Navigating the Road to Bible Prophecy... Modern Futurism and Preterism:

Interplanner · May 29, 2015

I make no claim that the "2nd coming" was in 70 AD although all the judgement business with Israel was completed, Lk 21, 1 Thess 2. The wrath of God came completely upon them.

(I have to leave for work pretty soon).

The expectation that everything would happen then is the original understanding; the worldwide judgement was supposed to be 'right after' the stuff in Judea.

That's why 2 Pet 3 is so valuable. It speaks about that delay, unless you think 'coming' there refers to 1st not 2nd. What do you say on that?

ThatTrueLight · May 29, 2015

Interplanner said:
I make no claim that the "2nd coming" was in 70 AD

Wonderful, then let's have a scripture reference to His coming.. How about Revelation 19.. that's a crystal clear prophecy concerning Christ coming to destroy the beast and his false prophet, right?

BABerean2 · May 29, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
When a person like Berean has been shown over and over and over and over again of the straw man they produce.. and then keep on doing it regardless. It's a dead give away that they're not seriously looking for truth, just railing on it.

Many of us are not attempting to convince you of the truth.
That would be a waste of time, since you have plainly stated that anyone who opposes your doctrine is working for the enemy and hates Israel.

We are posting here for the few visiting this forum who are willing to examine what is posted, based solely on what is plainly written in God's Word.

The personal attacks and accusations coming from your team are not helping your side of the debate.
We should be encouraging you to continue them, to show what you are promoting.

Any doctrine that relies on personal attacks and accusations to defend it, is a false doctrine.

God's Word is like a lion. It can defend itself.

ThatTrueLight · May 29, 2015

Thank God you never do that Berean.. otherwise you'd be a... I think that you know.

ThatTrueLight · May 29, 2015

So how about Rev 19 IP... wonderful prophecy concerning Christ's second coming, isn't it?

Amen?

ThatTrueLight · May 29, 2015

There's not a single blood bought Spirit filled Christian around who is going to preach that Revelation 19 has been fulfilled. Those who say otherwise are immediately suspect.

Right Interplanner?

BABerean2 · May 29, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
Thank God you never do that Berean.. otherwise you'd be a... I think that you know.

I believe the word you are looking for is "hypocrite".

No. I would not say you hate Israel or that those who oppose you are working for the enemy.

There is no way I could ever produce the personal attacks that you guys provide on a regular basis.

Your team has turned it into an art form.

I will have to admit, you are the masters in this form of debate.

ThatTrueLight · May 29, 2015

BABerean2 said:
I believe the word you are looking for is "hypocrite".

No. I would not say you hate Israel or that those who oppose you are working for the enemy.

There is no way I could ever produce the personal attacks that you guys provide on a regular basis.

Your team has turned it into an art form.

I will have to admit, you are the masters in this form of debate.

And I'm stunned that you'd take the high road here..

Don't worry, not really.

BABerean2 · May 29, 2015

When driving down the road, we can go into the ditch on either side of the road.

Some have gone so far off the road they are mowing down trees and have branches sticking out of their car, but they insist everyone else is on the wrong road.

They are like the drug addict who continues to say they do not have a problem.

The only thing the rest of us can do is say, "The scriptures say the road is over here.".

The driver of the car mowing down the trees could say, "Hey, I am off of the road."
However, it might hurt their pride a little to admit they veered off of the road.

It is easier to just ignore the scriptures and tell the rest of us how stupid we are.

.............................................

Navigating the Road to the Two Questions and Two Answers in Matthew Chapter 24:

In Matthew chapter 24, Christ gives an explanation to four of His disciples.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

1st Question: ________________________________________________

Christ has just told them the temple would be destroyed in the previous verse.

2nd Question: _______________________________________________

The Greek word “parousia” is used throughout the New Testament to describe His Second Coming.

………………………………...

Do New Testament and historical writings show that Jesus answered the first question within the first half of Matthew, chapter 24?

………………………………...

Mat 24:5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Act 8:9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one

Simon Magus was a deceiver. Confirmed by Jerome.)

………………………

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for allthese thingsmust come to pass, but the end is not yet.

During 66 AD the Roman 12th Legion under the command of Cestius Gallus surrounded the city of Jerusalem. For some unknown reason, he ordered his army to stop the seige. During the retreat the Romans were attacked by the Jews, who killed thousands of the Roman soldiers. (Josephus, War 2.19.7, 540) (Tacitus, The Histories V)

………………………

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

There was a devastating earthquake around 60-62 AD that destroyed much of Colossae, Laodicea, and Hierapolis. This was recorded by Tacitus in his writings as being during the 7th year of Nero.

………………………..

Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The New Testament records the persecution of the early Christians, mainly by the Jews.

This is described specifically in Mark’s Gospel.

Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

The Apostle Paul confirms that he fulfilled this persecution.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

……………………….

Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Col_4:14Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2Ti_4:10For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1Jn_4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

……………………….

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Was the Gospel preached into every nation in the modern world? No.

However, according to Paul it was preached into every nation of his known world.

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Luk 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Does this include Alaska and South America ???

………………………..

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

We know sometime before the final siege of 70 AD the early Christians left the city of Jerusalem. Did they heed the warning in Matthew 24?

A parallel study of the three Gospel accounts reveals the Abomination of Desolation.

During the time of Christ, the Jews celebrated Hanukka. He was well aware of the first occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple, when Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of Zeus (He had previously claimed he was Zeus) in the temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar, during 167 BC.

Hanukkah celebrates the cleansing and rededication of the temple which occurred three years after the abomination of desolation by Antiochus in 167 BC.

Therefore, Christ was predicting a second occurrence of the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse.

Several events could be a possible desecration of the temple during 70 AD. The Roman standards were posted at the temple site. Sacrifices were made to Titus at the temple site. Also, the behavior of the zealots within the temple itself during the siege is regarded by many as a desecration of the temple.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh(near).
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.

Luke’s account above clearly states that the desolation would be near the time that Jerusalem was surrounded by armies.

We know the early Christians did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege.

While He was being taken to the Cross, Jesus warned the women who were weeping for him about what was to come. During this warning He makes a reference similar to that found in Matthew 24:19, about nursing mothers. This warning is also specifically made to these women and their children.

During the siege of 70 AD some women ate their own children, due to the lack of food during the siege.

Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Almost all scholars agree that the following verse is a specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

What do we find in the last half of Matthew chapter 24?

_________________________________________________________

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near,evenat the doors.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth noman,no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noewere,so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41 Two women shall begrinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Based on the language and the context in verses 24:38-39, what happens to those taken in verses 24:40-41?

__________________________________________________________

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for, in His answer to the first question? _____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________

Did Christ give the disciples signs to look for in His answer to the second question? ____

Explain your answer. ____________________________________________________

ThatTrueLight · May 29, 2015

We're not all perfectly tuned into end times like you are... the only way that you would know that others are wrong is if you yourself understand everything perfectly and are the standard for what is correct.

ThatTrueLight · May 29, 2015

And that's not like you're accusing anyone of anything, it's just that you probably think a little more highly of your own opinion.

ThatTrueLight · May 29, 2015

And God forbid if anyone believes the simple truth of the church of God meeting the LORD in the air, they're accused of being deceived by Satan and some here write about how they agree with that.

BABerean2 · May 29, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
We're not all perfectly tuned into end times like you are... the only way that you would know that others are wrong is if you yourself understand everything perfectly and are the standard for what is correct.

I am not needed here at all.

We just need someone to post Galatians 3:16, 3:29, 6:16 or Romans 9:6-8 or any other scripture which shows the Promises only come through Christ and just sit back and wait on you guys to come back with some sarcastic remark instead of using scripture.

Your attempts to win the argument with personal attacks and sarcasm show your doctrine for what it is.

It takes no special talent, because you are so predictable.

If you could defend your 2 Peoples of God, 2 Purposes of God, 2 Kingdoms of God, 2 Second Comings of Christ, 2 Gospels, Scripture "Rightly Divided" into 2 parts, doctrine by showing it in God's Word, that is what you would do.

Since it is a fairy-tale, the next best thing is the sarcastic remarks and personal attacks, which you have perfected.

parousia70 · May 29, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
the only way that you would know that others are wrong is if you yourself understand everything perfectly and are the standard for what is correct.

The ONLY Way?

So that's how you know others are wrong then?

ThatTrueLight · May 29, 2015

parousia70 said:
The ONLY Way?

So that's how you know others are wrong then?

No, I'm deceived and you're not. Christ came in AD70 and so did the resurrection of the dead.. this is it. We made it.

I can understand how miserable that must be, Paul explains it well.

BABerean2 · May 30, 2015

One People of God...

John_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

ThatTrueLight · May 30, 2015

..just as Peter says..

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

BABerean2 · May 30, 2015

Errors in Dispensational Kingdom Theology by Pastor John Otis

ThatTrueLight · May 30, 2015

Maybe it's another 2P2P Presentation.. LOL

Interplanner · May 30, 2015

TTL, What are your beliefs about two peoples and two programs? Dispensationalism says there are two of each and they are skew (having completely separate purposes and outcomes and completions).

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