Honest question about "Origin of Species"

Subduction Zone · May 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
What was it?

"And frankly, I am not sure that a chimp could not beat you in a poetry contest."

A simple comment. You are the one that read the insult into it.

Give an example.

The fact that you are obsessing on a simple observation.

Complex is the ability to produce designed and functional creations and we see the evidence of this complexity in humanity which isn't seen in chimps.

Hardly. That is a worthless definition. Since honey bees can make complex hives are you saying that a bee is more complex than a dog? Definitions need to cover more than just one limited case. And by that definition the article that is being debated is clearly wrong. We do know how new traits come about so by your definition we do know how "life becomes more complex".

Subduction Zone · May 29, 2015

Justatruthseeker said:
You take away all my fun

But of course, because nothing that works with precision is a random process. Whether you trip over a rock tomorrow might be random, but nothing about you or that rock is made in any random way.

Hence Romans 1:20 pretty well sums it up. As we already see as science advances - what was fact suddenly becomes myth. That is All the excuses get thinner and thinner and one by one dissolve away. IMO it is science itself that will one day leave them with no more excuses. And then it'll be too tale.

Oh please. You know it is the other way around. Why do you even make such comments?

justlookinla · May 29, 2015

Subduction Zone said:
A simple comment. You are the one that read the insult into it.

You suggested that a chimp was more intelligent than I.....

"And frankly, I am not sure that a chimp could not beat you in a poetry contest."

The fact that you are obsessing on a simple observation.

You're obsessing on distancing yourself from the insult and of course not giving an example of your charge against me.

Hardly. That is a worthless definition. Since honey bees can make complex hives are you saying that a bee is more complex than a dog? Definitions need to cover more than just one limited case. And by that definition the article that is being debated is clearly wrong. We do know how new traits come about so by your definition we do know how "life becomes more complex".

This isn't one limited case, this is taking the designed and functional creations produced by humanity and comparing them to the designed and functional creations of chimps.

Is there any comparison at all?

Justatruthseeker · May 29, 2015

Subduction Zone said:
If that was true then you should be able to support that statement. Define complex, don't simply give examples of different traits. A human may be able to out think a chimp, but a chimp is easily stronger. Perhaps two to one or more pound for pound. Again, you are simply citing different traits, not different complexities.

Complex is the entire universe and life itself.

Complex is what makes those same protons, neutrons and electrons in a rock be the exact same protons, neutrons and electrons in that apple you eat. Every part a piece of the whole, all acting in such an ordered fashion we can describe it mathematically. But the origin of living matter and the universe itself defy even the mathematics. And so the math fails at the point where both were created. One (the universe/matter) a very part of that Being itself, one from the substance thereof (dust).

And yet that complexity is what these claimed simple forms of life are composed of. Even the simplest life is tied into one complex entirety. Without these claimed simple forms of life, you couldn't even digest that apple. So you are more complex than the very thing you rely on for life itself? That so simple (as you claim) bacteria in your gut is doing what without it the complex you (as you claim) would be dust.

Subduction Zone · May 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
You suggested that a chimp was more intelligent than I.....

"And frankly, I am not sure that a chimp could not beat you in a poetry contest."

No, I didn't. I can assure you that the ability to write poetry is not connected to intelligence.

You're obsessing on distancing yourself from the insult and of course not giving an example of your charge against me.

What insult? You made the post an insult not me and you are still obsessing about it. Your continued obsession shows that you are mad.

This isn't one limited case, this is taking the designed and functional creations produced by humanity and comparing them to the designed and functional creations of chimps.

Is there any comparison at all?

Wrong, it is a foolish and useless definition that you cobbled together. It makes the logical fallacy of begging the question. You need to do a lot better than that.[/quote]

Subduction Zone · May 29, 2015

Justatruthseeker said:
Complex is the entire universe and life itself.

Complex is what makes those same protons, neutrons and electrons in a rock be the exact same protons, neutrons and electrons in that apple you eat. Every part a piece of the whole, all acting in such an ordered fashion we can describe it mathematically. But the origin of living matter and the universe itself defy even the mathematics. And so the math fails at the point where both were created. One (the universe/matter) a very part of that Being itself, one from the substance thereof (dust).

And yet that complexity is what these claimed simple forms of life are composed of. Even the simplest life is tied into one complex entirety. Without these claimed simple forms of life, you couldn't even digest that apple. So you are more complex than the very thing you rely on for life itself? That so simple (as you claim) bacteria in your gut is doing what without it the complex you (as you claim) would be dust.

And more worthless word salad. Again, this is supposed to be a scientific argument. If you want to use a term in this argument you must be ready to give an unbiased and functional definition of the term in question.

justlookinla · May 29, 2015

Subduction Zone said:
No, I didn't. I can assure you that the ability to write poetry is not connected to intelligence.

The ability to create poetry is linked to intelligence. We both know that chimps do not have the intelligence to create poetry, thus your suggestion that a chimp is more intelligent than I.

AV1611VET · May 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
Mad?

You rang?

Subduction Zone · May 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
The ability to create poetry is linked to intelligence. We both know that chimps do not have the intelligence to create poetry, thus your suggestion that a chimp is more intelligent than I.

You might be surprised. And you were the one that made this personal not me:

"Yes, I could design an automobile and write a poem (other would have to decided if it's epic). You'll certainly not find a chimp which has the slightest ability to do that."

Chimps can and have learned American Sign Language. I don't know if anyone has done any real research on chimp poetry.

justlookinla · May 29, 2015

Subduction Zone said:
You might be surprised. And you were the one that made this personal not me:

"Yes, I could design an automobile and write a poem (other would have to decided if it's epic). You'll certainly not find a chimp which has the slightest ability to do that."

Chimps can and have learned American Sign Language. I don't know if anyone has done any real research on chimp poetry.

You made this personal when you suggested that my intelligence as seen in the ability to produce poetry was less than a chimp.

Do you know the rules of the forum concerning personal insults?

Subduction Zone · May 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
You made this personal when you suggested that my intelligence as seen in the ability to produce poetry was less than a chimp.

Do you know the rules of the forum concerning personal insults?

No, you made it personal with an empty boast. I made no personal insult. You interpreted it as such.

Did you not see that your empty boast had the word "I" in it? You made it personal I only responded in kind. You have since obsessed about it.

justlookinla · May 29, 2015

Subduction Zone said:
No, you made it personal with an empty boast. I made not personal insult. You interpreted it as such.

There's no other interpretation.....

"And frankly, I am not sure that a chimp could not beat you in a poetry contest."

Did you not see that your empty boast had the word "I" in it? You made it personal I only responded in kind. You have since obsessed about it.

You seem to wish to not take responsibility for your personal insult.

I ask again, do you know the forum rules concerning personal insults?

Subduction Zone · May 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
There's no other interpretation.....

"And frankly, I am not sure that a chimp could not beat you in a poetry contest."

You seem to wish to not take responsibility for your personal insult.

I ask again, do you know the forum rules concerning personal insults?

Again, you are only interpreting it as such. You should quit obsessing. But I will offer you a deal. If you apologize for your empty boast I will apologize for what you perceive as an insult.

justlookinla · May 29, 2015

Subduction Zone said:
Again, you are only interpreting it as such. You should quit obsessing. But I will offer you a deal. If you apologize for your empty boast I will apologize for what you perceive as an insult.

My claim isn't empty. Please point out where it is.

Honestly, you insults do not bother me. But they do bother the admins at times.

Subduction Zone · May 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
My claim isn't empty. Please point out where it is.

Honestly, you insults do not bother me. But they do bother the admins at times.

Here is where your boast was wrong and empty:

" You'll certainly not find a chimp which has the slightest ability to do that."

And a person that is not mad does not obsess the way that you have been.

justlookinla · May 29, 2015

Subduction Zone said:
Here is where your boast was wrong and empty:

" You'll certainly not find a chimp which has the slightest ability to do that."

And a person that not mad does not obsess the way that you have been.

Of course you're not going to find a chip with the slightest ability to do that. Chimps are relatively stupid, compared to humans.

Subduction Zone · May 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
Of course you're not going to find a chip with the slightest ability to do that. Chimps are relatively stupid, compared to humans.

Seriously they are not as stupid as you make them out to be. When ASL was not sufficient Washoe invented new words:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_(chimpanzee)

justlookinla · May 29, 2015

Subduction Zone said:
Seriously they are not as stupid as you make them out to be. When ASL was not sufficient Washoe invented new words:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washoe_(chimpanzee)

You disagree with the statement that "chimps are relatively stupid, compared to humans"?

Subduction Zone · May 29, 2015

justlookinla said:
You disagree with the statement that "chimps are relatively stupid, compared to humans"?

Yes, they have different abilities. It is also insulting. If I used such a term applied towards creationists I would be in serious trouble here. Yet I would be using the same criteria that you are using to call chimps "stupid". For example when it comes to short term memory chimps may outperform people:

http://www.livescience.com/27199-chimps-smarter-memory-humans.html

justlookinla · May 29, 2015

Subduction Zone said:
Yes, they have different abilities.

A chimp doesn't come close to having the riches of abilities which a human has.

It is also insulting.

Insulting to the chimp?

If I used such a term applied towards creationists I would be in serious trouble here.

Now you're comparing those who embrace God as creator to chimps?

Yet I would be using the same criteria that you are using to call chimps "stupid". For example when it comes to short term memory chimps may outperform people:

http://www.livescience.com/27199-chimps-smarter-memory-humans.html

When it comes to observing the products of creation of humans and the products of creation of chimps, there is no comparison.

Honest question about "Origin of Species"

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