself as an addict it's a reaffirmation of surrender.

* Special-case-ness is a common manifestation of the spiritual sickness of the addict.

* The meeting is where we talk about the solution that we are supposed to be doing when we aren't at the meeting.

* The 12 step programs are like a cult or sect, just like Jesus and his early sect of gospel teachers and preachers. But we have no leader like a cult figure so???

* I have 30 years of continuous sobriety and clean time, don't be pig headed. I've been to many funerals of people who were too smart, special cases, all the world is a stage and they are/were its cheif critics.

* Just shut up and get in the car, this isn't a popularity contest, you are here to save your life!

............ and for gosh sakes, don't ask "specialist", they are sick, they go home and drink and drug at night! We've had 3 kill themselves here in the last 3 years. 2 psychiatrist and 1 Tirana councilor!

I don't agree with 12 step groups entirely and have wasted time with them, that's me though, everyone is different. Your giving me a lesson on resentment, yet you with 30 years of sobrity was the only one to come in here and tell someone to shut up, or suggest they're pig headed. Do you have resentment for those who disagree with you? I was very civil and simply stated a difference in opinion and shared my experince.

Your opinion on specialist being sick and go home drunk every night is okay if your telling the truth, but you generalized about all of them, and it sounded like you grouped them all together. I didn't do that in my opening post, I recongnized differences in various 12 step members and aknowladged that 12 steps has a range of personalities, I also said repeatedly that they work for some. Your approach was differnt, you got rude, and you grouped addiction specialist together. Again do you have resentment against those who don't do what you do? I'm not a believer in 12 steps, shouldn't I be the one saying ugly things? 30 years should have given you a degree of humbleness and compassion for others because your supposed to further along in reovery. I didn't see that demonstrated by you, so your not convincing me of your beliefs, your making me wonder how someone can go thirty years sober and still have the resentment they preach against.

I haven't had a drunk addiction specialist yet, but I have seen a drunk sponsor go to a group and claim sobriety. Most sponsors don't do this but in this case he was one of the more respected members of the group, but had a strong smell of alcohol on his breath and I'm being honest. I never knew what to expect in 12 step groups, like I said before they're unregulated so anything can happen.

You say this which is common in step groups....

"* The admission of defeat, surrender, is where we get strength."

I don't agree with this either entirely, I get strenth by trying to get better, and the only surrender I do is getting all the help I can get and not trying to do everything alone, including God and hanging around positive people who are supportive. I don' have to surrender anything in group where half the people are strangers. However I do recongnize my mistakes but I learn from them, I give up certain things but I don't feel defeated, I feel hopeful, and for that I'm thankful.

And Special-case-ness? Well like I said before we're all different and respond differently to recovery options, I'm glad you found one you like, but do you have any special character traits outside your addiction? It's been good for me to recongnize my characteristics outside that label, I may have addiction problems but I have traits that are unique to me. Going to a 12 step group didn't change that, I don't believe everyone can be lumped together as the same thing. Similarities in addicts exsist, but I've seen and read about people recovering without believing what you do. Your okay with that right?
 
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Colter

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I don't agree with 12 step groups entirely and have wasted time with them, that's me though, everyone is different. Your giving me a lesson on resentment, yet you with 30 years of sobrity was the only one to come in here and tell someone to shut up, or suggest they're pig headed. Do you have resentment for those who disagree with you? I was very civil and simply stated a difference in opinion and shared my experince.

Your opinion on specialist being sick and go home drunk every night is okay if your telling the truth, but you generalized about all of them, and it sounded like you grouped them all together. I didn't do that in my opening post, I recongnized differences in various 12 step members and aknowladged that 12 steps has a range of personalities, I also said repeatedly that they work for some. Your approach was differnt, you got rude, and you grouped addiction specialist together. Again do you have resentment against those who don't do what you do? I'm not a believer in 12 steps, shouldn't I be the one saying ugly things? 30 years should have given you a degree of humbleness and compassion for others because your supposed to further along in reovery. I didn't see that demonstrated by you, so your not convincing me of your beliefs, your making me wonder how someone can go thirty years sober and still have the resentment they preach against.

I haven't had a drunk addiction specialist yet, but I have seen a drunk sponsor go to a group and claim sobriety. Most sponsors don't do this but in this case he was one of the more respected members of the group, but had a strong smell of alcohol on his breath and I'm being honest. I never knew what to expect in 12 step groups, like I said before they're unregulated so anything can happen.

You say this which is common in step groups....

"* The admission of defeat, surrender, is where we get strength."

I don't agree with this either entirely, I get strenth by trying to get better, and the only surrender I do is getting all the help I can get and not trying to do everything alone, including God and hanging around positive people who are supportive. I don' have to surrender anything in group where half the people are strangers. However I do recongnize my mistakes but I learn from them, I give up certain things but I don't feel defeated, I feel hopeful, and for that I'm thankful.

And Special-case-ness? Well like I said before we're all different and respond differently to recovery options, I'm glad you found one you like, but do you have any special character traits outside your addiction? It's been good for me to recongnize my characteristics outside that label, I may have addiction problems but I have traits that are unique to me. Going to a 12 step group didn't change that, I don't believe everyone can be lumped together as the same thing. Similarities in addicts exsist, but I've seen and read about people recovering without believing what you do. Your okay with that right?

It's been my experience that people who find reasons not to go to 12 step programs have never actually followed the instructions in the AA text book, the path that the founders took to happiness and sobriety.

If you had followed the instructions you would know that we list our Assets as well as our Liabilities in our 4th step inventory. If you had actually followed the instructions instead of finding fault then you would know that the "label" refers specifically to the addiction, NOT the assets (qualities) that we may have.

The saying "shut up and get in the car" is common in my area when people are trying to "identify out." I'm sorry if that sounds rude, I'm not trying to be rude to you, I'm being honest with you. You talk about the meetings you went to as being "negative" when in fact you were sitting there judging everyone in the room who has the courage to share their problems in front of others (a practice that can be very therapeutic and strengthening for fellow sufferers). It was you who were being negative.

This is the way Jesus put surrender:

"If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me."For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

AA gets step one from this idea as it was simplified in the Oxford Group "We admitted we were licked" Dependence on God means independence not weakness.

Quibbling over the word powerless is silly. Can you control your drug and alcohol use while on it? If not then that's what powerless means. Maybe you could find a different word as a substitute.

There are some good councilors out in the world, but people who look for excuses to avoid the difficult things they need to face about themselves seek out councilors who will tell them what they want to hear.
 
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mikenet2006

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It's been my experience that people who find reasons not to go to 12 step programs have never actually followed the instructions in the AA text book, the path that the founders took to happiness and sobriety.

If you had followed the instructions you would know that we list our Assets as well as our Liabilities in our 4th step inventory. If you had actually followed the instructions instead of finding fault then you would know that the "label" refers specifically to the addiction, NOT the assets (qualities) that we may have.

The saying "shut up and get in the car" is common in my area when people are trying to "identify out." I'm sorry if that sounds rude, I'm not trying to be rude to you, I'm being honest with you. You talk about the meetings you went to as being "negative" when in fact you were sitting there judging everyone in the room who has the courage to share their problems in front of others (a practice that can be very therapeutic and strengthening for fellow sufferers). It was you who were being negative.

This is the way Jesus put surrender:

"If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me."For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

AA gets step one from this idea as it was simplified in the Oxford Group "We admitted we were licked" Dependence on God means independence not weakness.

Quibbling over the word powerless is silly. Can you control your drug and alcohol use while on it? If not then that's what powerless means. Maybe you could find a different word as a substitute.

There are some good councilors out in the world, but people who look for excuses to avoid the difficult things they need to face about themselves seek out councilors who will tell them what they want to hear.

Well, id say twelve step members are indeed different, Ahermit was awesome, very respectful and stuck to making his points, I didn't go easy on him and stated my beliefs but I liked the exchange we had. I may not have agreed with him but I don't have resentment for him, the only ones that bother me are the pushy ones, the ones that lie about sobriety, the ones who fail to see that 12 steps doesn't always work, and the ones who primarily focus on what's bad.

Here's part of what you said above...

"If you had followed the instructions you would know that we list our Assets as well as our Liabilities in our 4th step inventory. If you had actually followed the instructions instead of finding fault then you would know that the "label" refers specifically to the addiction, NOT the assets (qualities) that we may have."

I did try to work the steps, and I've seen people who got all the way through the steps and fail, that's understandable because the steps aren't perfect, and recovering is hard, but I've also seen long term members think anyone who doesn't work the steps basically lack the ability to be honest, it's even in the literature and I think it's offensive and not always accurate, and it's not always practiced the way the books suggest.

Newcomers are often treated like they just don't get it, or they're in denial, or can't be honest. While true for many, some just simply don't like the literature, don't like the environment of 12 steps, or have bad experinces in them. That's me, I found these programs to be depressing and got a sense that the newcomers are treated like they understand nothing unless they take on 12 steps. Similar to the way you acted in your first response to me, but sometimes worse than that. This is one of the reasons I believe these groups felt cult like. Subtle and sometimes rude comments try to convince newcomers that they need to believe what the long time members do to get better. I'll never go back to one of these groups but I will get better.

Again, you say the label refers specifically to addiction but I don't always see this by many members, I hear and see lots of generalizations about the personalities of various people, again for example suggesting those who don't get better aren't honest. That's a geralizing comment that groups newcomers together in my opinion. It's speaks of the personalities of newcomers, if someone lacks the ability to be honest with addiction, that says something about their personality as a whole as well. The more reasonable members do work with newcomers and treat them like individuals but I've also seen the opposite, and in many cases I just don't agree with these books and think they're designed to make people believe they need the program.

You weren't in a position to tell me I didn't try to work the steps, I've had many sposonsors who I was honest and forthcoming with, plus you don't know much about me other than I have addiciton problems. I'm not finding reasons not to get better either, I'm explaining my experience in 12 step groups. I have potential without these groups telling me what's right and wrong.

I also thought talking about powerlessnes as a solid argument, it may refer primarily to the addiciton, but I've also seen memebers stop doing things they enjoy because of comments like that, they took it as an indicator that they have no ability to make healthy decisions. I don't like the termonology because I've seen it depress people, and I've seen it have negative effects on people too.

Again for some people it works, as I've said a dozen times in this forum, my argument is that it fails for a majority and many of these people are being honest, and are trying to get better. That was a bit repetitive to help you to understand where I'm coming from a little better so I'll move on by explaining a little more about my experience in these groups.

There were generally 10 - 20 people, about half the people came in for a day or a couple weeks and I never saw them again, then there's some that work the steps then decide to quit or relapse and lose faith in the group. Each group had probably 5 or less memers who were die hard believers, but I've also seen about half of those members relapse, then consider themselves as being in the same position as newcomers. After I quit going, I also refered a friend to the groups I went to, and gave him my books. I said nothing negative about them, I just wanted to see if he'd have a different experience. He went for a couple months and decided it wasn't for him.

So from my experience I saw the program having a long term effect on less than 5 members in each group (rough estimate) The last time I attended a 12 step program was a couple weeks ago but I didn't have a choice really, they brought in 12 step memers into one of the groups I attended. Do you want to know how it went? It was only two 12 step members that came, they were long time members. We all sat there and listened for about 45 minutes while they explained how miserable there life was, nothing positive whatsoever. They took up so much time that the rest of us had about 5 to 10 minutes to respond, which didn't give everyone time to share anything. These two guys wanted to explain horror stories in an attempt to lure people in therapy groups to believe 12 steps is the way to go, they put fear and doubt in the minds of all of us that day. Needless to say I didn't see anyone in our group take on their offer to join the group. It was a different feel than what we were used to, but I knew about these groups already so I managed with limited time to throw in a couple questions.

This to me is similar to Christians who try to scare people into believing in Jesus, or beliving in God. That approach is wrong and it usually turns people away from God and away from religion in general. Now the believers who have compassionate things to say are the ones I'm trying to learn from, the ones who talk about how God loves everyone and generally have a positive attitude. I have so much respect for people like that, I believe in God now based on some experiences I had, but I still generally stay away from those who are pushy and make crude remarks, and view God as a vengefull God. Like I said I don't believe what every Christian does, but I love the positive effect it has on the loving and caring Christians. I believe there are more Christians like that than 12 step members, although some 12 step members are Christian.
 
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mikenet2006

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I want to update this forum occasionally as I recover instead of the other forum I did, in part for me, another reason is I want it to serve as an experiment to see how well I can recover without 12 steps, I'm going to be honest about relapses, and would love to hear from others who are getting better without going to 12 step programs.

I recently added quitting smoking, lowering my amounts of caffine, and lowering my amounts of sugar to the list of things I'm changing, along with some exercise as I was told it naturally helps with depression. Wednesday was my quit smoking day, I messed up and had one smoke a couple nights ago. This so far is a very difficult habbit to break, but I've gone from smoking over a pack a day to smoking one within a 4 day period, so I'm very happy with this and confident I'm quiting despite the setback.

The Kava I was doing was the worst thing for my health overall, it was as bad for me as alcohol is to those who drink heavily and consistantly. Based on the research I've done and the experience I had it may even be worse, not only did it have an awful effect on my liver, give me an eye infection, give me a UTI, and suppress my apetite, it also had a terrible effect on my muscles and skin. My skin started peeling off after about a year of use. Some foreigners binge on Kava to shed a layer of skin so newer softer skin takes it's place in a drastic attempt to exfoliate their skin. This is not recomended obviously and from what I'm reading it can have deadly consequences. Kava is legal, but extremely dangerous if you get hooked on it. I've been clean off of this for close to a month, I need to get the exact date, but it's been long enough that I don't hurt as bad, and my skin is now healing.

I'm doing good with the caffeine reduction, I quit drinking energy drinks in the morning but I do still have a small intake of caffeine daily. This comes from the tea I drink and the diet sodas I drink a couple times a day. It's a small amount compared to what I was taking before.

Sugar is a complicated matter, it's addictive but also good in small amounts. It's very hard to get away from, and I feel bad for diabetics. I'm looking at stuff I have right now, Kraft Singles cheese has sugar, Whole Grain Sun Chips has sugar, Yoplait Light has sugar, Ensure has sugar, Ketchup has a lot of sugar, and even V8 juice has sugar. It's amazing to me, on my last grocery shopping trip I got very frustrated because I realized that many of the name brand stuff that I like has no low or no sugar alternatives. I'm not so much worried about stuff like Ensure, or V8 juice because the amount of sugar is low, but the sweet stuff I like, such as Ice Cream has fewer options for diabetics or those wanting to reduce sugar than some people might realize. So sugar is in most of the things people eat on a daily bases, and I was also told by my therapist that large intakes of sugar is also bad for depression, which I have. He basically gave me a list of foods to eat and foods and substances to stay away from. I've lowered my intake of sugar some, but this one is particualry tricky and often overlooked.

As always feedback from others, and personal stories are welcome here, from anyone.
 
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mikenet2006

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Things are okay so far, I'm still Kava, and cigarette free. Sugar and caffeine intakes are still reduced, I'm going to let this forum settle to the bottom for a while, maybe update it in a month or two to let other forums take more focus. I'll be back on here and still have my support systems in place. The longer I go sober I may want to comment on other forums more, I like this website in general, the people here tend to be kind and supportive.
 
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