Explain sola scriptura to me

hedrick

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Matthew 15:2 is exactly what I'm talking about. A show of holiness without the needed heart in the matter.

Yes, but that show took the form of traditional interpretation of the Law. You really can't evade that aspect of the passage. The passage doesn't just accuse the Pharisees of personal hypocrisy, but rather of following "the tradition of the elders." This is not a complete rejection of tradition. After all, Paul defends tradition in another context. But Jesus did reject this one, and others. He is often understood as rejecting the "oral law" completely.

I understand that Catholic touchiness about tradition. But surely the Catholic Church doesn't accept the traditions of the Pharisees. Prov 28:1.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Yes, but that show took the form of traditional interpretation of the Law. You really can't evade that aspect of the passage. The passage doesn't just accuse the Pharisees of personal hypocrisy, but rather of following "the tradition of the elders." This is not a complete rejection of tradition. After all, Paul defends tradition in another context. But Jesus did reject this one, and others. He is often understood as rejecting the "oral law" completely.

I understand that Catholic touchiness about tradition. But surely the Catholic Church doesn't accept the traditions of the Pharisees. Prov 28:1.
Except that it's a different kind of tradition. The Jews followed all sorts of Traditions, and all sorts of traditions. The observance of Passover is one big T Tradition.

I don't care so much about traditions of personal piety. Some do it for show, but it's not part of Tradition. Priestly celibacy is a small t tradition. It's a practice, a discipline, but it's not set in stone. Fasting meat on Fridays, same thing.
 
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hedrick

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Except that it's a different kind of tradition. The Jews followed all sorts of Traditions, and all sorts of traditions. The observance of Passover is one big T Tradition.

I don't care so much about traditions of personal piety. Some do it for show, but it's not part of Tradition. Priestly celibacy is a small t tradition. It's a practice, a discipline, but it's not set in stone. Fasting meat on Fridays, same thing.

I have made no comments about priestly celibacy or any other Catholic tradition, though I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised to know that I disagree with some, but not others. But Jesus objected to a number of traditions of the Pharisees. If you see the Catholic Tradition as equivalent to the Pharisees' "traditions of the elders", then we've got a problem, but I doubt most Catholics would accept that identification.
 
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Root of Jesse

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I have made no comments about priestly celibacy or any other Catholic tradition, though I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised to know that I disagree with some, but not others. But Jesus objected to a number of traditions of the Pharisees. If you see the Catholic Tradition as equivalent to the Pharisees' "traditions of the elders", then we've got a problem, but I doubt most Catholics would accept that identification.
Whether you agree with our practices or not isn't my point. Let me state it succinctly: Do you believe that Jesus was telling the Pharisees they should do away with the celebration of Passover, which was (and is) a big T Tradition?
Our big T Traditions are the doctrines of the Canon of the Bible, the Sacraments, and the Marian dogmas, to name some. These are not changing. Others, as I mentioned are small t traditions, which are practices, which can change. By the way, all our big T Traditions, dogmas and doctrines are supported by Scripture.
 
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hedrick

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Whether you agree with our practices or not isn't my point. Let me state it succinctly: Do you believe that Jesus was telling the Pharisees they should do away with the celebration of Passover, which was (and is) a big T Tradition?


Of course not. He celebrated it himself. It's also in Scripture, not just a Tradition, though surely how it is celebrated was Tradition.
 
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MoreCoffee

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So it's a doctrine found nowhere in Scripture, which means it doesn't meet its own criteria.
If the bible alone were sufficient to define everything necessary for Christian doctrine and morals then why do the hundreds of denominations and tens of thousands of independent groups teach different doctrines and morals? That's one of the fruits yielded from sola scriptura hundreds of denominations and tens of thousands of independent groups.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Of course not. He celebrated it himself. It's also in Scripture, not just a Tradition, though surely how it is celebrated was Tradition.
He also celebrated 5 of our seven Sacraments. Why not you? How they celebrated Passover is also in Scripture.
But I was illustrating a point of what's Tradition and what's tradition. Again, our Traditions are all Scripture-based. (Maybe not your Scripture, but ours).
 
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Albion

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If the bible alone were sufficient to define everything necessary for Christian doctrine and morals then why do the hundreds of denominations and tens of thousands of independent groups teach different doctrines and morals?
Did you miss the all of the last 400 or so answers given to that question?


Now answer this one for us:

If Sacred Tradition were sufficient to define everything necessary for Christian doctrine and morals then why do dozens of denominations and tens of thousands of groups teach different doctrines and morals while claiming that Tradition is their method?
 
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allDid you miss the all of the last 400 or so answers given to that question?


Now answer this one for us:

If Sacred Tradition were sufficient to define everything necessary for Christian doctrine and morals then why do dozens of denominations and tens of thousands of groups teach different doctrines and morals while claiming that Tradition is their method?
I like your post's last paragraph :D the other paragraphs were rather ordinary.

By the way, dozens of denominations and tens of thousands of groups adhere to sola scriptura as their foundation tradition. It hasn't served their doctrinal unity and moral teaching too well so far.
 
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Albion

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I like your last paragraph :D
Wonderful, but I really would like a straight answer some day from one of the Catholics, EO, OO etc. here on CF who say Sola Scripture produces disagreement but who don't mind a bit that every last church that follows Tradition instead disagrees with every other one that also follows Tradition.
 
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Wonderful, but I really would like a straight answer some day from one of the Catholics, EO, OO etc. here on CF who say Sola Scripture produces disagreement but who don't mind a bit that every last church that follows Tradition instead disagrees with every other one that also follows Tradition.
Well, I look at it this way. There are about four main ancient churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Syrian (with affiliates)) so the answer to your question is this; the different ancient churches have some differences because some have departed from holy Tradition at different stages The Orthodox ended their affiliation in 1054 AD, The Oriental Orthodox in 451 AD, the Syrian (and affiliates) in 431 AD so that's why there are some differences. It is a case of accepting less and less of holy Tradition. Now, the above answers your stated question. But it's very likely you'll post a new question and claim it wasn't answered and I'll chuckle and say "what a surprise".
 
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Albion

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Well, I look at it this way. There are about four main ancient churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Syrian (with affiliates)) so the answer to your question is this; the different ancient churches have some differences because some have departed from holy Tradition at different stages The Orthodox ended their affiliation in 1054 AD, The Oriental Orthodox in 451 AD, the Syrian (and affiliates) in 431 AD so that's why there are some differences.


So what? The fact is that there are differences even though all of them reject Sola Scriptura in favor of something else. And if you are saying that the splits here are not over doctrine, we all know that's not so. Even if it were, that also explains why most Protestant denominations have split from other ones. Do you see? It's easy to criticize Sola Scriptura but the proof of the pudding would be to point to something that avoids or prevents such disagreements...and there is none.

It is a case of accepting less and less of holy Tradition. Now, the above answers your stated question.
No, it does not. I might just as well explain that the reason for the diversity of opinion and doctrines among the Sola Scriptura churches is because some of them didn't adhere to it. OK? Does that prove that Sola scriptura works?
 
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Root of Jesse

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Wonderful, but I really would like a straight answer some day from one of the Catholics, EO, OO etc. here on CF who say Sola Scripture produces disagreement but who don't mind a bit that every last church that follows Tradition instead disagrees with every other one that also follows Tradition.

Nobody believes that Sacred Tradition alone is necessary. As far as I know, most Churches that use Tradition and Scripture practice believe essentially the same things. Seven Sacraments, the canon of Scripture, the meaning of the Eucharist, etc.
 
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Root of Jesse

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So what? The fact is that there are differences even though all of them reject Sola Scriptura in favor of something else. And if you are saying that the splits here are not over doctrine, we all know that's not so. Even if it were, that also explains why most Protestant denominations have split from other ones. Do you see? It's easy to criticize Sola Scriptura but the proof of the pudding would be to point to something that avoids or prevents such disagreements...and there is none.


No, it does not. I might just as well explain that the reason for the diversity of opinion and doctrines among the Sola Scriptura churches is because some of them didn't adhere to it. OK? Does that prove that Sola scriptura works?
I don't see any criticism of Sola Scriptura. I see genuine inquiry as to what it means-a universal definition that applies to all denominations. We see SS as part of your version of Sacred Tradition.
 
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.... Now, the above answers your stated question. But it's very likely you'll post a new question and claim it wasn't answered and I'll chuckle and say "what a surprise".

...
No, it does not. I might just as well explain that the reason for the diversity of opinion and doctrines among the Sola Scriptura churches is because some of them didn't adhere to it. OK? Does that prove that Sola scriptura works?

Time for that chuckle and "what a surprise" ;)
 
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Albion

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Time for that chuckle and "what a surprise" ;)

Is that nervous laughter, considering that you can't even attempt an explanation of why Sola Scriptura supposedly doesn't 'work' but, meanwhile, the alternative you've been advocating doesn't either??
 
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FireDragon76

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Christ celebrated Hannukah, which is a commemoration of an event not found in most Protestant Bibles. It was definitely a tradition of Jews, and still is.

I don't see Christ as critical of tradition in general, just some traditions. And I don't even think he insisted on a Biblicist hermeneutic, he insisted on a hermeneutic of love, demonstrated in his own life. Let's put it this way, he seems to have "borrowed" wheat and a donkey, worked on the Sabbath, and done all sorts of things contrary how the Jews understood their law.
 
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Albion

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Christ celebrated Hannukah, which is a commemoration of an event not found in most Protestant Bibles. It was definitely a tradition of Jews, and still is.

I don't see Christ as critical of tradition in general, just some traditions. And I don't even think he insisted on a Biblicist hermeneutic, he insisted on a hermeneutic of love, demonstrated in his own life. Let's put it this way, he seems to have "borrowed" wheat and a donkey, worked on the Sabbath, and done all sorts of things contrary how the Jews understood their law.
We may have too many kinds of tradition being discussed on this thread. :)
 
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