How 'bout them Duggars?

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
669
✟43,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There are some people claiming things about our current president, but nothing about smalll children.

They'd want a Republican's head on a platter. The only major news network that is hard on Democrats in the US is Fox. Fox is always negative toward liberals, you know, to be fair and balanced. Clinton weathered a scandal. Most of the media outlets like liberals and stuff slides off of Clinton or Obama so that there is no media uprising, except for Fox news talk radio, and web pages.
 
Upvote 0

grandvizier1006

I don't use this anymore, but I still follow Jesus
Site Supporter
Dec 2, 2014
5,976
2,599
28
MS
✟664,118.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I read something today about this...IF this sort of thing had come out about our sitting president, that he had done this same sort of thing as a young teenager, people would be calling for his head on a platter, his resignation from office, finding a way to file charges against him for that crime...yet because it's a man from a "good Christian" family, he gets a pass because he claims he accepted Christ and was forgiven.

Double standards?
Ok, you may have a good point there. Maybe I wasn't looking at this the right way. But I can assure you that I'd like to see him get justice, too?
 
Upvote 0

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟64,923.00
Country
France
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I Corinthians 6
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NIV)
Looks to me like the NIV version has undergone some kind of update there. So women are okay to have sex with women?
 
Upvote 0

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟64,923.00
Country
France
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
There are some people claiming things about our current president, but nothing about smalll children.

They'd want a Republican's head on a platter. The only major news network that is hard on Democrats in the US is Fox. Fox is always negative toward liberals, you know, to be fair and balanced. Clinton weathered a scandal. Most of the media outlets like liberals and stuff slides off of Clinton or Obama so that there is no media uprising, except for Fox news talk radio, and web pages.
LOL @ Fox is fair and balanced.

I don't think you get out much LinkH. And this is not the American Politics forum, btw.
 
Upvote 0

grandvizier1006

I don't use this anymore, but I still follow Jesus
Site Supporter
Dec 2, 2014
5,976
2,599
28
MS
✟664,118.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Looks to me like the NIV version has undergone some kind of update there. So women are okay to have sex with women?
Actually, that's what the verse has always said. Paul similarly condemns lesbian sex in Romans 1. Sometimes the Bible admittedly appears "male-centric" to us.
 
Upvote 0

ImaginaryDay

We Live Here
Mar 24, 2012
4,200
791
Fawlty Towers
✟30,199.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Separated
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Actually, that's what the verse has always said. Paul similarly condemns lesbian sex in Romans 1. Sometimes the Bible admittedly appears "male-centric" to us.

The NASB covers it with "homosexuals" in the same verse. :sorry:
 
Upvote 0

ImaginaryDay

We Live Here
Mar 24, 2012
4,200
791
Fawlty Towers
✟30,199.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Separated
Politics
CA-Conservatives
And, btw, just an amusing "factoid" - I Corinthians 6 addresses members of the church going to law courts with personal lawsuits, not persons charged with crimes resolving molestation issues by going to Pastors and Elders. For those who are "Sola Scriptura", they sure don't show it much sometimes...
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
669
✟43,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And, btw, just an amusing "factoid" - I Corinthians 6 addresses members of the church going to law courts with personal lawsuits, not persons charged with crimes resolving molestation issues by going to Pastors and Elders. For those who are "Sola Scriptura", they sure don't show it much sometimes...

I'm the one who mentioned that scripture, and also stated that it was about lawsuits if you'll check the thread. But the general principle in that passage does apply to the issue of whether you should get the state involved in your life if you have a choice. At least it's something to consider.

I don't think I've ever even mentioned 'sola scriptura' on the years I've been on CF. Usually Reformed folks do that.
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
669
✟43,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Looks to me like the NIV version has undergone some kind of update there. So women are okay to have sex with women?

Lesbianism is referred to in Romans 1. IMO, the current translation is probably closer to the Greek, since the word 'arsenokoite' is probably taken from Greek translations of the Old Testament against a man lying with a man as one does with a woman '....arsenos koiten.....'.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
669
✟43,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But he did it. Period. You should start a separate thread about this, because it has no bearing on what Josh Duggar actually did. To minimize that offense by saying "someone else might not do it ..." is pretty offensive actually.

There shouldn't be anything about it. The Duggar story points out that anyone accused of something nasty as a child could have a police report floating around the press could get ahold of. If the child is guilty, the news coming out is natural consequences. Duggar admitted wrongdoing. But if a child is innocent, the state doesn't protect his identity like it does victims, even though perpetrators and those accused are even more stigmatized. The falsely accused are victims, too.
 
Upvote 0

Hetta

I'll find my way home
Jun 21, 2012
16,925
4,875
the here and now
✟64,923.00
Country
France
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
There shouldn't be anything about it. The Duggar story points out that anyone accused of something nasty as a child could have a police report floating around the press could get ahold of. If the child is guilty, the news coming out is natural consequences. Duggar admitted wrongdoing. But if a child is innocent, the state doesn't protect his identity like it does victims, even though perpetrators and those accused are even more stigmatized. The falsely accused are victims, too.
It doesn't apply in this case, so it's a topic for a different thread.
 
Upvote 0

ImaginaryDay

We Live Here
Mar 24, 2012
4,200
791
Fawlty Towers
✟30,199.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Separated
Politics
CA-Conservatives
But the general principle in that passage does apply to the issue of whether you should get the state involved in your life if you have a choice. At least it's something to consider.

The general principle has nothing to do with what Paul was addressing. He was in a pagan culture, and believers were taking frivolous lawsuits to civil courts. Hard stop. Sometimes, there is no "whether we should", they just do, like it or not.

I don't think I've ever even mentioned 'sola scriptura' on the years I've been on CF. Usually Reformed folks do that.

I don't recall that you have either. But in some cases you appeal to scripture and take a hard line (i.e. divorce, remarriage), and in some cases it's negotiable, such as here. Just trying to figure you out. Either way, it appears it's based on what suits you and the church culture you live in.
 
Upvote 0

WalksWithChrist

Seeking God's Will
Jan 5, 2005
22,847
1,352
USA
Visit site
✟38,526.00
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Married
How old are the victims now? This was about a decade ago, after all. Now that they're older they probably know exactly what happened to them and why it was wrong, even if ol' Jim Bob tries to tell them everything has been settled. Didn't they find out about this thing when one of the girls hid a note and smuggled it to Oprah's crew or whatever? So whoever she was she must have known exactly what had happened. In a few years the victims will be adults and can press charges independently. I guess they could do it now, too, but I figured that the Duggar parents could intervene somehow as long as the victims are legally minors. I'm not quite sure how all that works, though, seeing as how I've never had to press charges against anyone. In this case I figured it was Jim Bob that was controlling the victims more so than Josh, who to me just seems to be ashamed at having ben caught.
I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.
 
Upvote 0

grandvizier1006

I don't use this anymore, but I still follow Jesus
Site Supporter
Dec 2, 2014
5,976
2,599
28
MS
✟664,118.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I really don't understand what you're trying to say here.
Well, I'll admit I might have posted that at night, so it might be a bit incoherent.:doh: I think I was trying to say is that the victims should be able to press charges on their own, either now or in a few years when they're adults, but I'm not entirely sure.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

WalksWithChrist

Seeking God's Will
Jan 5, 2005
22,847
1,352
USA
Visit site
✟38,526.00
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Married
Hey, now, calm down. Don't lump me in with whatever stereotypes you have, that's condescending and insulting to me. I think the Duggars are weird and crazy, too, so at least we agree on that much! :D

I can guarantee you that if I had kids I wouldn't sit by and react the way Josh's parents did. Most of us wouldn't make our daughters think it was their fault, or given our sons a slap on the wrist with a gentle cop if they did this.

It's kind of awkward to say, but yes, child molestors and sexual predators are human beings, too. Behind their despicable acts is some sort of twisted, warped motive that clouds their judgment.

God calls on us to deliver justice and speak up for those who are opressed. Granted, that tends to be executed in a bit of a cumbersome manner by a lot of Christians, but opressed people would include the victims. I don't think there's anything wrong with seeing that this guy gets prosecuted or something, or that these girls are given some autonomy and protection from their Gotherdite parents. Maybe child protective services could take all the kids after an investigation.

But at the same time, this was not recent, like a lot of scandals like this. It was ten years ago. While the victims probably still have the mental scars, isn't there a chance that Josh was able to reform himself? If he had gone on to molest his own children or his wife, do you think the show would have been able to hide it? Probably not, they would have cancelled the show much more quickly if that had happened, or perhaps never started it at all if they had just a bit of suspicion. My point is he probably isn't as depraved as he used to be.

And one major aspect of Christian ideology is the idea that people came forgiven and reform themselves, no matter how messed up. And yet secular society seems to have this other motto: "everything is fine and forgivable to some degree unless it's terrorism or child molestation, in which case you're going to rot in proverbial Hell without any forgiveness."

It's like there's this hierarchy of sins in our modern world. But to God there is no hierarchy, whatsoever. I'm not saying that crimes should all get the same sentences, or that we should treat everyone with the same amount of contempt regardless of whatever bad things they do, but I think that as Christians we can't treat a person as if they have done this one terrible, unforgivable thing, since God looks at all of,our sins the same way we see Josh's-- as sick, depraved acts that destroy their victims, although in some cases the perpetrator and the victim are one and the same (not here, of course). so I think there's hypocrisy on both sides here--it's wrong for Josh to be worried about gay people molesting kids when that's what he did, but it's also hypocritical for people to look upon child molestation as the worst type of crime possible, when in God's eyes there is no worst crime--it's all worthy of death and in need of redemption and grace. And it seems to me that as misguided as he is, Josh eventually got God's grace, although if I'm wrong and his faith is just a ruse for political influence, which might be possible, then I'd acknowledge that.

I say he's gotten unfair treatment because this happened years ago and yet people are talking about it like it happened yesterday, and because some people genuinely enjoy seeing Christians behave hypocritically because it gives the impression that the entire Christian faith is undermined by the acts of one person. Most of it is pretty deserved, though. He resigned, the show is gone, etc. eventually the victims will be freed from their parents and it will be decided what happens. If he goes to trial, then even though he'd probably get convicted, this would stay in the media longer, which I don't think anyone would want.

And remember Michael Jackson? It was assumed he molested kids, but he was acquitted. His reputation didn't get tarnished as much as you'd think.

What would you prefer his sentence be, if tried and convicted? And do you believe there is any possibility of him getting some kind of effective counseling/reform for his issues, if they still linger?
Most stories I've heard about child molesters indicate that they do not become less depraved without serious long-term intervention. And often no intervention really helps. I remember a child molester being interviewed in prison. He said outright that if was released he would do it again.
Kind of like serial killers. They start by killing animals, and then escalate from there. Just comparing the mentalities, not saying molesters are or will become killers.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

WalksWithChrist

Seeking God's Will
Jan 5, 2005
22,847
1,352
USA
Visit site
✟38,526.00
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Married
Well, I'll admit I might have posted that at night, so it might be a bit incoherent.:doh: I think I was trying to say is that the victims should be able to press charges on their own, either now or in a few years when they're adults, but I'm not entirely sure.
Thank you. That clears it up.
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
669
✟43,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't recall that you have either. But in some cases you appeal to scripture and take a hard line (i.e. divorce, remarriage), and in some cases it's negotiable, such as here. Just trying to figure you out. Either way, it appears it's based on what suits you and the church culture you live in.

Where do you get that it is negotiable? Would first century Christians have gotten the Roman authorities involved if one kid had molested another by fondling in the home? Probably not. The head of household would have handled it, and Roman authorities would not have required that he report it. (Just my guess, btw.) There is no scripture that says, "Call the government if there is sexual impropriety in the home." If our government doesn't require parents to report, why is it wrong not to?
 
Upvote 0

LinkH

Regular Member
Jun 19, 2006
8,602
669
✟43,833.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
WalksWithChrist, if you are looking at what convicted child molesters say about their lives, then the effect of intervention is going to look pretty minimal. I can think of one guy I know who said he'd molested other kids when he was a kid. He'd had a rough childhood. But he had repented of that stuff. Most probably have met or know someone who did something like this, whether we know it or not.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ImaginaryDay

We Live Here
Mar 24, 2012
4,200
791
Fawlty Towers
✟30,199.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Separated
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Most stories I've heard about child molesters indicate that they do not become less depraved without serious long-term intervention. And often no intervention really helps. I remember a child molester being interviewed in prison. He said outright that if was released he would do it again.
Kind of like serial killers. They start by killing animals, and then escalate from there. Just comparing the mentalities, not saying molesters are or will become killers.

Well, it does appear that Josh has cleaned things up, so he has restored his character. I suspect the objection is in the 'how' of it. Christians don't get to skirt the law just because their church culture instructs them that they can.
 
Upvote 0