Looking at: "Let your women keep silence in the churches"

Only the married women had to be quiet because the men were sitting at one side and the women at the other with a hedge or something between them, so in order to ask your husband something I think you had to yell.

2ducklow said:

well, the way it works in practice is this. I'm the boss in the family, but I love my wife and we almost always do what she wants because I want to make her happy. So if I want to go to the store and she wants to go somewhere else, I usually do what she wants cause I love her. So that's ok with me just as long as she knows I'm the boss.

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LOL you have a lucky woman.

Messy said:

Only the married women had to be quiet because the men were sitting at one side and the women at the other with a hedge or something between them, so in order to ask your husband something I think you had to yell.

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Would that also make the husband yell if they want to ask something from their wife??

Discrimination of women is pervasive in Jewish culture, more so in the time in Jesus. Its kinda ridiculous trying to make it look it doesn't exist even in early Christianity.

However, Jesus did break the taboo of discrimination of women by many examples. Paul on the otherhand was supportive of the Jewish culture in that regards.

So if you are sincere on gender equality, listen to Jesus only and disregard the teachings of the Pharisee Paul.

timewerx said:

Would that also make the husband yell if they want to ask something from their wife??

Discrimination of women is pervasive in Jewish culture, more so in the time in Jesus. Its kinda ridiculous trying to make it look it doesn't exist even in early Christianity.

However, Jesus did break the taboo of discrimination of women by many examples. Paul on the otherhand was supportive of the Jewish culture in that regards.

So if you are sincere on gender equality, listen to Jesus only and disregard the teachings of the Pharisee Paul.

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Paul just said they shouldn't disturb the service and ask that at home, not there.
He mentioned Prisqa and Aquila, a woman that preached.

Messy said:

Paul just said they shouldn't disturb the service and ask that at home, not there.
He mentioned Prisqa and Aquila, a woman that preached.

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If you mean, Paul only said it to quiet down a bunch of rowdy wives on that occasion, that's fine by me.

It's just many Christians see it as some sort of permanent thing which discriminates women.

And how a wife must treat her husband is another -1 to Paul from me. Jesus espoused equality of the genders by breaking gender taboos.

timewerx said:

If you mean, Paul only said it to quiet down a bunch of rowdy wives on that occasion, that's fine by me.

It's just many Christians see it as some sort of permanent thing which discriminates women.

And how a wife must treat her husband is another -1 to Paul from me. Jesus espoused equality of the genders by breaking gender taboos.

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They made that up because they didn't understand it.
Well Paul says a husband should lay down his life for his wife, so the wife has the easy task. But that's one thing they like to not preach, it's just: obey, obey! Where's my coffee? Obey woman! That's not what Paul said. Cesar Castellanos had a book on it. He was very bossy and told his wife: iron my suit, make my coffee. She just refused and he complained to God that she didn't listen. God told him he shouldn't be so bossy. He said if a husband does his part the wife wants to obey him. I hear noone complaining that we have to obey Jesus, since He isn't bossy and selfish.

Messy said:

They made that up because they didn't understand it.
Well Paul says a husband should lay down his life for his wife, so the wife has the easy task. But that's one thing they like to not preach, it's just: obey, obey! Where's my coffee? Obey woman! That's not what Paul said. Cesar Castellanos had a book on it. He was very bossy and told his wife: iron my suit, make my coffee. She just refused and he complained to God that she didn't listen. God told him he shouldn't be so bossy. He said if a husband does his part the wife wants to obey him. I hear noone complaining that we have to obey Jesus, since He isn't bossy and selfish.

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I like your version.

One problem remains is that Paul did say wives to submit to their husbands.

Paul should have let that part out if the only thing that mattered was husbands loving their wives.

Paul may have falsely assumed that every husband would be more reasonable or more matured / educated than the wife. This may have been true in their times since there are a lot of things women are banned from doing in their times and it may have made them quite innocent (and vulnerable) about everything.

Perhaps, specifically, Paul is only saying to submit to the husband's judgement - in decision making but otherwise, you do not have to satisfy every whim of the husband.

But still, this is no longer applicable in our times. Women have proven to be as capable as men in all things in the modern society. Forbes in fact, made a statistical study and found out that women made better bosses both in driving the company's performance figures and espousing pleasant working conditions.

THus, Paul's teaching is probably only reasonable in their times when women had very little exposure to the real world which leaves them vulnerable, so it's up to the husband to make sure their wives pull through life by his better judgement of things. It may have been better indeed 2000 years ago if you're lucky enough to find an 'okay' husband or better.

But today, it doesn't seem applicable anymore since women attained nearly equal liberties as men (if we take into account other nations and cultures too) and have proven to be as capable as men or even better in decision making. Thus, it becomes irrelevant whether you go with your husband's decisions or not if only for the sake of not having a big argument.

The modern command should now be "love each other".


Sorry for the long read but I have to explain the logic of this and the fact that maybe, many things in the Bible are intended for the culture of 2000 years ago and wasn't meant for ours.

Hi,
Women are different we are not better. If I was better than any male, and if all women were better than males, then other than as sources to make children, you all would otherwise be taken care of and kept out of the picture.
Biblically, I really don't see anywhere, where God said that before Him, in His view, that women are superior. I do not.
One of the things I hate about being female, is not having depth of thought. (Yes I know there are exceptions among females, and there are males who think like females also. Yes, I know this is just God being God, showing us nothing is impossible, and for us all to take a look at our own thought and maybe expand them, adding love.)
Females have breadth of thoughts. Males have depth of thought. Mathematically on average, females handle up to 7 (seven parallel thoughts and conversations at most.) Males think seven layers deep on subjects. So, females are handling seven different items, men are thinking seven levels deep on a single subject.
Now, being male you probably didn't know the female ways of being. Why do you think females can all talk simultaneously, it is because God, your God gave them the ability to handle thoughts in parallel. And that is very good for taking care of husbands and children simultaneously.
However, when I want a problem solved like the roof or the car or just about anything else, it takes me and my girl friends to handle the problem and then it is still difficult. It is rougly 49 times harder for the standard female mind to solve a highly technical problem without using God, than it is for a male to solve the same problem.
Females are different. We are not better than males. We are different than males. We think in breadth, you think in depth. Each has it's benefits.
Oh, by the way, that was just one of the differences.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Hi,
I did leave God out of that. And, it is not to be done. I was brilliant in the male world. I was brilliant to them. It always amazed me that they said that, but it was always God that made me brilliant. I was never brilliant on my own.
One day, I learned that. One day, after finding out God is Real and by proof, but still not knowing how I ever did that proof this happened to me.
There was a major crisis at work. Everyone was brought in to solve the problem in engineering. I was forced to come. (I was the answer person. Always, I solved the problems.) They decided to use a formulaic troubleshooting method, which I dearly hated. I sat through it all. At the end of the day, I am stunned. No one has the answer, and at no point during the day, did the answer come to me.
The day ended, and I am perplexed. I am walking to my car. Many stairs and a slight distance I traveled. The meeting was on the second floor of the large building the company owned.
While still working on the problem, I approached my car. "What's different. I don't have the answer. I know God is Real now. Maybe that is the difference. I will ask....." Instantly the answer, the beautiful woman presence off and above my left shoulder was there, and the feeling was there for all the times in my life I have been brilliant technically.
"Oh, it was always God. All of those years and I just thought the beautiful woman and the feeling were just part of my brain. It was just what happened when I was brilliant. It was always God.................."
Being female and in those days having no husband to help me and my many responsibilities, God was feeding me the answers. Yet, He did not tell me then who or what He Was and Is. However, when I did find out, He outed Himself to me, and no that was not God, the beautiful woman, nor maybe even the feeling. It is something God was doing, to help me, as women can know what is right but maybe the answers not only have to be given to them, but they have to be mightily shown and proven to them.
At least that is my take on the differences, in males and females. You guys can figure out Bible passages. The result of that set of fights, is I get a good set of Bibles that has less work for me to do, when I need an answer.
You see, I don't have time to work on The Bible in detail anymore. I have a family to love. I have many in my family to love, by the definition of love in the Bible. That defintion is to do their will.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Many women have lost their ministry because of the misunderstanding of this verse. Women have a calling on their lives the same as men. I have sat under very anointed women whose church was on fire -

Back in those days the men sat on one side of the church and the women and children sat on the other - women naturally chit chat and they have to keep the kids quiet. Therefore the silence in the verse.

SharonL said:

Many women have lost their ministry because of the misunderstanding of this verse. Women have a calling on their lives the same as men. I have sat under very anointed women whose church was on fire -

Back in those days the men sat on one side of the church and the women and children sat on the other - women naturally chit chat and they have to keep the kids quiet. Therefore the silence in the verse.

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Makes me think of when Benny Hinn came to Holland years ago. The parents just let their kids make noise and run around, hey they're kids, no problem and lol he wasn't used to that, he yelled: QUIET!!!!!!

what bothers me when talking about this topic, is all the people who try to use experience and/or logic to figure out what Paul is intending rather than ask scripture and in that discover the God we don't yet know. Just my two cents.

katerinah1947 said:

Hi,
Women are different we are not better. If I was better than any male, and if all women were better than males, then other than as sources to make children, you all would otherwise be taken care of and kept out of the picture.
Biblically, I really don't see anywhere, where God said that before Him, in His view, that women are superior. I do not.
One of the things I hate about being female, is not having depth of thought. (Yes I know there are exceptions among females, and there are males who think like females also. Yes, I know this is just God being God, showing us nothing is impossible, and for us all to take a look at our own thought and maybe expand them, adding love.)
Females have breadth of thoughts. Males have depth of thought. Mathematically on average, females handle up to 7 (seven parallel thoughts and conversations at most.) Males think seven layers deep on subjects. So, females are handling seven different items, men are thinking seven levels deep on a single subject.
Now, being male you probably didn't know the female ways of being. Why do you think females can all talk simultaneously, it is because God, your God gave them the ability to handle thoughts in parallel. And that is very good for taking care of husbands and children simultaneously.
However, when I want a problem solved like the roof or the car or just about anything else, it takes me and my girl friends to handle the problem and then it is still difficult. It is rougly 49 times harder for the standard female mind to solve a highly technical problem without using God, than it is for a male to solve the same problem.
Females are different. We are not better than males. We are different than males. We think in breadth, you think in depth. Each has it's benefits.
Oh, by the way, that was just one of the differences.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Click to expand...

Hmmm.. I'm actually quite good at multi-tasking. If you mean talking simultaneously while writing an email, taking attendance, and scanning a document and while reading messages at facebook messenger. I could also receive instructions while doing all those.

There's a scientific study that some men have feminine brains and some women with masculine brains.

But the deal breaker here is that our brains can re-wire itself to adapt to a situation on both sexes.

I mean before I'm just your ordinary guy. I'm a fix-it-all literally, from cars to computer and often drive to the limit. But I'm terrible at multi-tasking.

One day, I broke my career, got desperate and had to take a woman's job as a clerk/secretary/receptionist. After one year, I got really good at multi-tasking. I think we could learn everything if we just put our passion in it.

Also, there seems to be just as many women today making big discoveries in science as there are men. One of these women scientists may have discovered our first means to be able to travel vast distances in space, to the stars by warping space - a warp drive. This is a huge deal, and probably the biggest invention ever and it's first done by a woman!

There is hope for change. Don't underestimate our abilities to learn. It's really more about passion than the mind.

razzelflabben said:

what bothers me when talking about this topic, is all the people who try to use experience and/or logic to figure out what Paul is intending rather than ask scripture and in that discover the God we don't yet know. Just my two cents.

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Oh I already did that in another thread. I asked the MJ's if they knew where it said in the law that women had to be quiet in the synagogue and they said: nowhere, Deborah was a leader. Prisqa and Aquila preached, she taught a man about God. Paul said she has to be quiet like the law says. The only thing in the law is that Eve had to listen to Adam, so for me it's clear that women can preach and that's not what he meant.

Messy said:

Oh I already did that in another thread. I asked the MJ's if they knew where it said in the law that women had to be quiet in the synagogue and they said: nowhere, Deborah was a leader. Prisqa and Aquila preached, she taught a man about God. Paul said she has to be quiet like the law says. The only thing in the law is that Eve had to listen to Adam, so for me it's clear that women can preach and that's not what he meant.

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I did a word study on the word quiet here, found out that in the context of the totality of scripture (IOW's scripture confirms the meaning) it means to live peaceably. You know, a quiet life, a life of peace. Women are to live peaceably even in church...wow, earth shattering huh? (sarcasm) but what is more interesting is that woman are also told to live in submission, a submission that the men are to teach her through example....when was that last taught in the church? It really is a fascinating study, but we as a people are too busy trying to figure it out logically and experientially to understand what it is telling us to do. Personally, I got a real problem with that.

oh and from a word study perspective, the teaching about woman not teaching is about usurping her authority...iow's she is to wait her turn and wait for God to open the doors, rather than try to force them open and demand she be given the right to teach....it really is much easier than we try to make it when we try to figure it out in our own power rather than in Gods'

razzelflabben said:

what bothers me when talking about this topic, is all the people who try to use experience and/or logic to figure out what Paul is intending rather than ask scripture and in that discover the God we don't yet know. Just my two cents.

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It seems logic wins here anyway.

People flock (or die tryin') in droves to nations where women have equal liberties as men and the law works to protect women. Something makes such nations quite nice to live the rest of your life and the answer is obvious.

Places where women are discriminated and/or the law does not work to protect them, are awful awful places!!


That's hard evidence for you.

It's my belief that the Word or Truth from God must produce hard evidence and it does! If it does not produce hard evidence, then it is a false teaching.

razzelflabben said:

I did a word study on the word quiet here, found out that in the context of the totality of scripture (IOW's scripture confirms the meaning) it means to live peaceably. You know, a quiet life, a life of peace. Women are to live peaceably even in church...wow, earth shattering huh? (sarcasm) but what is more interesting is that woman are also told to live in submission, a submission that the men are to teach her through example....when was that last taught in the church? It really is a fascinating study, but we as a people are too busy trying to figure it out logically and experientially to understand what it is telling us to do. Personally, I got a real problem with that.

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Oh yes indeed, it meant quiet like in not playing the boss. Lol one guy said: Silent? That's not even physically possible.

I seems to me that we can argue all day and night about what Paul intended, but until we ask the text and pursue God's intent for including it, all we are doing is trying to justify our own bias and wisdom. Personally, I'll take God's wisdom over man's any old day of the week.

timewerx said:

Hmmm.. I'm actually quite good at multi-tasking. If you mean talking simultaneously while writing an email, taking attendance, and scanning a document and while reading messages at facebook messenger. I could also receive instructions while doing all those.

There's a scientific study that some men have feminine brains and some women with masculine brains.

But the deal breaker here is that our brains can re-wire itself to adapt to a situation on both sexes.

I mean before I'm just your ordinary guy. I'm a fix-it-all literally, from cars to computer and often drive to the limit. But I'm terrible at multi-tasking.

One day, I broke my career, got desperate and had to take a woman's job as a clerk/secretary/receptionist. After one year, I got really good at multi-tasking. I think we could learn everything if we just put our passion in it.

Also, there seems to be just as many women today making big discoveries in science as there are men. One of these women scientists may have discovered our first means to be able to travel vast distances in space, to the stars by warping space - a warp drive. This is a huge deal, and probably the biggest invention ever and it's first done by a woman!

There is hope for change. Don't underestimate our abilities to learn. It's really more about passion than the mind.

Click to expand...

Hi,
Yes, but it still took a man, a male to make me understand that. No, matter what, you now having a female brain, or you being able to adapt to working with a group of female brains, and no matter how many scientific ideas any of us females get, realize this and I am brilliant beyond all normal measures, I am professor material, it took you to have me undertand what you just said above. You are male. I can do, not without you. I can't do without males.
It appears you cannot do without us, either. It appears God even thought females, even in spirit form are good. Read Proverbs 8. Read then the first sentence in Proverbs 9.
After you look at the gender, of the first thing made in all of Creation. Look at the gender of that thing. Then go back again, and read Proverbs 8, but with a woman. Ask her, how God felt, and ask her how that thing that was made first in all of Creation felt, about God.
She is God's Gal Pal. Look how she felt about God. I am grateful for you, to make the point you made.
Every place, that I have been brilliant, besides Jesus and that beautiful woman feeding me the answers, the only thing I did, was to find out what every male was thinking. Later, I was quite upset. I kept it to myself.
Now, that I am gone from there, Male-Dears, my most important task was to solve all the natural problems males make, by not talking to each other,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that was done by me.......talking continously........to everyone.
They had all the solutions, to all of their problems. Testosterone got in the way. The solution by God, add a little salt to the same old, same old ingredients. I was the salt, for them, from God. I. I was female. I cannot work easily without talking. They all talked to me. Males do that and I don't know why.
I gave them solution after solution to all of their problems. Problems that they could not solve, year after year after year, and being me, I told them each time, where that solution came from.
Testosterone types don't hear credit where credit is do, and connect that to a solution. So, I constantly get the accolades then. I get the personaly Honorary Ph.D.'s given to me. They always had the answers. I added very littel to any solution.
My Bible instructor, is a male. Most of what I tell you here comes from lessons from males. I happen to love males, they happen to love me and I don't know why, so it's a love love thing. Women are not better than men, we are just different.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .