Mystery Babylon

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Mystery Babylon

I think Scripture identifies the four kingdoms that would reign over Israel until the time of the end. Daniel chapter two lists the four as 1. Gold=Babylon, 2. Silver=Medes & Persians, 3. Bronze=Greece, 4. Iron/Iron & Clay=Rome.

The forth kingdom would be in power at the time of the end of Daniel's people, Old Covenant Israel.

Daniel heard the time of the fulfillment:

"And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?" Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished." (Dan. 12:6-7)

He was told, after 3 1/2 years the power of his people would be completely shattered. The Jewish-Roman war lasted 3 1/2 years and then the final end came in Aug/Sep of AD 70.

This is why I believe the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 by Rome brought an end to the Old Covenant age.

If this is correct, mystery Babylon in Revelation would have referred to first century AD apostate Israel represented by Jerusalem.

Notice the words of John:
"And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!" (Rev. 18:2)

"And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:24)

Mystery Babylon, the harlot, was found guilty and judged for killing the prophets, the saints and all who were slain on the earth.

According to Scripture, who would be found guilty of killing the prophets, saints, and all who were slain on the earth?

Jesus pronounced judgment on the first century AD leaders of Israel:

"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat." (Mt. 23:1-2)

"Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt..."Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." (Mt. 23:31-32,34-36)

Jesus told His disciples when the judgment of Israel would take place:

"Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Mt. 24:34)

Again, in my opinion, the evidence within Scripture points to Israel and her two covenant ages. This eliminates any speculation that we are living in the last days, America is Babylon, the antichrist is alive now, etc.

I have found this approach to be a much more consistent method of interpretation. It is objective based on the evidence. The futurist method tends to be much more subjective and open to a wide variety of speculation.

May God bless you and the open and honest pursuit of truth.
 
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Rhamiel

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interesting

do you think it might be a bit of both?

like, the many of the Psalms speak of King David
but you can also apply them to Jesus

so maybe this Mystery Babylon, can be apostate Israel
but that parts of this could apply to the character/actions of a wicked empire near the end of time?

I do not think the USA or modern Israel is this Mystery Babylon
I think it will rise up near the End Times and it will be so horrible, any Christian, who is being led by the Spirit, will be able to see it
like there will not even be debate around Christians
 
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A New World

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interesting

do you think it might be a bit of both?

like, the many of the Psalms speak of King David
but you can also apply them to Jesus

so maybe this Mystery Babylon, can be apostate Israel
but that parts of this could apply to the character/actions of a wicked empire near the end of time?

I do not think the USA or modern Israel is this Mystery Babylon
I think it will rise up near the End Times and it will be so horrible, any Christian, who is being led by the Spirit, will be able to see it
like there will not even be debate around Christians

I agree there were things mentioned in the Old Testament that foreshadowed a later fulfillment in the New Testament.

I think the former Babylon that was conquered by the Medes foreshadowed first century AD apostate Old Covenant Israel. I find it interesting that John, in Revelation, referred to the harlot apostate Israel as Sodom, Egypt and Babylon (Rev. 11 & 17-19). These nations were once enemies of Israel, now Israel herself had become an enemy of God.

I see the context of the New Testament as the last days of the Old Covenant age. After that age ended OC Israel was destroyed and the New Covenant age was established forever. Since the current age will never end, I see no need for further fulfillment.
 
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Wgw

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For my part I see Babylon and it's earthly delights as a typological reference to the worldliness and the delights of the flesh, the carnal pursuits that one could pursue in Babylon, later Rome, later still Constantinople, Venice, lost cities on the Silk Road such as Merv, and finally, in our contemporary society. Babylon today is Los Angeles or New York or San Francisco.

But not neccessarily the cities themselves but rather the unholy fleshpots that lie within. Contrast The City of God by St. Augustine, which provided hope for the Romans as the Western Empire began to fall apart, and is indeed perhaps the reason, by virtue of its theological comfort, that St. Augustine is so over represented in Western Theology, although Augustine is a great and valuable theologian. But Western theology I think warped as a result of reading him exclusively.

Speaking of which, he in his youth practiced the Manichaen Gnostic faith, the founder of which was most likely a Mandaean. The Mandaeans are Gnostics who worship John the Baptist, view Jesus as a false prophet and the Holy Spirit as a malign being, and preserve several elements of ancient Babylonian religion, in their focus on astrology; they also baptize themselves at least every Sunday, and have many rituals akin to Zoroastrianism. So in Mandaeism, the ancient Chaldean faith survives, to an extent. Whether it will withstand the diaspora of Mandaeans around the world as a result of Islamist persecution in Iraq is another matter.

Babylon itself is not dead so much as superseded by Baghdad, just as Nineveh was replaced by Mosul. These shifts were caused by natural realignments in the course of the Tigris and Euphrates; on many occasions the alignment of Mesopotamian cities has been forcibly altered by the changing course of those rivers that enliven the Fertile Crescent. However as recently as the eigth century, Babylon was a booming metropolis, home to a diverse mix of Syriac (Christian Aramaic) speaking Christians of Orthodox and Nestorian faith, Mandaeans, indigenous pagans, hiding in the nearby swampland from Islamic persecution, and the Jewish rabbis who compiled the Babylonian Talmud. In fact the Aramaic of the Babylonian Talmud is similiar to Mandaic, which is written in a script similiar to the formal Syriac Estrangela script in which the Aramaic Peshitta, one of the oldest and most reliable translations of the Greek New Testament, is written.

Albeit Mandaic adds vowells and punctuation, which is nice, but one half of one of their main Holy Books, the Left Ginza, which deals with funerals for priests, is written backwards and upside down. The Right Ginza deals with the normal baptismal liturgy and can be easily read without mirrors.

Now here's an interesting typological reference for the "harlot of Babylon" - the Mandaean Book of John the Baptist describes a Jewess who marries the Mandaean people and is translated mystically from the Jordan to the Euohrates, where she is seated naked upon an elevated throne, evocative of the goddess Ishtar. I don't think the harlot of Babylon refers to this minor faith in general, but rather I feel like the Mandaeans in their polemical anti Christian zeal managed to realize in their Scripture that figure.

I reject entirely the view that the harlot of Babylon refers to the Roman Catholic Church. I think it refers rather to those sinful things within fallen society, Babylon, that we do not wish to abandon for the sake of God. Yet we must find the strength to do it, for the harlot of Babylon is inevitably vanquished by time.
 
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A New World

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For my part I see Babylon and it's earthly delights as a typological reference to the worldliness and the delights of the flesh, the carnal pursuits that one could pursue in Babylon, later Rome, later still Constantinople, Venice, lost cities on the Silk Road such as Merv, and finally, in our contemporary society. Babylon today is Los Angeles or New York or San Francisco.

I guess I'm more of a 'black and white' thinker. Not much gray here. With that in mind, I see the kingdom of Babylon as an instrument of God used to judge His people Israel. He ultimately judged Babylon for her evil removing her kingdom forever.

John used the name mystery Babylon mother of harlots as a description of apostate Israel as she faced imminent judgment. Since her judgment is complete I believe the typological comparison is no longer relevant.

I reject entirely the view that the harlot of Babylon refers to the Roman Catholic Church. I think it refers rather to those sinful things within fallen society, Babylon, that we do not wish to abandon for the sake of God. Yet we must find the strength to do it, for the harlot of Babylon is inevitably vanquished by time.

I reject any view that refers to any modern entity as mystery Babylon. I believe Old Covenant apostate Israel's standing as the kingdom of God on earth was removed and made evident by Rome's sacking of Jerusalem in the years leading up to and including AD 70.

I think Scripture is mainly focused on covenants and the relationship between God and man. The end of the age should be thought of as 'covenant eschatology' not an end of the planet and life as we know it. Since the focus was covenantal, the fact that the New Covenant was fully established at the passing away of the Old, a continuing typological comparison is moot.
 
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Wgw

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Even some of the greatest minds of the Antiochene school of literal interpretation like St. John Chrysostom fell back on allegorical and typological interpretation.

As an Oriental Orthodox, I rely on an ancient interpretation of the Bible that is largely allegorical, typological and mystical. If you wish, I can look this subject up in the Orthodox Study Bible and pull up a complete set of interpretations of it. However regarding Babylon this is one area where to my knowledge we have no single interpretation; the Apocalypse is generally interpreted as a mystical description of the Divine Liturgy, a metaphorical New Testament version of the Book of Leviticus, the sacerdotal manual of ancient Judaism. But there are a multitude of Patristic commentaries that evaluated the prophetic angle. Many Holy Fathers regarded the work as spurious, but my patron St. Athanasius thought it fit for inclusion and I think it a superb climax of the Johannine literature, if read as a description both of the New Jerusalem in the World to Come and as a mystical description of the Divine Liturgy itself.
 
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<<This is why I believe the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 by Rome brought an end to the Old Covenant age.>>

The establishment of the Church on Pentecost marked the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant.

<< If this is correct, mystery Babylon in Revelation would have referred to first century AD apostate Israel represented by Jerusalem.>>


The book of Revelation identified Babylon by identifying who was most devastated by her destruction. Chapter 18 identifies them as the merchants who became rich "since no one buys their cargo any more," (v.11) and the kings of the earth who "committed fornication and were wanton with her" (v.9)

That is not just a 1st century phenomenon; it is the continuous, ongoing, state of affairs of the earth. It is the oppression of those who worship God by those who worship the god Mammon. It is the league of governments, banks, and businesses who consider people "human resources" which are employed in the process of gathering ever greater wealth and power for the wealthy and powerful.

Good "human resources" are cheap, plentiful, and expendable.

And there is nothing new under the sun.

jim
 
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A New World

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<<This is why I believe the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 by Rome brought an end to the Old Covenant age.>>

The establishment of the Church on Pentecost marked the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant.

I believe the writer of Hebrews refutes that idea:
"In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Heb. 8:13)

Hebrews was written well after the establishment of the church on the day of Pentecost. I believe it was written in about AD 60. It says the Old Covenant, at that time, was becoming obsolete and growing old and was ready to vanish away.

The destruction of the temple is the only imminent event that remotely matches the vanishing of the Old Covenant system.

<< If this is correct, mystery Babylon in Revelation would have referred to first century AD apostate Israel represented by Jerusalem.>>
The book of Revelation identified Babylon by identifying who was most devastated by her destruction. Chapter 18 identifies them as the merchants who became rich "since no one buys their cargo any more," (v.11) and the kings of the earth who "committed fornication and were wanton with her" (v.9)

That is not just a 1st century phenomenon; it is the continuous, ongoing, state of affairs of the earth. It is the oppression of those who worship God by those who worship the god Mammon. It is the league of governments, banks, and businesses who consider people "human resources" which are employed in the process of gathering ever greater wealth and power for the wealthy and powerful.

I provide what I believe to be incontrovertible evidence in post #1 in this thread. If you don't agree, please interact with all the evidence in that post.

Here is a sample:
Judgment on Israel in that generation:
Matthew 23:35 "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Judgment on mystery Babylon which John said was near: Revelation 18:24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth."

According to the NT writers, first century Old Covenant Israel was mystery Babylon.


 
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I believe the writer of Hebrews refutes that idea:
"In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Heb. 8:13)


OK. I can see what you mean by that.

According to Scripture, who would be found guilty of killing the prophets, saints, and all who were slain on the earth?

Jesus pronounced judgment on the first century AD leaders of Israel:

"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat." (Mt. 23:1-2)

"Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt..."Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." (Mt. 23:31-32,34-36)


That list of the slain does not include "all the slain of the earth." The first century leaders of Israel could hardly be held responsible for "all the slain of the earth".

Multiple hundreds of millions of people have been killed in wars. Far more than any number for which the Pharisees and scribes were responsible.

What is the reason for every war?

The reason for all wars (not the excuses) is economics and politics; the acquisition of wealth and power. The people interested in wealth and power are merchants and kings not scribes and Pharisees.
 
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A New World

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According to Scripture, who would be found guilty of killing the prophets, saints, and all who were slain on the earth?

Jesus pronounced judgment on the first century AD leaders of Israel:

"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat." (Mt. 23:1-2)

"Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' guilt..."Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." (Mt. 23:31-32,34-36)


That list of the slain does not include "all the slain of the earth." The first century leaders of Israel could hardly be held responsible for "all the slain of the earth".

It appears your disagreement is with Jesus. According to His Words in Mt. 23:31-36, the first century leaders of Israel would fill up the measure of their father's guilt. They would also be guilty and held responsible for killing, crucifying, and persecuting the prophets, wise men and scribes that Jesus would send to them. We now know that they in fact crucified Jesus, killed His apostles, and persecuted His saints.

He clearly said, "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth." Then, He gave the time frame: "Assuredly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."

John said of mystery Babylon:
"And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird!... "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!"... "And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth." (Rev. 18:2,20,24)

Whoever one says mystery Babylon is, they must provide evidence that God pronounced judgment on that entity. I find no better candidate than first century Old Covenant Israel.

Multiple hundreds of millions of people have been killed in wars. Far more than any number for which the Pharisees and scribes were responsible.

The focus of the judgment on Old Covenant Israel (mystery Babylon) was her sins committed under the Old Covenant. God promised this judgment through Moses and subsequent prophets. Her covenant age ended when God destroyed her and raised up a New Covenant people beginning with a remnant taken from her before the end.
 
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Wgw

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<<This is why I believe the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 by Rome brought an end to the Old Covenant age.>>

The establishment of the Church on Pentecost marked the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant.

<< If this is correct, mystery Babylon in Revelation would have referred to first century AD apostate Israel represented by Jerusalem.>>


The book of Revelation identified Babylon by identifying who was most devastated by her destruction. Chapter 18 identifies them as the merchants who became rich "since no one buys their cargo any more," (v.11) and the kings of the earth who "committed fornication and were wanton with her" (v.9)

That is not just a 1st century phenomenon; it is the continuous, ongoing, state of affairs of the earth. It is the oppression of those who worship God by those who worship the god Mammon. It is the league of governments, banks, and businesses who consider people "human resources" which are employed in the process of gathering ever greater wealth and power for the wealthy and powerful.

Good "human resources" are cheap, plentiful, and expendable.

And there is nothing new under the sun.

jim

Father, is it not the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church that the Church always existed? Thats what my Orthodox Study Bible says and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has stressed this point. It is our doctrine as well. Since the Church is the Body of Christ.

Rather Pentecost marked the descent of the Holy Spirit which began the active expansion of the Church after the Ascension, the Apostolic Age, and a process whereby the Orthodox Church would become separate from Second Temple Judaism, which had now lost its legitimacy and would soon end due to Roman violence. Your peer Fr. Andrew Stephen Dammick in Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy uses this point to stress that Rabinnical Judaism and Karaite Judaism are younger brothers of Christianity, the relying on the Midrashim and later the Talmud to write down and compile the oral traditions of the Pharisees which our Lord objected to, with those Jews opposed to this eventually forming the sola scriptura Karaite movement, which is in some respects a spiritual successor to Sadduceanism, but is nit directly connected, and shares the Rabinnical belief in the Resurrection of the Dead.
 
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<<It appears your disagreement is with Jesus.>>

Or you are. You said that the 1st century Jewish leaders would be guilty of all the slain of the earth.

Jesus didn't say that.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slain on earth."


Since the total of all the slain of the earth has not yet been accomplished, the leaders od ancient Israel could hardly be responsible for them.

<< He clearly said, "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on shed on the earth." Then, He gave the time frame: "Assuredly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.">>

You are conflating the words of Revelation 18:24 (an highly symbolic apocalyptic vision) and the words of Jesus at Mat 23:36 (a clear pronouncement which came to pass in 70 AD)

"Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation." They are not the same.

<< Whoever one says mystery Babylon is, they must provide evidence that God pronounced judgment on that entity. >>

OK Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and
fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation and to destroy its sinners

from it.

Eze 30:3 For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near; it will be
a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations.


Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the nations.
As you have done, it shall be done to you, your deeds shall return
on your own head.


God has pronounced judgment on all nations.

<< I find no better candidate than first century Old Covenant Israel.>>

Great. However, what you do or do not find is not "the Gospel." It is your understanding.

<<Her covenant age ended when God destroyed her and raised up a New Covenant people beginning with a remnant taken from her before the end.>>

God destroyed the NATION called Israel, not the PEOPLE called Israel.

God's covenant with Israel still stands, if Paul can be believed.

Rom 11:25-29

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand
this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel,
until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will
be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he
will banish ungodliness from Jacob";"and this will be my covenant
with them when I take away their sins."


As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake;
but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their
forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.


jim
 
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A New World

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<<It appears your disagreement is with Jesus.>>

Or you are. You said that the 1st century Jewish leaders would be guilty of all the slain of the earth.

Jesus didn't say that.

Let's try again. Please follow the logic that connects Jesus' words that applied to first century Jerusalem, and John's description of mystery, Babylon.

First century Jerusalem would be judged for killing the prophets:

"Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city" (Mt. 23:34)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Mt. 23:37)

"Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for
it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem (Luke 13:33)

Mystery, Babylon judged for killing the prophets:


"Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!" (Revelation 18:20)

"And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth." (Revelation 18:24)

Jesus said prophets were sent to Jerusalem. He called her: "The one who kills the prophets." He said: "It cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem."

In mystery, Babylon was found the blood of the prophets. The prophets rejoiced over mystery, Babylon's destruction because God had avenged them on her.

Again, If God sent prophets to Jerusalem, and she killed the prophets, and a prophet could not perish outside Jerusalem, and if the blood of the prophets was found in mystery Babylon, and the prophets rejoiced over her destruction, then mystery, Babylon was first century Jerusalem.





 
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<< Whoever one says mystery Babylon is, they must provide evidence that God pronounced judgment on that entity. >>

OK Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and
fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation and to destroy its sinners

from it.

Eze 30:3 For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near; it will be
a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations.


Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the nations.
As you have done, it shall be done to you, your deeds shall return
on your own head.

God has pronounced judgment on all nations.

These passages show God's past judgment.

Isaiah 13 prophesied the fall of the kingdom of Babylon. Ezekiel 30 was the judgment of Egypt by Babylon. Obadiah 1 was about the judgment of Edom.

I'm not sure what your point has to do with Revelation and God's imminent judgment on Old Covenant Israel, the harlot, mystery Babylon which John said was imminent.

<< I find no better candidate than first century Old Covenant Israel.>>

Great. However, what you do or do not find is not "the Gospel." It is your understanding.

Scripture is the final authority and I've proven with scriptural evidence that the identity of mystery, Babylon is first century Jerusalem.

<<Her covenant age ended when God destroyed her and raised up a New Covenant people beginning with a remnant taken from her before the end.>>

God destroyed the NATION called Israel, not the PEOPLE called Israel.

God destroyed Jerusalem, mystery Babylon, that represented the Old Covenant system. He took the kingdom from her and gave it to another. Before her destruction he saved a remnant from all twelve tribes keeping His promise that He wouldn't destroy her completely. He raised up New Covenant Israel, the bride, the church.

God's covenant with Israel still stands, if Paul can be believed.

Rom 11:25-29

Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand
this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel,
until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will
be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he
will banish ungodliness from Jacob";"and this will be my covenant
with them when I take away their sins."


As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake;
but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their
forefathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.


jim

As Hebrews 8:13 shows, the Old Covenant age was about to vanish away in their day. How did Paul define "all Israel" that would be saved in the last day? He quoted Isaiah: "Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." (Rom. 9:27)

The covenant with Israel that stands today is the New Covenant under Messiah.
 
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These passages show God's past judgment.

Isaiah 13 prophesied the fall of the kingdom of Babylon. Ezekiel 30 was the judgment of Egypt by Babylon. Obadiah 1 was about the judgment of Edom.

I'm not sure what your point has to do with Revelation and God's imminent judgment on Old Covenant Israel, the harlot, mystery Babylon which John said was imminent.



Scripture is the final authority and I've proven with scriptural evidence that the identity of mystery, Babylon is first century Jerusalem.



God destroyed Jerusalem, mystery Babylon, that represented the Old Covenant system. He took the kingdom from her and gave it to another. Before her destruction he saved a remnant from all twelve tribes keeping His promise that He wouldn't destroy her completely. He raised up His bride, New Covenant Israel, the bride, the church.



As Hebrews 8:13 shows, the Old Covenant age was about to vanish away in their day. How did Paul define "all Israel" that would be saved in the last day? He quoted Isaiah: "Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." (Rom. 9:27)

The covenant with Israel that stands today is the New Covenant under Messiah.
These passages show God's past judgment.

Isaiah 13 prophesied the fall of the kingdom of Babylon. Ezekiel 30 was the judgment of Egypt by Babylon. Obadiah 1 was about the judgment of Edom.

I'm not sure what your point has to do with Revelation and God's imminent judgment on Old Covenant Israel, the harlot, mystery Babylon which John said was imminent.



Scripture is the final authority and I've proven with scriptural evidence that the identity of mystery, Babylon is first century Jerusalem.



God destroyed Jerusalem, mystery Babylon, that represented the Old Covenant system. He took the kingdom from her and gave it to another. Before her destruction he saved a remnant from all twelve tribes keeping His promise that He wouldn't destroy her completely. He raised up His bride, New Covenant Israel, the bride, the church.



As Hebrews 8:13 shows, the Old Covenant age was about to vanish away in their day. How did Paul define "all Israel" that would be saved in the last day? He quoted Isaiah: "Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." (Rom. 9:27)

The covenant with Israel that stands today is the New Covenant under Messiah.
<<Isaiah 13 prophesied the fall of the kingdom of Babylon.>>

So the words "the earth " really mean Babylon.

And you just change the words to fit your theology.

OK. Got it.
 
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Wgw

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Clark County, 9th Circuit Court........?:grinning:

Oh!

OCA Archdiocese of the West

Ok, they hace a parish near me, with a rather nice priest. I really liked Metropolitan Jonah but his successor Metropolitan Tikhon seems ro be doing a good job also. The incident with Fr. Arrida last fall freaked me out however. Since the OCA and the OO are on fairly good terms especially through SVS i pay close attention to what is going on in your jurisdiction.

Also the OCA I really respect for its high convert intake.
 
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A New World

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<<Isaiah 13 prophesied the fall of the kingdom of Babylon.>>

So the words "the earth " really mean Babylon.

And you just change the words to fit your theology.

OK. Got it.

Out of all the evidence presented regarding mystery Babylon, that's the extent of your reply?

I didn't change anything. The Hebrew word 'erets' translated 'earth' often should be, and is, translated 'land.' The context of Isaiah 13 is God's judgment of Babylon, her removal as a kingdom, and the transfer of power to the Medes.

"The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw... Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it... "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it." (Is. 13:1,9,17)

The earth was not the object of this prophecy, it was the land of Babylon.
 
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Ok, they hace a parish near me, with a rather nice priest. I really liked Metropolitan Jonah but his successor Metropolitan Tikhon seems ro be doing a good job also. The incident with Fr. Arrida last fall freaked me out however. Since the OCA and the OO are on fairly good terms especially through SVS i pay close attention to what is going on in your jurisdiction.

Also the OCA I really respect for its high convert intake.

We have 14 catechumens this year.
 
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