Let's See if We Can Discuss Abuse

mkgal1 · May 28, 2015

I think it's a very important issue that can possibly affect *everyone* (it crosses education; financial; racial; and gender lines)....so we should be informed.

The main barrier to this discussion that seems to get in the way is the competition or gender war....so I'd like to avoid all that in this thread. What I'd actually like to lean towards is how equality and the tearing down of common stereotypes can aid in the fight against abuse.

The National Domestic Violence Hotline has done---what I consider---a very good job of describing abuse and the things that are factored in. One thing that's pointed out on their site is how stereotypes feed into the problem of men not getting the help they need (and that's one of the reasons why I have an aversion to stereotypes----how it steals away from what people need).

National Domestic Violence Hotline said:
Although they make up a smaller percentage of callers to the Hotline, there are likely many more men who do not report or seek help for their abuse, for a variety of reasons:

Men are socialized not to express their feelings or see themselves as victims.
Our culture still clings to narrow definitions of gender (although there are signs that this is slowly shifting). Young boys are taught not to express their emotions, to “suck it up” and “be a man.” Tony Porter calls this the “man box” in his well-known TED talk. This can be extremely detrimental to boys as they age, especially if they find themselves in an abusive relationship. Men may feel discouraged to talk about what’s going on in their personal lives, or they feel like no one will believe them. They may not even realize that they are being abused, or they might assume they should just deal with the abuse on their own.

Pervading beliefs or stereotypes about men being abusers, women being victims.
The majority of domestic violence stories covered by the media are about male perpetrators and female victims who are typically in heterosexual relationships. While we certainly don’t want to minimize this violence, focusing on only one type of situation renders invisible the many scenarios that do not fit this definition, including abusive relationships among homosexual, bisexual, and trans* men. This might make many victims feel like they don’t have the space or the support to speak out about their own experiences and seek help.

The abuse of men is often treated as less serious, or a “joke.”
We’ve seen this in action recently with the elevator footage of Solange Knowles attacking Jay-Z. When a man is abused, many people don’t take it as seriously (in part due to the previous two reasons we’ve mentioned). The truth is, abuse is not a joke, in any situation, between any two people. All victims deserve support and resources to help them feel safe.

Many believe there are no resources or support available for male victims.
It can seem like the majority of shelters and services for domestic violence victims are women-focused. However, services for male victims do exist. Most federal funding sources require that domestic violence services be provided to all victims of abuse. Our advocates can provide information, assist with safety planning, and/or find local resources, if available. They can also help brainstorm alternative options if local programs are not meeting the requirements for male victims, including who a caller may be able to contact if they believe they have experienced discrimination.~http://www.thehotline.org/2014/07/men-can-be-victims-of-abuse-too/

Tony Porter's TED Talk transcript said:
I grew up in New York City,between Harlem and the Bronx.Growing up as a boy, we were taughtthat men had to be tough, had to be strong,had to be courageous, dominating --no pain, no emotions,with the exception of anger --and definitely no fear;that men are in charge,which means women are not;that men lead,and you should just follow and do what we say;that men are superior; women are inferior;that men are strong; women are weak;that women are of less value,property of men,and objects,particularly sexual objects.I've later come to know that to bethe collective socialization of men,better knownas the "man box."See this man box has in itall the ingredientsof how we define what it means to be a man.Now I also want to say, without a doubt,there are some wonderful, wonderful,absolutely wonderful thingsabout being a man.But at the same time,there's some stuffthat's just straight up twisted,and we really need to begin to challenge, look at it and really get in the process of deconstructing, redefining,what we come to know as manhood.

So quickly, I'd like to just say, this is the love of my life, my daughter Jay. The world I envision for her --how do I want men to be acting and behaving? I need you on board. I need you with me. I need you working with me and me working with you on how we raise our sons and teach them to be men -- that it's okay to not be dominating, that it's okay to have feelings and emotions, that it's okay to promote equality, that it's okay to have women who are just friends and that's it, that it's okay to be whole, that my liberation as a man is tied to your liberation as a woman. (Applause)

I remember asking a nine-year-old boy, I asked a nine-year-old boy, "What would life be like for you, if you didn't have to adhere to this man box?" He said to me, "I would be free."
~

See? Equality isn't something to fight against (those ebil feminists).....it's beneficial for ALL. Even this nine-year-old boy grasped that concept.

mkgal1 · May 28, 2015

I'll add one more article and hope to hear some responses.

One thing I see as dangerous is how we try to put a specific "face" to abuse---usually it's blatantly diabolical (much the reason why B. Cosby & Josh Duggar are being defended in the media) and most people have a difficult time believing a pastor.....a sweet and respectful young lady.....or a handsome young man that's top in his class would display abusive behavior. Only "monsters" are abusive....right (is the myth)?

Here's [another] article that speaks to that (and although it's about a man---it supports what I'm trying to express: that it's commonly perceived that only monsters do this---male and female monsters). That's one of my issues with stereotypes.....the clear image that's portrayed (and the ONLY story that's perceived as a possibility--disqualifying anything else that doesn't fit the stereotypical image):

http://www.ourwatch.org.au/News-media-(1)/News-Media/The-danger-of-the-monster-myth-by-Tom-Meagher

WolfGate · May 29, 2015

Thanks for posting this. For just a second I'm going to jump back to a previous thread hopefully to clarify what I could not convey well before.

What I find interesting, mkgal, is that you largely questioned and essentially dismissed the validity of an article that discussed, and tried to refute, a stereotype of abuse by women - but here you're putting forth an article that centered on a male stereotype and asking us to consider much of the content. Don't get me wrong, I think both the articles are valid and worthy and I am glad you posted this one. What I struggled to convey in the first thread may be clearer now that you have this post. I think both of them had a common purpose - to try and get people to look past the stereotype and understand that the stereotype should not be used as an excuse for bad behavior (the first article) or to keep us naïve to real abuse risks (this article). Hope that makes my thoughts clearer.

Beyond that and to the point of this thread, yes, most people have a difficult time believing someone who seems so nice - often someone who seems so much like them - could be capable of abuse. We lived that in our church with a pastor who was emotionally and verbally abusive to his wife. The victim often feels trapped because they understand it will be hard for anyone they tell to initially believe the abuser could actually do that. Once his abuse came to light and the church had to deal with the aftermath, it was amazing how many people, granted mostly women, had stories of their own that made it clear the monsters often look like us.

Dave-W · May 29, 2015

I would like to say that I disagree with much of what Tony Porter had to say. TO me, to NOT raise boys to be " ... tough .. strong .. courageous .. [show] no pain, no emotions .. no fear.." is part of the "feminization" of western society which is problematic. These are survival skills that are needed. In fact, I see it as advantageous to raise our girls the same way.

BTW - if ANY emotion needs to NOT be publically expressed to me it is anger. Blowing up at situations and people is NOT a survival skill.

I found this statement telling: "They may not even realize that they are being abused..." If someone is unaware of being abused - are they really being abused?
I was raised in an enviroment that involved frequent spankings with a belt to near-unconsiousness. My wife says my my back has scars from it. I did not consider it abusive. She does.

Life is harsh. We will not always have the cushy existance of the current modern world.

Dave-W · May 29, 2015

So we have men as abusers and women as victims. At least in the vast majority of abuse cases.

Could that be a result of NOT raising girls to be as tough as the guys?

WolfGate · May 29, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
I would like to say that I disagree with much of what Tony Porter had to say. TO me, to NOT raise boys to be " ... tough .. strong .. courageous .. [show] no pain, no emotions .. no fear.." is part of the "feminization" of western society which is problematic. These are survival skills that are needed. In fact, I see it as advantageous to raise our girls the same way.

Dave - I agree he mixed a few good qualities in with a lot of concerning ones. And I agree we should teach all our children to be strong, courageous and tough (careful with that definition though). The rest of his "man box", well, if someone has been taught that way I agree they need to be liberated from it.

Women can be strong, tough and courageous and still be feminine. (I have a daughter who proves that to me.) Men can be strong, tough and courageous without being dominating or stoic. Men and women are of equal value and can be treated equally without having to be the same. I think that concept gets lost at times.

Dave-W · May 29, 2015

Yeah - it does get lost.

mkgal1 · May 29, 2015

WolfGate said:
What I find interesting, mkgal, is that you largely questioned and essentially dismissed the validity of an article that discussed, and tried to refute, a stereotype of abuse by women - but here you're putting forth an article that centered on a male stereotype and asking us to consider much of the content. Don't get me wrong, I think both the articles are valid and worthy and I am glad you posted this one. What I struggled to convey in the first thread may be clearer now that you have this post. I think both of them had a common purpose - to try and get people to look past the stereotype and understand that the stereotype should not be used as an excuse for bad behavior (the first article) or to keep us naïve to real abuse risks (this article). Hope that makes my thoughts clearer.

Yes.....this *does* clarify your point, I think. I didn't completely dismiss that other article (not saying you said I did----just to clarify again)....there was some validity to it and useful points made (and I mentioned that in that thread). I get what you're saying now, though....and I agree. That's along the lines of "boys will be boys" and just allowing bad behavior to keep on for that reason---it's expected (and excused based on that stereotype).

mkgal1 · May 29, 2015

WolfGate said:
Men can be strong, tough and courageous without being dominating or stoic

Excellent distinction. Well said, WolfGate!

mkgal1 · May 29, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
So we have men as abusers and women as victims. At least in the vast majority of abuse cases.

Could that be a result of NOT raising girls to be as tough as the guys?

I'm a bit trepidatious to ask---but what exactly do you mean? What would that look like.....this, perhaps?

LinkH · May 29, 2015

Wow, that's some OP. It's too much reading for me right now. If people start commenting on little things in those articles, this thread could be all over the place.

mkgal1 · May 29, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
I found this statement telling: "They may not even realize that they are being abused..." If someone is unaware of being abused - are they really being abused?

I was raised in an enviroment that involved frequent spankings with a belt to near-unconsiousness. My wife says my my back has scars from it. I did not consider it abusive. She does.

Your wife is correct. If a person doesn't recognize that how they were treated was abusive (especially in the formative early years---which is typically why it's not acknowledged/recognized)--until they become aware...they will carry false beliefs with them. That's something that "the truth will set you free" applies to.

WolfGate · May 30, 2015

mkgal1 said:
Your wife is correct. If a person doesn't recognize that how they were treated was abusive (especially in the formative early years---which is typically why it's not acknowledged/recognized)--until they become aware...they will carry false beliefs with them. That's something that "the truth will set you free" applies to.

Agree

HannahT · May 30, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
I found this statement telling: "They may not even realize that they are being abused..." If someone is unaware of being abused - are they really being abused?
I was raised in an enviroment that involved frequent spankings with a belt to near-unconsiousness. My wife says my my back has scars from it. I did not consider it abusive. She does.

Life is harsh. We will not always have the cushy existance of the current modern world.

I know my mother for a while had problems admitting things about her home life growing up wasn't all that good. I think in her heart after she got out of the house she did, but she had problems admitting the whole picture until I became an adult. She would only go so far. There was many reasons for it, and I think in part it was due to the fact she loved both her parents. It was hard for her to balance that with what happened.

I think it part it (her recognizing things) was due to us having to deal with my grandfather needing to be removed from the house for his own safety. He had Alzheimer's, and they (grandparents) were in their 80's at that point. We lived in another state, and we asked their state to have him moved to a place so he could be safe. There had been many serious safety issues prior. The state - which is very individualistic - stated if we got him there they would support him staying. I think mom's true realization started when she realized she wouldn't be able to, because she knew he would hit her. That he would hit my grandmother, and the show he would put on over this may alienate her from her mother. My grandmother went along with anything he said, because of his reactions.

I will never forget her saying after a while, "He would hit me all the time, and he would hit Mimi too!" In time he was removed, because they state couldn't ignore the serious safety issues within their household. He was at risk, and so was my grandmother. Sadly, by the time he went he died within a week.

My brother and I can now look back on our life's, and recognize how her home life effected many aspects of our family. We didn't have a cushy existence growing up, but thankfully we didn't have a parent beating the heck out of all of us either. We did have a hard existence in other areas, and I think part of the reason we moved was so that my brother and I were NOT exposed to his violence. Heck, we didn't even know about it until we were adults. Yes, they hid that well. Mom just couldn't deal with it, and so she didn't.

She had a real need for this façade, and I may never understand it. I do see the façade in others as well, and I read about it as well. I think it maybe a coping mechanism partly. I know she had a really hard time being emotionally close to anyone, and she tended to minimize things as well. That wall never really came crumbling down, until she got sick and died last June. Then all kinds of stories surfaced regarding people knowing what was going on in their family, and I think didn't know what to do about it....and so they didn't.

I think discussions and education on this is good. Society really couldn't talk about it in the past. Both parties can get help, and hopefully acknowledge the safety (in this sense) they both deserve. If I were guessing? I would bet my grandfather grew up with a lot of violence, and he just continued the cycle. My parents stopped it. I have so much respect for them in that aspect.

LinkH · May 30, 2015

I think one reason parents don't tell their kids about their parents being abusive is so that the grandchildren won't hate the. They can choose to keep the abuse a secret, but not let the grandparent(s) babysit or be around the kids when they aren't there.

mkgal1 · May 31, 2015

HannahT said:
I know my mother for a while had problems admitting things about her home life growing up wasn't all that good. I think in her heart after she got out of the house she did, but she had problems admitting the whole picture until I became an adult. She would only go so far. There was many reasons for it, and I think in part it was due to the fact she loved both her parents. It was hard for her to balance that with what happened.

I think you're spot on with your conclusion (that it was too hard for your mom to balance both loving her parents and trying to come to terms with what really happened in her childhood). I think that's true in most cases. It's difficult to both love someone *and* admit that they hurt us (and others) terribly. It's also difficult to separate behavior (sometimes loving---other times cruel and destructive). Instead---I think we often sum people up (he's a sweet and loving man----he's hateful and has no patience) and treat them accordingly. I love this quote (and try to keep it in mind):

Statmis said:
There are no “good people” and “bad people.” There are people, with shared humanity, with common brokenness and common potential for redemption. In me lies the person who shoots, the person who lies wounded, the person who steps into the breach to save others, the person who sighs a guilty sigh of relief that he and his daughter are not in harm’s way.~http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lookin...nd-the-heroism-at-seattle-pacific-university/

mkgal1 · May 31, 2015

LinkH said:
I think one reason parents don't tell their kids about their parents being abusive is so that the grandchildren won't hate the. They can choose to keep the abuse a secret, but not let the grandparent(s) babysit or be around the kids when they aren't there.

Personally.....I think it's often b/c parents aren't sure *how* to actually tell (not too far from what you're saying)....especially if they still have a relationship.

HannahT · May 31, 2015

LinkH said:
I think one reason parents don't tell their kids about their parents being abusive is so that the grandchildren won't hate the. They can choose to keep the abuse a secret, but not let the grandparent(s) babysit or be around the kids when they aren't there.

I know I struggled with my feelings towards my grandfather after I found out. I still have fond memories of him, and our insider joke - he would say, "Your are my favorite granddaughter!" and my response was, "I'm your ONLY grand daughter!" Then we would laugh. When we came into town he was the 'Disneyland' grandfather! Took us to ballgames, amusement parks, and when I turned 16? Handed me the keys to his 1968 mustang to drive while I was in town.

Sadly, he also had a bigot side to him. I knew our parents didn't endorse that type of thinking, and we were warned about it. They warned us so we were not taken back by it, and he slowed it down around us because my brother and I rebuked him over it too!

I think secrets are good at a certain age, but beyond that? You need to get real with your kids! It's called life, and you pay attention more when it happens to you. Secrets is what kept my mother in an abusive home, and silence is what enforced it once it was brought out into the open. Everyone knew - including the church. My grandmother was encouraged to stay, and walk on eggshells due to a vow. My mother paid the price for that with her childhood, and sense of no safety growing up. It emotionally damaged her, and its sad that society at that time never took her into account. No one ever stepped up when she was wounded physically or emotionally. Children always pay the bigger price that is completely out of their control. All they did was get born.

I feel society failed her whole family.

Mother never knew anything else but silence, minimizing things, or diverting - because that is how you are raised. Your afraid of feelings, and of being real about them. Your trained to stuff.

I know in time I felt sorry for him. All that rage within him, and no one cared to approach it. What a way to live! Meanwhile, the family is trained to be perfect and find a crystal ball to see in the future...so you don't set him off!

Honestly? I think its a discussion every family needs to have once they reach that age of understanding. Mine came late due to mother's fear of facing things. My brother and I always knew something was UP, but couldn't put our finger on it. Something just wasn't right. You could feel it - even at a young age.

Not an easy discussion, but one that is needed. It brings healing.

Let's See if We Can Discuss Abuse

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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