are lutherans cessaniosts?

FireDragon76 · May 23, 2015

I am just wondering what the position is of the ELCA, if there is one, regarding cessasionism. Also, any widely held opinions would be welcome as well.

I am not a cessasionist. I believe the Holy Spirit continues to give spiritual gifts. I do not necessarily describe myself as "charismatic" however, as a lot of that style of worship does not appeal to me- I'm a liturgical Christian. I am formerly Eastern Orthodox and it would be impossible for me to reconcile myself with cessationism. And I've been involved with Episcopalian parishes influenced by the charismatic renewal movement, it would be difficult for me to dismiss it as a fad.

One thing that does concern me is that I haven't encountered a lot of theology about the Holy Spirit and how he relates to the Church's self understanding. In Orthodoxy, ecclesiology and pneumatology cannot be separated. Indeed, I am not even sure that my understanding of the Church is Protestant (though, I do not believe the Orthodox's canonical boundaries are the totality of "The Church".), and this concerns me. My own private theology of the Holy Spirit also relates to how I view the Bible (I am not a Biblicist- I tend to agree with Barth that the Bible points to revelation more than itself being revelation).

I am not here to argue against Lutheran beliefs are wrong just to dialogue and find out more about Lutheran attitudes.

Obedientiarius · May 23, 2015

Lutherans aren't usually known for having the most Spirit-centered spirituality or theology. LOL

I think the best place to start in your investigations on this question would be with Luther's Large Catechism, specifically where he goes over the Apostles' Creed: http://bookofconcord.org/lc-4-creed.php

FireDragon76 · May 23, 2015

I do like the healing services I've been to at Independent Catholic and Episcopalian churches. I've even seen a few I believe were healed by it. In terms of the feelings I get there, I tend to feel God is nearer than in the regular services, there is a lot of grace to be found just sitting there and praying with the priest.

That's the kind of stuff I like. The more charismatic worship happy-clappy stuff, not so much.

Obedientiarius · May 23, 2015

Have no fear, healing services exist in Luther-land too!

Tangible · May 30, 2015

This might be interesting to you:

http://weedon.blogspot.com/2008/09/anointing-of-sick.html
http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2012/06/sacrament-of-sick.html
https://www.lutheranreport.com/?&q=sick&page=1

FireDragon76 · May 31, 2015

I'm gathering that Lutherans don't consider themselves cessationists, but traditionally the Holy Spirit was seen as having a narrow role in Lutheran religious life?

Tangible · Jun 1, 2015

More like, Lutherans have an orthodox view of pneumatology, and are not deceived by entertainment-based mystical showmanship performed to deceive poor sinners and steal their money.

FireDragon76 · Jun 4, 2015

I don't believe all the charismatic movement can be dismissed as showmanship. Some of it seems strange to me, and I don't normally tend to go for that ecstatic type spirituality. On the other hand, some of it seems consistent with what we find in the New Testament.

I also wonder about how the operations of the Holy Spirit are understood in Lutheran thought. I have experienced the Holy Spirit many times. Some times in "conversion" type experiences, but usually not. I did not speak in tongues but at different times I've felt guided to do things or to pray for people. And I've been involved in charismatic worship services where I'm convinced people had genuine supernatural gifts from God (particularly knowledge of what seems unlikely for them to know except through the Holy Spirit).

Yet from what I have read about in Lutheranism so far, it sounds like the Holy Spirit is mostly understood as convicting people of sin and working in the hearts of believers concurrent with justification. I believe that's a very minimalist view of the Holy Spirit's role.

Tigger45 · Jun 4, 2015

Just so happens that this coming Sunday June 7th we are going to start a series on the Holy Spirit and I believe the gifts pertaining to Him. Typically within the week after a sermon has been preached they upload the audio to their website. If it looks like something you would be interested in I'll send you the link via PM.

FireDragon76 · Jun 4, 2015

Sure, that would be fine. I'd like to hear the sermon.

Tangible · Jun 6, 2015

Lutheran Pneumatology is best summed up in the words of the creeds.

The Nicene Creed "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and giver of life ..." etc.

The Apostle's Creed "I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

From the Small Catechism - "What does this mean?--Answer.

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true."

More depth given in the Large Catechism: http://bookofconcord.org/lc-4-creed.php#para34

Lutherans are all about certainty. We have an alarm that goes off when anything is being touted as being of God when it may just as well be coming from another source. Lutherans have a basic theology that states that we only look for God where he has told us he will be found, and that he can always be found in his Word and Sacraments because that is where he has promised in holy scripture to be found. God may come to us through other means, but we have no way of knowing for certain whether a feeling, a voice in our heads, or the voice of another person are truly of God. Feelings are notoriously unreliable. Voices in our heads may be our own inner monologue, our imagination, or an agent of darkness masquerading as an agent of light. Other people are also sinners and prone to trying to be seen as important or special, leading others astray and following after their own misunderstandings and delusions. There is a reason that the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches are rife with heretical and spiritually harmful teachings.

We look for certainty. We depend on that which is dependable. We trust what is trustworthy. We know that God comes to us and speaks to us through his Word and Sacraments and that's enough for us. The grace he has given us is sufficient.

FireDragon76 · Jun 8, 2015

I found a quote by Martin Chemnitz that suggests cessationism:

How then do the Tridentine fathers promise to restore the function of exorcists the way it was in the ancient church, since they do not have and are not able to bestow the gift of casting out demons? In the ancient church there were prophets or seers, and also evangelists, as Eusebius testifies, Bk. 3, ch. 37. How silly it would be to make particular orders in the church of these offices, although these gifts have ceased! That is also how matters stand with the exorcists. - Examination of the Council of Trent, Part II [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1978]

That's from David Jay Webber's website collection of Lutheran theology. http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.bugenluthchempossession.html

From what I am gathering, Roman Catholics of the same time period tended to be "cessationists" as well, to the same degree. Men like Savanarola that claimed to be prophets were suppressed in the Roman church, in no small part because the claim to direct access to God disturbed their hierarchical view of the Church.

I have to be up-front, I consider myself somewhat of a continuationist, though I'm on the fence as to whether speaking in tongues in the modern Pentecostal sense is what is being discussed in the New Testament. I've never spoken in tongues and never really felt it was important to do so. My understanding is that in some charismatic circles its less emphasized.

I believe it is possible to have prophetic gifts , healing, and so on, and for those things to not be merely confirmations of the Gospel, but just normal parts of Christian life faithfully lived in some circumstances. The reason I believe they have not had a more noticeable place in our Christian life in the west is because I believe much of our religion, for hundreds of years, was nominal/lukewarm.

This website discusses charismatic gifts in the modern history of the LCMS, comparing it to historical Lutheran understandings: http://postcessationisttheology.blogspot.com/2011/04/william-arndt-on-mark-16.html I found the discussion of healing ministry, along with more sophisticated views of baptismal regeneration, with the Pietist movement enlightening.

ViaCrucis · Jun 13, 2015

I would certainly not have issue with God using someone to miraculously heal. What I don't have faith in are "faith healers", people who, quite famously, have large "healing ministries" where people come in droves (and often, but not always, televised) to hear and watch a charlatan sell his snake oil to wrest every last mite from every poor widow.

The world is full of hospitals, nursing homes, and various clinics where people are sick, hurting, and dying. So if someone really does have a supernatural gift for healing, there are certainly many places where they can go and not rip people off and make a name for themselves doing it.

And to that end, I'd say that the very existence of such hospitals, nursing homes, clinics etc--those run by churches--are very much doing the Lord's healing work among the sick and the hurting, and theirs indeed is the gift and ministry of healing. To that end I think we should look to the hospitals, clinics, etc to see where the Holy Spirit is at work, because He's definitely not at these large scale auditoriums functioning as centers of cult worship toward the latest Peter Popoff.

-CryptoLutheran

FireDragon76 · Jun 13, 2015

VC, you are aware most mainline denominations have charismatic congregations? What is your opinion of this? My understanding is this phenomenon is somewhat distinct from the outside Pentecostal/Neo-Charismatic movement.

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