Pope: denying Israel's right to exist is anti-Semitic

LivingWordUnity said:

In Ezekiel 11:17, God addresses that.

"Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’" - Ezekiel 11:17​

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*eyeroll* yeah. OK.

LivingWordUnity said:

According to God, the land belongs to the Jews. And this goes back thousands of years.

"Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: I will gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.’" - Ezekiel 11:17​

“Know therefore, that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness; for you are a stubborn people." - Deuteronomy 9:6
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As one can see from the Scripture quoted, whether or not the Jewish people conduct themselves righteously does not take away God's promise to them that they have a right to that land since God gave them the land despite their unrighteousness.

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Christ tells me, Love God and thy neighbour as thyself.
I can't say that attitude motivates the state of Israel, can you?
Did Christ leave them out of the reckoning?

LivingWordUnity said:

Israel is a Jewish nation. So it's impossible to separate the nation from the Jewish race.

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I think there are a lot of American and European Jews who would disagree with you. Not all of them, but some of them. Remember, Israel has a very liberal (in an apolitical sense) immigration policy for Jews around the world, so in essence most of the Jewish folks who are not living in Israel right now have in some sense of the word *chosen* not to live in Israel. Many have been citizens of countries like the United States or France going back many generations, as much or more so as many Christian immigrant families who are far enough removed from their ancestors arriving that they are considered fully assimilated and where we wouldn't recognize them as anything but American or French or whatever their current country is. In a way, lumping all Jews in with the nation of Israel might be considered to be, perhaps very unintentionally, anti-Semitic in and of itself, depending on the circumstances.

I've met many Jews who have never even been to Israel, and at least one who is very critical of the current Prime Minister of Israel and his policies.

Palestinian Christians are not oppressed by their Muslim neighbors. Both are oppressed by Israel. The Pope showcased this quite clearly when he prayed for the Bethlehem wall to come down.

God has gathered His people together
He has gathered His people into the Church

religious Zionism is not an acceptable view within Catholicism

the Church is the Biblical Israel

ofcourse we view that Israel has a right to exist
but the rights of the modern nation state of Israel are the same rights as any other nation Satae

Rhamiel said:

God has gathered His people together
He has gathered His people into the Church

religious Zionism is not an acceptable view within Catholicism

the Church is the Biblical Israel

ofcourse we view that Israel has a right to exist
but the rights of the modern nation state of Israel are the same rights as any other nation Satae

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Absolutely.

Open Heart said:

Pope Francis called the refusal to recognize the State of Israel anti-Semitic,

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Great. I'd expect nothing less.

Do you agree with our Pope that Palestine has a right to exist also..?

laternonjuror said:

Christ tells me, Love God and thy neighbour as thyself.
I can't say that attitude motivates the state of Israel, can you?
Did Christ leave them out of the reckoning?

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Israel is to Jews what Saudi Arabia is to Muslims. And Saudi Arabia is far worse than Israel when it comes to human rights. But Scripture says that God's gift of land for the Jews does not become invalidated by any actual or imagined sin of the Jewish people. So the sins of the Jews is irrelevant to the topic of whether or not the Jews have a God-given right to the land which they possess. Actually, the land that God gave to them extends far beyond what the Jews currently hold.

Open Heart said:

Yes. I am for a two state solution. However, I wouldn't grant Palestine a state until they agree that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state.

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And Israel would then be denied a state until they formally acknowledge palestines right to exist and get the settlements out?

And of course the borders need to be worked out.

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borders have already been worked out.

Rhamiel said:

God has gathered His people together
He has gathered His people into the Church

religious Zionism is not an acceptable view within Catholicism

the Church is the Biblical Israel

ofcourse we view that Israel has a right to exist
but the rights of the modern nation state of Israel are the same rights as any other nation Satae

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It is true that the Church is the new Israel. But the promises that God made to the people of the Old Covenant remain.

Open Heart said:

Israel already acknowledges the Palestinian's right to exist. Israel is going for a two state solution, although there are extremist groups that disagree. The settlements are part of the disputes over borders. Israel doesn't want the 1967 borders.

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No, they are a defacto statement that Palestine has no right to exist.

But even if the settlements end up inside of the State of Palestine, why would there be a problem with that?

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Does that really need answering?

Open Heart said:

Yes. I am for a two state solution. However, I wouldn't grant Palestine a state until they agree that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state.

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I think that is an unfair demand. Palestine has already recognized Israel and I think would be willing to sign a piece of paper recognizing that if given sovereignty along the 48 borders, or maybe even the 67 borders, including a capitol in East Jerusalem, which they once had.

However, Palestine should not be required to recognize Israel as a specifically Jewish state, because if they did so they would be selling out all the Arab Muslims and Christians who have lived there since before the Jews came back and who are supposed to be full citizens of Israel. Israel claims to be a western style democracy at times, or implies it, in order to win western support and western money. Many Arabs within the old Israeli borders who are citizens (Residents of Gaza and the West Bank don't have citizenship, but Arabs in the areas not taken in war who just happened to be there and their children in sort of the Jewish Israeli heartland do) feel that their rights are not fully respected and that Israel officially identifying as a Jewish state subverts it's democratic trappings. Remember Netanyahu's racist warnings to his followers on election day bemoaning Arab citizens of Israel voting in elections they had every legal and ethical right to vote in?

So, the Palestinians will recognize Israel as a country, but not that it has an officially Jewish character. I don't understand why this is a problem for Israel. It's like they are sticking in requirements for peace randomly to make sure that the Palestinians don't sign on so they can continue their illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and poor treatment of the people there. In theory, there's no reason why after borders are negotiated, that Israel and Palestine couldn't just recognize each other's countries without the Jews affirming Palestine as an officially Muslim state or the Palestinians affirming Israel as an officially Jewish state. That they recognize each other countries should be enough- and on that point, Palistine does recognize Israel, and it is Israel who will not recognize Palestine.

Open Heart said:

Israel already acknowledges the Palestinian's right to exist. Israel is going for a two state solution,

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Israel's Prime Minister, Netanyahu, said during his recent re-election campaign that he was not going for a two-state solution (He backed off that after he won, in words, but his actions during his extensive stints as Prime Minister I think demonstrate that what he said during the campaign is likely his true stance and not what he says to try not to burn his bridges with the west), a stance which implicitly does not recognize Palestine's right to exist. The policy of pushing new Jewish setlements into Palestinian territory against the will of the people there and their governments to the extent they have them is a blatant provocation that ignores any claims to Palestinian sovereignty and is hoping to basically crowd them out by importing Jews and them saying "Well, gee, now it's majority Jewish, so too bad". Israel is behaving deplorably on this.

Open Heart said:

I'm both a Catholic and a religious zionist

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Open Heart said:

This is where criticism of Israel get crazy and antisemitic, because it has no basis in reality anymore.

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Don't you think being a religious zionist may bias you a bit when it comes to determining what criticism of Israel does and doesn't have a basis in reality?

Open Heart said:

This is silly. There are already Muslims and Christians who are fullblown citizens of the Jewish state of Israel. They are no threat to the State. OTOH, one must ask, given all the Christian, Muslim, and Buddhist nations in the world, why is it so unthinkable to have one small Jewish state? Let's count how many Muslim nations there are.... do you really think we need one more?

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The Muslims who live there seem to think so.

Open Heart said:

This is silly. There are already Muslims and Christians who are fullblown citizens of the Jewish state of Israel. They are no threat to the State. OTOH, one must ask, given all the Christian, Muslim, and Buddhist nations in the world, why is it so unthinkable to have one small Jewish state? Let's count how many Muslim nations there are.... do you really think we need one more?

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The reason why the world doesn't like it is because God Himself promised the land to the Jews, and the world is in rebellion against anything that is the will of God. That's why the world is always so quick to call Israel evil but couldn't care less about the extreme abuses against human rights that go on in a place like Saudi Arabia. Think about how Christians and other non-Muslims are treated there.

Open Heart said:

This is silly. There are already Muslims and Christians who are fullblown citizens of the Jewish state of Israel. They are no threat to the State. OTOH, one must ask, given all the Christian, Muslim, and Buddhist nations in the world, why is it so unthinkable to have one small Jewish state? Let's count how many Muslim nations there are.... do you really think we need one more?

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I'd much prefer Palestine be set up as a secular state as well.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a single state that is officially and in practice a religious state where that's a good thing.