Baptists and the Virign Mary.

some people think that the idol "Mary, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, full of grace" enlightens them so they, by the idol, believe their intellect is superior and they are educated to explain God more than less "enlightened and educated" foaks.

Some others are also teaching Catholic doctrines here and should expect to be opposed by Baptists when those doctrines are basic to the divisions between the two Christian groups.

This is more and worse of what I have seen, and why I think it is very difficult to find a Church these days. It is easy if you will buy all this stuff. I did not, even more than 35 years ago when I was largely ignorant of the deep spiritual issues of scripture. I had believed too much of what I heard in Church, but NONE of it was much like these things!!!

SaintJoeNow said:

This sounds like the Americanized Hinduism/paganism that is creeping into many Baptist churches through the teachings of groups like the Acts 29 Network, the Emerging Church. There are some shocking things being accepted in some Baptist circles. Part of it is moving toward ecumenicalism in which all faiths are united. The driving force of it is a spirituality which is independent of the word of God claiming to be from God's spirit. It finds common ground where Catholics, Batpists, and Muslims can be united. The one world religion that is going to be imposed in the future is this kind of stuff in full bloom....designed to be inclusive and non-offensive for all religions.

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yes well.. few realize that in islam they too have a queen of heaven .. the false godess .

Alithis said:

yes well.. few realize that in islam they too have a queen of heaven .. the false godess .

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I believe the Mother/Child idol is found in most religions around the world and has it's roots in ancient Babylon as the worship of Nimrod and his mother. "The Two Babylons" by, if I remember correctly, Alexander Hyslop, is an extremely scholarly documentation of the Mother/child religion and how it spread around the world, documented in ancient symbols spreading through ancient cultures and how those same symbols are used in religions today. It's been a long time since I read the book, I consider it to be one of the most important books in the world today, documenting the source and spread of most if not all of the worlds religions. I have a copy in my exclusive little library

SaintJoeNow said:

I believe the Mother/Child idol is found in most religions around the world and has it's roots in ancient Babylon as the worship of Nimrod and his mother. "The Two Babylons" by, if I remember correctly, Alexander Hyslop, is an extremely scholarly documentation of the Mother/child religion and how it spread around the world, documented in ancient symbols spreading through ancient cultures and how those same symbols are used in religions today. It's been a long time since I read the book, I consider it to be one of the most important books in the world today, documenting the source and spread of most if not all of the worlds religions. I have a copy in my exclusive little library

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Yes i understand that to be the case also ..the mother ofgod and queen of heaven i consider to blasphemic titles.

Princeton, where would you say Scripture says it is okay to pray to the saints? I agree with you Baptist have a tendency to misinterpret other faiths beliefs too carelessly. But whether most people understand it or not, there is a reason they are Protestants. Their ancestors of the faith Protested against Roman Catholic theology. I'm unaware of any Scripture giving a sound support for praying to Mary. On the otherhand, Baptist don't give enough honor to Mary probably because they are trying to be overly emphatic about the sin of praying to idols. What there is not a sin against is having a painting, a statue or relic in the church to honor those people and to remind people of their lives.

PrincetonGuy said:

Did you mean to write, “Basically, an idol is something that gets in the way of worshipping God. Judging from what I hear from many Catholics, it looks like they put more emphasis on Mary than they do on God, and that is rather worrisome.”?

Based upon what I read in their posts, I see that radicalized independent Baptists put more emphasis upon bashing Roman Catholics than they do upon worshiping and serving God. Am I to infer from these non-cognizant “Baptists” that Baptists behave more like infidels than they do like Christians? No, of course not! In every faith group we find faithful practitioners, and others who are living in the twilight zone.

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mikedsjr said:

Princeton, where would you say Scripture says it is okay to pray to the saints? I agree with you Baptist have a tendency to misinterpret other faiths beliefs too carelessly. But whether most people understand it or not, there is a reason they are Protestants. Their ancestors of the faith Protested against Roman Catholic theology. I'm unaware of any Scripture giving a sound support for praying to Mary. On the otherhand, Baptist don't give enough honor to Mary probably because they are trying to be overly emphatic about the sin of praying to idols. What there is not a sin against is having a painting, a statue or relic in the church to honor those people and to remind people of their lives.

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The New Testament is silent on the issue of praying to the saints; and to argue in a state of hysteria like some radicalized independent Baptists do that it is a sin is nothing but irrational, non-biblical bashing of our brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic Church—and that is a sin!

PrincetonGuy said:

The New Testament is silent on the issue of praying to the saints; and to argue in a state of hysteria like some radicalized independent Baptists do that it is a sin is nothing but irrational, non-biblical bashing of our brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic Church—and that is a sin!

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You are absolutely correct that bashing RC is sin. It's certainly a sin to bring a false witness about the RC Christian too. The RC church doesn't teaches ot isn't a sin to pray to saints. However, there is not a Scriptural foundation. It's born out of their interpretation of early Christian Fathers. Am I not correct?

George95 said:

I hope you guys don't mind if I come in here and ask questions?

For example, I went to a Baptist school. As soon as Mary came up into any of the questions or discussion, the tide just changed to a super tight feeling if you guys get what I mean.

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because it causes relationship tension between peoples and no one likes tension..But tension is cause by opposing spirit .
but we all know that to elevate an individual above their station id a form of idolizing them.. and that to give a person more worth then is due is to "worship' them and to do either of these things by making images of them is the same .
add "praying to them" and you step right across into full idolatry and faithlessness - because the only reason to pray or ask the departed spirits to pry for you is you don't believe god can hear you and your trying to access God another way - which is unbelief and disobedience . because the Lord jesus unambiguously said -"no man comes to the father but through me ".
the problem is that the parties who do this refuse to be honest about it .
people are not even being honest about overtly praising sports or movie stars as worship ,so its not surprising they are not being honest about this either .
and presently there is a concerted carnal intellectual drive to get people to reunite back under rome's doctrinal control .with rome trying to say its corrected the salvation by works error it once adopted that was so opposed by Luther ..And they make it sound very convincing .., but luther had .,was it 99? points not 1. .. so there are 98 other points rome must repent of before there could ever be a true unity .. the next one would be casting of mary veneration .. remembering that some one in the past ,now passed away , was blessed and making statues ,chanting hail ,praying to her and giving her titles that are blasphemy ..is a huge difference and a false doctrine .. so its no wonder people get tense because when the topic comes up.. so does the utter contradiction of scripture between the opposing doctrines .light and dark truth and lie cannot ever be in unity they can never truly have fellowship ..only a fake semblance of it .. a shiney cup full of wickedness on the inside
and people are staring to buy into this false unity ..people are beginning to believe a lie .
people re beginning to want to believe a lie .. the great falling away is now upon us .for sure .

choose this day whom you will serve but as for me and my house , we will serve the Lord - NOT rome
not rome's church whose head is the pope.

the church i am a part of has one head only and it is the LORD JESUS .. HE is the head of HIS body the church . and the church is made up of all those in whom the lord Jesus ,by his spirit , dwells . it is not an organisation put together and run by mans hands .

PrincetonGuy said:

The New Testament is silent on the issue of praying to the saints; and to argue in a state of hysteria like some radicalized independent Baptists do that it is a sin is nothing but irrational, non-biblical bashing of our brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic Church—and that is a sin!

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so your saying it is a sin to point out that idolatry is wrong .. hmmm -i guess that makes God wrong as he points it out often ? of course God is nt wrong ..we are if we do it .
i laugh that so many catholics say it ( a statue of mary) is not an idol its an icon .. if that's true ..if you really beleive that - go right now and smash it to dust and cast it down .
but they never do.. because they give it to much "worth" ..they worship it they IDolize it ..if it were not so . they would have no problem smashing that piece of clay or painted plaster..
actions speak louder then words

George95 said:

I hope you guys don't mind if I come in here and ask questions?

For example, I went to a Baptist school. As soon as Mary came up into any of the questions or discussion, the tide just changed to a super tight feeling if you guys get what I mean.

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So glad to see you enter the conversation in your usually gentlemanly manner.

It's because the Catholic Church has caused a division by elevating Mary to a position cooperative and co-equal with God. The super tight feeling was probably due to the fact that Baptists are very well aware of this division and are sensitive to the feelings and beliefs of others desiring all to know the truth according to the Bible. Baptists hold Mary to be their sister, not the Heavenly Mother of their God, not the Queen of Heaven, not full of grace but rather a sinner saved by grace like Baptists. We do not in any way pray to Mary, bow down to Mary, ask Mary to do things for us, or put her in any position other than being a servant of God. She was specially chosen by God as the vehicle by which He took on a body for Himself, and for that honor of being chosen for such a special and unique service, she is held to be blessed among women, the same as Jesus said there was not a man born of woman greater than John the Baptist. Some people were specially chosen by God for extremely unique and special purpose, and they are remembered as blessed by God, highly favored by God for those reasons. They are still our siblings.

Catholics who imply that Baptists are "Mary-phobic" like the OP did are flaming, blowing things out of proportion in defense of their idolized version of Mary. Baptists are well aware of the many apparitions which are held by Catholics to be Mary and Baptists believe these apparitions are deceptions of demons as Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Demons can appear in many forms according to whatever people want to believe as they seek to distract people from seeing how easy it is for them to be saved from Hell if they will only A...admit they are sinners who deserve to die and burn in Hell....B.....believe God loves them so much that He died in their place and paid for their sins as the Son of God, Jesus, sent by God the Father and that He rose from the grave bodily offering complete and forever forgiveness to them and ...C....call on God in the name of Jesus to save them from Hell and receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Any who will wholeheartedly believe and ask God in Jesus name to save them will be saved, and they don't need any Queen of Heaven or Mother of God to help them. Mary is my sister and I will talk to her as my sister in heaven one day. I'm sure there will be a long waiting list of people waiting to talk with her, but we have all of eternity to do it. Baptists have no animosity or phobia of Mary, they love her as their sister.

Alithis said:

but we all know that to elevate an individual above their station id a form ofidolizingthem.. and that to give a person more worth then is due is to"worship' themand to do either of these things by making images of them is the same.

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I do not know that, and I do not know any Baptists that know that—because it is not true.

mikedsjr said:

You are absolutely correct that bashing RC is sin. It's certainly a sin to bring a false witness about the RC Christian too. The RC church doesn't teaches ot isn't a sin to pray to saints. However, there is not a Scriptural foundation. It's born out of their interpretation of early Christian Fathers. Am I not correct?

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Since I am not, and never have been, a Roman Catholic, I shall give you a link to a good Roman Catholic answer:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

Alithis said:

... they would have no problem smashing that piece of clay or painted plaster..
actions speak louder then words

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It should be noted we are talking about a statue owned by the person in question. The accusation has been made that Baptists do as ISIS has been doing - going around to people's gathering places, and smashing their statues. It is not that Baptists are doing this. If, as was shown before, I was to buy a house that had such a thing, I would smash it. I would not come to your house, and smash something belonging to you. I trust you can see the difference.

Mary, being idolized by someone making a statue, and being prayed to (against the 2nd commandment - Exodus 20:4-6) is no different than any other subject of idolatry. The mother of Jesus is a person who knew this was not right, and when people came to her, she sent them to Jesus and stated, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." She initially came to her Son, and he rejected the whole idea of that. Maybe, He saw all this coming?!?!?!?

Mary tells us to go to Jesus, and obey Him, but that is not what a significant portion of this world's population is satisfied to do.

George95 said:

... As soon as Mary came up into any of the questions or discussion, the tide just changed to a super tight feeling...

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It would be interesting to know the context of the case you mentioned. I doubt a scripture or lesson was being taught, and the passage mentioned Mary, the mother of Jesus. Was it instead, that they were talking or teaching about something else, and you just brought that up?

Avid said:

It should be noted we are talking about a statue owned by the person in question. The accusation has been made that Baptists do as ISIS has been doing - going around to people's gathering places, and smashing their statues. It is not that Baptists are doing this. If, as was shown before, I was to buy a house that had such a thing, I would smash it. I would not come to your house, and smash something belonging to you. I trust you can see the difference.

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The ONLY difference would be the ownership of the property—otherwise it would be the VERY SAME hateful, misguided violence committed by radicalized Sunni Muslims.

Avid said:

Mary, being idolize by someone making a statue, and being prayed to (against the 2nd commandment - Exodus 20:4-6) is no different than any other subject of idolatry.

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This is nothing but shamefully disgusting and malicious anti-Catholic propaganda that is making Baptists appear to other Christians and to non-Christians to be loathsome, hateful beasts. My Baptist denominations does not preach or teach such lies; the Southern Baptist Convention does not preach or teach such lies, and no other Baptist denomination of which I am aware teaches such lies—but these lies are doing immeasurable harm to the reputation of Baptists around the world who love Jesus and who obey Him.

Avid said:

Mary tells us to go to Jesus, and obey Him, but that is not what a significant portion of this world's population is satisfied to do.

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That “significant portion of this world’s population” includes radicalized independent Baptists who make a mockery of Jesus by doing the very thing that He hated most—hating rather than loving their neighbors.

Luke 10:25. And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26. He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27. And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. (KJV)

Moreover, by hatefully and maliciously abusing our Christian brothers and sisters in the Roman Catholic Church, such people are hatefully and maliciously abusing the Christ who died for our sins to save us from them.

Matthew 25:31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43. I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45. Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV)

PrincetonGuy said:

I do not know that, and I do not know any Baptists that know that—because it is not true.

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umm do you read your bible ?Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under ...etc

Avid said:

It should be noted we are talking about a statue owned by the person in question. The accusation has been made that Baptists do as ISIS has been doing - going around to people's gathering places, and smashing their statues. It is not that Baptists are doing this. If, as was shown before, I was to buy a house that had such a thing, I would smash it. I would not come to your house, and smash something belonging to you. I trust you can see the difference.

Mary, being idolized by someone making a statue, and being prayed to (against the 2nd commandment - Exodus 20:4-6) is no different than any other subject of idolatry. The mother of Jesus is a person who knew this was not right, and when people came to her, she sent them to Jesus and stated, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." She initially came to her Son, and he rejected the whole idea of that. Maybe, He saw all this coming?!?!?!?

Mary tells us to go to Jesus, and obey Him, but that is not what a significant portion of this world's population is satisfied to do.


It would be interesting to know the context of the case you mentioned. I doubt a scripture or lesson was being taught, and the passage mentioned Mary, the mother of Jesus. Was it instead, that they were talking or teaching about something else, and you just brought that up?

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qwll no i was saying we should go to others houses and do so .. i was just pointing out the pretense/falsehood of those that say .".no my statue (or image or whatever) is not an idol " ..but then refuse to remove and cast it down . they first deny, then they refuse to repent . according to the scripture we are not instructed to have fellowship not unity with such .and this present drive for just such unity is in itself a falshood trying to coax a compromise in the name of unity .. but it is a false unity ,one that demands acceptance of "their ways" .. but does not require of them repentance and submittance to GOD

Alithis said:

qwll no i was saying we should go to others houses and do so ..

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SORRY. I misunderstood. I had made my point in an earlier post, and was applying it to things said since...

I agree about the UNITY issue. We are not to have any fellowship, no, not to eat, with anyone who calls himself a Christian, and does these things.