What's so bad about the Book of Mormon?

fatboys said:

Paul being the same one who told women to. E silent in chur hmô

Any open minded person who will read the Book of Mormon is not going to come away with your conclusions. You say you have read the entire book. Perhaps you have but I have communicated with hundreds like your self who claim they have read it but in inquiring more come to find out that they had only read selected passages from websites that literally hate Mormons. Since you say you have read it then do you think the part about Brigham Young riding a white buffalo into the Salt Lake valley was over the top or believable?

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I hear the anti-Mormon website line a lot but I find that a reading of the church's own essays are pretty damning in and of themselves. I don't have much respect for Joseph Smith, personally.

drstevej said:

^^^ Not the approach Paul commended.

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[citation needed]

Zoness said:

I hear the anti-Mormon website line a lot but I find that a reading of the church's own essays are pretty damning in and of themselves. I don't have much respect for Joseph Smith, personally.

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Again you are not reahding but a small portion of church history that is presented to make the church look bad. You do not like the church and are not open minded to anything except negative. If what we teach is true, that their has been a restoration of of ancient teachings and organization then don't you think that a sincere person would at least try to be open minded.

I find the whole idea that God--who has been wanting us to know Him, who made a world, a galaxy, just for us, who allowed His only Son to become human--to die for us, as a way to keep us with Him, who chose only specific people to impart His knowledge of us and to tell us and show us the way to be with Him--is somehow not capable of protecting that very knowledge, His own words, to be a view of God as being inept.
He had allowed His words to be controlled by one group for a long time, but it never disappeared without there being those to keep it going. That's Elijah thinking he was the only faithful one--but God ALLWAYS had a remnant. He always protected His word, intact, despite all of Satan's efforts to wipe them out. He is not going to allow anyone to interfere with His plans. Interpretation of those words maybe our human problem of communication, but for whole doctrines, and salvation issues to be wiped out--not going to happen. He told Moses the History of the world as He thought we needed to know, 4000 years later He decides we need to know more about that past that He allowed to be buried??? That is completely inconsistent with His love for us. Not a question if being open minded--it's more about believing who and what God is.

fatboys said:

Again you are not reahding but a small portion of church history that is presented to make the church look bad. You do not like the church and are not open minded to anything except negative. If what we teach is true, that their has been a restoration of of ancient teachings and organization then don't you think that a sincere person would at least try to be open minded.

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Hey, I now claim that I am the Emperor of the Zyxifloxian Empire that spans the galaxy and I graciously offer you a place in my court. All you need to do is pay me $1000000 for the privilege! If what I say is true, then you have the chance for untold luxury and a life in ease! Don't you think that a sincere person would at least try to be open minded?

RhaegarTargaryen said:

Hey, I now claim that I am the Emperor of the Zyxifloxian Empire that spans the galaxy and I graciously offer you a place in my court. All you need to do is pay me $1000000 for the privilege! If what I say is true, then you have the chance for untold luxury and a life in ease! Don't you think that a sincere person would at least try to be open minded?

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Tell me O great one how do I know you are who you say you are? There are many who say the same thing as you. Do you have proof you are the real thing?

mmksparbud said:

I find the whole idea that God--who has been wanting us to know Him, who made a world, a galaxy, just for us, who allowed His only Son to become human--to die for us, as a way to keep us with Him, who chose only specific people to impart His knowledge of us and to tell us and show us the way to be with Him--is somehow not capable of protecting that very knowledge, His own words, to be a view of God as being inept.
He had allowed His words to be controlled by one group for a long time, but it never disappeared without there being those to keep it going. That's Elijah thinking he was the only faithful one--but God ALLWAYS had a remnant. He always protected His word, intact, despite all of Satan's efforts to wipe them out. He is not going to allow anyone to interfere with His plans. Interpretation of those words maybe our human problem of communication, but for whole doctrines, and salvation issues to be wiped out--not going to happen. He told Moses the History of the world as He thought we needed to know, 4000 years later He decides we need to know more about that past that He allowed to be buried??? That is completely inconsistent with His love for us. Not a question if being open minded--it's more about believing who and what God is.

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Then would a God that is all powerful create a imperfect creation. Isn't God perfect? If God created something imperfect would he still be perfect? When God created lucifer did he know he was creating evil or imperfection? Did God who is all powerful and knowing the past present and future create Adam and Eve perfect to stay in the Garden and then stand by to allow his other perfect creation destroy his plan. Here, as you believe, that this all powerful God who created everything from nothing would allow his creations to be more powerful than himself. And you believe that God would prevent his word from being corrupted?

fatboys said:

Then would a God that is all powerful create a imperfect creation. Isn't God perfect? If God created something imperfect would he still be perfect? When God created lucifer did he know he was creating evil or imperfection? Did God who is all powerful and knowing the past present and future create Adam and Eve perfect to stay in the Garden and then stand by to allow his other perfect creation destroy his plan. Here, as you believe, that this all powerful God who created everything from nothing would allow his creations to be more powerful than himself. And you believe that God would prevent his word from being corrupted?

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Nothing destroys the plan of God. He does not a have an army of robots controlled by remote. No matter the choices made, God doesn't run out of ways to get His will done. Nothing and no one is more powerful than He. God has never used sheets of gold for His prophets to write on. He uses the lowly, the humble things and people. His material of choice for His 10 commandments, written by His own hand, was not on silver or gold or even copper--but stone.

fatboys said:

If what we teach is true, that their has been a restoration of of ancient teachings and organization then don't you think that a sincere person would at least try to be open minded.

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Let's assume for a minute that it is a restoration of ancient teachings and organization, and leave aside the question of whether or not Joseph Smith had the divine authority to do this. Do we really want to go back to antiquity? As a woman, I sure don't want to! I want a religion that is progressive, not regressive.

mmksparbud said:

He told Moses the History of the world as He thought we needed to know, 4000 years later He decides we need to know more about that past that He allowed to be buried??? That is completely inconsistent with His love for us. Not a question if being open minded--it's more about believing who and what God is.

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You realize there is no evidence that Moses wrote Genesis? Nothing in the Bible indicates that he did and academic scholarship clearly indicates that he did not. In fact most scholars believe it was written 2500 years ago, not 4000.
If Moses did write Genesis, what language did he write it in? Hieroglyphics? Because Paleo-Hebrew script only goes back to around 1000 B.C.

mmksparbud said:

He uses the lowly, the humble things and people. His material of choice for His 10 commandments, written by His own hand, was not on silver or gold or even copper--but stone.

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The Ark of the Covenant was not exactly lowly or humble.

"According to the Book of Exodus, Hashem instructed Moses on Mount Sinai during his 40-day stay upon the mountain within the thick cloud and darkness where God was[15][16] and he was shown the pattern for the tabernacle and furnishings of the Ark to be made of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood to house the Tablets of Stone. Moses instructed Bezalel and Oholiab to construct the Ark.[17][18] In Deuteronomy, however, the Ark is said to have been built specifically by Moses himself without reference of Bezalel or Oholiab.[19]

The Book of Exodus gives detailed instructions on how the Ark is to be constructed. It is to be 2½ cubits in length, 1½ in breadth, and 1½ in height (approximately 131×79×79 cm or 52×31×31 in). Then it is to be plated entirely with gold, and a crown or molding of gold is to be put around it. Four rings of gold are to be attached to its four feet—two on each side—and through these rings staves of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim-wood overlaid with gold for carrying the Ark are to be inserted; and these are not to be removed.[20] A golden cover, a kapporet (traditionally "Mercy Seat" in Christian translations) adorned with golden cherubim, is to be placed above the Ark."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_Covenant#Construction_and_description

smaneck said:

Let's assume for a minute that it is a restoration of ancient teachings and organization, and leave aside the question of whether or not Joseph Smith had the divine authority to do this. Do we really want to go back to antiquity? As a woman, I sure don't want to! I want a religion that is progressive, not regressive.

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^^This, basically.

Aside from the whole "obvious fraud"-issue.

smaneck said:

...If Moses did write Genesis, what language did he write it in? Hieroglyphics? Because Paleo-Hebrew script only goes back to around 1000 B.C.

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I'm getting off-topic, but I invite you to check out the Ugaritic language, the very Hebrew-like language used by Israel's northern neighbor. It dates back to 1400 BC. While it didn't use Hebrew characters the two languages share much, including words, poetry, and even names of deities.

Here's more: https://www.logos.com/Ugaritic

One shared Hebrew/Ugaritic belief even shows up as late the New Testament, when Jesus claimed to be the cloud-walker of Daniel 7. Even as far back as Ugarit, only deities in the ANE walked on clouds. Fascinating stuff, imo.

If you want to pursue this we can start a separate thread.

smaneck said:

Let's assume for a minute that it is a restoration of ancient teachings and organization, and leave aside the question of whether or not Joseph Smith had the divine authority to do this. Do we really want to go back to antiquity? As a woman, I sure don't want to! I want a religion that is progressive, not regressive.

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Actually, the church has been pretty darn progressive when it comes to womens' issues.

Among other things:

1. The Relief Society is (IIRC) the oldest continuous womens' auxiliary in North America.

2. The Utah Territory was one of the first places in the nation to allow women the right to vote, with the state serving as a major staging area for the womens' suffrage movement in the late 1800s (sadly, one of the later federal anti-polygamy laws stripped this right on the grounds that the general tendency of Mormon women to vote for polygamy was "proof" that women were too incompetent to be trusted with it).

3. Some of the first female medical doctors in the nation were Mormon plural wives, with their sister wives agreeing to take a greater share of the household chores so that they could go to school.

4. Emma Smith herself was given the task of selecting and compiling hymns for the official church hymn book, and Eliza R. Snow would contribute no less than 10 songs to the hymnal (including numerous songs that are major favorites to this day).

Most of the claptrap you're hearing about is either leftover moral panic from the opposition to plural marriage, leftover moral panic from the equal rights amendment, or faux outrage created by people trying to be famous by any means necessary.

Interesting. It looks like it is using cuneiform symbols as an alphabet following the abjad system. By the way, abjad is used for numerological purposes to this day.

ChetSinger said:

I'm getting off-topic, but I invite you to check out the Ugaritic language, the very Hebrew-like language used by Israel's northern neighbor. It dates back to 1400 BC. While it didn't use Hebrew characters the two languages share much, including words, poetry, and even names of deities.

Here's more: https://www.logos.com/Ugaritic

One shared Hebrew/Ugaritic belief even shows up as late the New Testament, when Jesus claimed to be the cloud-walker of Daniel 7. Even as far back as Ugarit, only deities in the ANE walked on clouds. Fascinating stuff, imo.

If you want to pursue this we can start a separate thread.

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Ironhold said:

Actually, the church has been pretty darn progressive when it comes to womens' issues.

Among other things:

1. The Relief Society is (IIRC) the oldest continuous womens' auxiliary in North America.

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Here's the thing. Women today don't want to be auxiliaries to men.

2. The Utah Territory was one of the first places in the nation to allow women the right to vote, with the state serving as a major staging area for the womens' suffrage movement in the late 1800s

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True, but they couldn't hold office.

3. Some of the first female medical doctors in the nation were Mormon plural wives, with their sister wives agreeing to take a greater share of the household chores so that they could go to school.

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That oftentimes happens in polygamous Muslim marriages as well.

Most of the claptrap you're hearing about is either leftover moral panic from the opposition to plural marriage, leftover moral panic from the equal rights amendment, or faux outrage created by people trying to be famous by any means necessary.

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Polygamy might not be a problem if it went both ways. But if it is only the men who get multiple partners then I think it always ends with women being subservient. I didn't realize the LDS church opposed the Equal Rights Amendment until you mentioned. For me, the biggest issue is women not being allowed into the priesthood.

mmksparbud said:

Nothing destroys the plan of God. He does not a have an army of robots controlled by remote. No matter the choices made, God doesn't run out of ways to get His will done. Nothing and no one is more powerful than He. God has never used sheets of gold for His prophets to write on. He uses the lowly, the humble things and people. His material of choice for His 10 commandments, written by His own hand, was not on silver or gold or even copper--but stone.

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God created Adam and Eve perfect. If God creates something imperfect then is he still perfect? If God created Adam and Eve perfect then why did the disobey? The robot thing is old and does not explain if God knew before Adam and Eve were going to disobey since he knows all things

smaneck said:

The Ark of the Covenant was not exactly lowly or humble.

"According to the Book of Exodus, Hashem instructed Moses on Mount Sinai during his 40-day stay upon the mountain within the thick cloud and darkness where God was[15][16] and he was shown the pattern for the tabernacle and furnishings of the Ark to be made of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood to house the Tablets of Stone. Moses instructed Bezalel and Oholiab to construct the Ark.[17][18] In Deuteronomy, however, the Ark is said to have been built specifically by Moses himself without reference of Bezalel or Oholiab.[19]

The Book of Exodus gives detailed instructions on how the Ark is to be constructed. It is to be 2½ cubits in length, 1½ in breadth, and 1½ in height (approximately 131×79×79 cm or 52×31×31 in). Then it is to be plated entirely with gold, and a crown or molding of gold is to be put around it. Four rings of gold are to be attached to its four feet—two on each side—and through these rings staves of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim-wood overlaid with gold for carrying the Ark are to be inserted; and these are not to be removed.[20] A golden cover, a kapporet (traditionally "Mercy Seat" in Christian translations) adorned with golden cherubim, is to be placed above the Ark."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_Covenant#Construction_and_description

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Apples and oranges. The ark is a far different thing from a book--the ark housed the God of this universe--He was there between the cherubim; It contained the stone tablets. God just did not find it necessary to have the history of this world written on gold. The temple was not humble either, these are houses of God---however, none of God's verbal instructions were ever written on gold. And you know what---I don't care who wrote what--except that it was what God said. It was handed down and copied many times--never on gold-- and the dead sea scrolls proved them accurate still.

fatboys said:

God created Adam and Eve perfect. If God creates something imperfect then is he still perfect? If God created Adam and Eve perfect then why did the disobey? The robot thing is old and does not explain if God knew before Adam and Eve were going to disobey since he knows all things

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This has been said many times over--they have free will--God has allowed sin to now run it's course to show the whole universe the end result of sin. No one will ever again disobey--not out of fear of Him--out of horror for what is the end result---separation from Him and suffering.

mmksparbud said:

Apples and oranges. The ark is a far different thing from a book--the ark housed the God of this universe--He was there between the cherubim; It contained the stone tablets. God just did not find it necessary to have the history of this world written on gold. The temple was not humble either, these are houses of God---however, none of God's verbal instructions were ever written on gold. And you know what---I don't care who wrote what--except that it was what God said. It was handed down and copied many times--never on gold-- and the dead sea scrolls proved them accurate still.

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My point is that the issue of whether or not God revealed messages on gold tablets has nothing whatsoever to do with being humble and lowly.