It is never just and fair to: torture, humiliate and murder the innocent and allow the guilty to go free.
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Do you believe in Original Sin?
- Thread starter GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta
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It is never just and fair to: torture, humiliate and murder the innocent and allow the guilty to go free.
Frogster
Galatians is the best!
Greetings and salutations, but just like how we are now IN Christ, we were in Adam. So we shared his sin, and condemnation prior to conversion
Rom 6, we were united in the death and resurrection of Christ, so likewise when we were in Adam, we were united in him had his sin, as we now have the righteousness of Christ, 2 Cor 5:21, in the last Adam.
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fhansen
Oldbie
I think it's important to note that a "sin nature" is different from the potential to sin. The first implies, the way it's been used here, that man was created with a proclivity to sin, while the latter implies that he was created with the freedom to sin. Freedom was a gift given to man at the beginning. The proclivity to sin arose after mans first act of disobedience, where communion with God was shattered, man becoming his own "god" so to speak, no longer under any superior authority, opening the door to excesses in all areas of his moral life. Adam abused his freedom. Exactly why he didn't refrain from this act-why he gave into the temptation to disobey God-is unclear. But the reason why he did so is important, I think, because it relates directly to the reason that we all sin-or continue to.
Your word "accessories" was not a bad choice IMO, because it comes close to expressing a truth about humans that the doctrine of OS actually means to reveal to us. We not only bear the consequences of Adam's sin, but we also carry on the family tradition to the extent that his rebellion and disobedience (his original sin) remain in us, continuing to foster sin. By this participation we're kind of after-the-fact accessories, affirming Adam's decision and perpetuating it. But to the extent that we turn back to God, reconciling with Him, and away from disobedience, which is actually a process that begins as man comes to, or comes back to, the knowledge of God, resulting in faith, then we become less an accessory; we've begun to see the error of our ancestor's ways, in part due to experiencing the consequences and the sin/evil that results and causes so much harm to ourselves and neighbor.
From this perspective, OS is an aspect of human life, the way we're born, separated from God and His authority, and not necessarily even wanting things any other way, until we, ourselves, with the help of grace, as God calls us, begin to see the light, that Adam was wrong, so we can stop being "accessories" to his crime.
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Christ did not "take your place". Christ's torture, humiliation and murder was for you (as a gift for you) and not done instead of you.
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no, but Romans 5 is clear, Adam was guilty. I mean rom 5 was no unimportant chapter.
Paul’s answer was “because all sinned” and not because Adam sinned?
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Frogster
Galatians is the best!
Greetings! Now you know very well, you picked the most debatable verse in 5. All that means is we see that all sinned, nothing more.
You can't ignore how many times the one word was used, for the one act, the one man, one trespass, all showing federal headship. Why does he repeat the one word alot? What was he saying?
Does grace reign because of you justifying yourself , or what Christ did in 5:17?
Of course you will say for what Christ did, so likewise death reigned because of what Adam did, not because of what you did, or any other human. Besides, death reigned right after the one mans trespass, it followed that trespass in 5:16, not ours, and it reigned from that point, not from the "all" of 5:12.
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
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Substitution Atonement is:
(J&F) It is neither just nor fair, by biblical examples and Jesus.
(L) It is legalistic to an unknown Law, makes God blood thirsty and not like our Father.
(CC) It does not explain why the cruel torture, humiliation and murder (Christ Crucified).
(U) It is universal so everyone is atoned for.
(F) It makes the requirement of “faith” to be almost arbitrary.
(M) What happened is a mystery (we just can’t understand it).
(RA) The ransom analogy/description used by Christ, Paul, Peter, John and in Hebrews is a poor fit.
(MP) Man’s personal participation in the cruel crucifixion is not there.
(BS) Biblical support is weak and/or it does not explain all the verses on Christ Crucified.
I do not agree with the Ransom Theory of atonement either, but any theory will have to fit the ransom analogies used in scripture.
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“Death” reigns in that physical death is highly important to a human with a reigning survival instinct and knowing only this life with no assurance of the next life in heaven. Physical death became necessary as the result of Adam and Eve’s sin, since they showed that man could not fulfill the human earthly objective without including death.
Is death “bad” in and of itself?
Does the Christian today have to fear physical death?
Yes, Adam and Eve brought upon all humans physical death by sinning, but did that hurt or help humans in their fulfilling their objective?
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Gift is not the best word, but I was trying to contrast it to substitution.
What it is: is an unbelievable huge ransom payment. Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and the Hebrew writer all call it a ransom payment to allow the child to be set free and go to His/her parent (God).
Christ is not replacing the kidnapped child, but is paying the kidnapper if the kidnapper will just accept the payment.
The tortured, humiliation and murder of Christ is the payment.
Within each nonbeliever is a child of God waiting to be released (we can only go to the father as little children).
So who is the Kidnapper?
If we say satan: that makes God look very weak and satan looks very powerful, since it would be wrong for even a parent to pay his enemy when the parent could just as easily take the child back without ever having to pay the kidnapper. God does not owe satan anything and satan is totally undeserving.
If we say “God” is the kidnapper, God would be totally deserving, but if the “kidnapper” is totally deserving than it is not a “ransom payment”, but a fair/just payment and He is not a kidnapper. Also, there is the payment of Christ’s tortured, humiliated and murdered body and blood, having “value” to God? From what we know of Christ and God they both would have personally preferred that blood to remain flowing through Christ’s veins.
The only totally undeserving individual remaining is the unbeliever himself. The unbelieving mature adult is the one holding the child of God, back from the Father’s arms. Will that unbeliever accept through faith the ransom of a tortured, humiliated and murdered Christ? That was given “for” him to accept? If the unbeliever does come to the realization that he was the personal cause of Christ going through all Christ went through, than that unbeliever will experience a death blow to his heart (like those on Pentecost Acts 2:37) the worst experience he/she can have and still live. That death blow becomes that person fair/just disciplining from God (his father).
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Frogster
Galatians is the best!
These verses show how he did take our place..it was the unjust for the...
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
Same here...
2 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
He too our place. The exchange is clear in the text. For us to have his righteousness, he had to take our unrighteousness.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
Same here...
2 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
He too our place. The exchange is clear in the text. For us to have his righteousness, he had to take our unrighteousness.
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Frogster
Galatians is the best!
You are not really discussing the actual text.
Are you righteous because of the one act of Christ? The text says so, so why think Adam's one acts, did not make you unrighteous?
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
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Albion
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Let's just read the passage rather than rely upon some webpage and a footnote:
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (NIV)
or
Christ was without sin, but for our sake God made him share in our sin in order that we, in union with him, might share the righteousness of God. (TEV)
Not much question about the meaning there.
.
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