Why would we reject grace?

I think people like to be in control and law/works fit better with our culture. It makes sense to do something in order to get something in return.

joshuanazar said:

How could anyone who has ever experienced God's grace choose to reject it in favor of the Law and work? But that is exactly what happens. Not just in the early churches like Galatia and Corinth, but here in our churches today. I know a lot of people just do it in ignorance and tradition. But, why do they keep ignoring the truth about grace? Why are they so keen to keep following their laws? It really bothers me, when my friends care more about working to obtain God's love then they do about actually experiencing his love.

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who does this ?and what law do you refer to ?

There is the "law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus ".. This amounts to those who have been saved and born again of the holy Spirit ,going on from that point, to walk in the will of god .. To walk in the will of another other then self one must lay down ones own will in order to obey the will of another ..in Our case ,GODs will .. Thus the law of the Spirit of life in Christ JEsus is to walk in obedience to the Holy Spirit .. Is this rejecting gods grace when one does that ? No it is proving Gods word is alive in us by the power of the Holy ghost for without his grace we could not possibly walk in the Spirit because without his grace we were dead in sin . But now being made alive again ,what are we made alive to ? We are made alive unto Christi obedience . Thus if we continue in disobedience we deny his lord ship in us .
For it is by grace we are saved . But it is by obedience that we are continually sanctified and transformed into his image . He has laid in us a foundation and what is built on that foundation we shall be judged for .And our works will be tested whether they be good or whether they be chaff and good for nothing but burning .
It is not rejecting the grace of god to walk in obedience to God in this NEW life in the Holy Spirit ..it Is embracing the very reason God bestowed his grace upon us .

I think some people like to know what they need to do.

They like the idea that it has a start point and an end point. Ritual and routine.

I'm with you though. I love that mine and Gods relationship is between him and I. I am the only me to God and that He will never leave me or forsake me.

Some can't quite understand that. I dunno why. I love that about God!

joshuanazar said:

I am talking about any law that they feel that they need to obey in order to gain or maintain their relationship with God. Some people do trade in bondage to the Law of Moses for bondage to a misinterpretation of the law of the spirit. Simply put a person can work to try and obey what they think the Spirit is telling them. They tell themselves that they have to sanctify their lives for God's use. 2 Corinthians 3:18 tells us that it is the Spirit of God that transforms us into the image of Christ. Or a person can just enjoy their relationship with God that came to us by grace and not of works (whether it be obedience or whatever), and do all of this other stuff, not because we have to but because we just want to.

I don't know if what I said was clear or not so I'll try another way just in case. A person can work, trying to obey some "law of the Spirit", or they can let the Spirit do it's process of sanctification and create in them the fruits of the Spirit that overflow into that person doing all manner of good works because they love being like Jesus and they want nothing more than to live life with these fruits.

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No change for good transpires without obedience.the lord jesus showed this wgen he went to the cross..obedient to the father.

Alithis said:

No change for good transpires without obedience.the lord jesus showed this wgen he went to the cross..obedient to the father.

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And that is why Jesus is perfect.

However, living a life of 'obedience' is not the same as walking WITH God. Many people try to be obedient to what they believe that God wants. In the Old Testament the Israelite's for the most part 'tried' to be obedient, but as we know that did not sanctify them back to God, because God is holy and we are sinners.

The reason that the Father sent Jesus was because the Israelite's could NOT keep all the Law. That is in the Word. Also, salvation is a gift to us. To add an obedience clause to a gift makes someting not a gift anymore but a condition upon recieving the gift which according to the bible is a perversion of the gospel. Paul speaks very plainly about those who change the gospel and it is not a good thing.

Grace is grace. Period. One can speak about how they put their own faith into action, but to put conditions upon grace is changing it. As Christians, this is a huge error in many people's lives.

Walking with God is more of a faith walk than an obedience walk. A faith walk is a walk in faith that we walk with God, not for God.

Good thread. The greatest hindrance to accepting Gods grace is cheap Law....the idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus.

Viren said:

I think people like to be in control and law/works fit better with our culture. It makes sense to do something in order to get something in return.

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joshuanazar said:

How could anyone who has ever experienced God's grace choose to reject it in favor of the Law and work? But that is exactly what happens. Not just in the early churches like Galatia and Corinth, but here in our churches today. I know a lot of people just do it in ignorance and tradition. But, why do they keep ignoring the truth about grace? Why are they so keen to keep following their laws? It really bothers me, when my friends care more about working to obtain God's love then they do about actually experiencing his love.

Click to expand...

joshuanazar said:

How could anyone who has ever experienced God's grace choose to reject it in favor of the Law and work? But that is exactly what happens. Not just in the early churches like Galatia and Corinth, but here in our churches today. I know a lot of people just do it in ignorance and tradition. But, why do they keep ignoring the truth about grace? Why are they so keen to keep following their laws? It really bothers me, when my friends care more about working to obtain God's love then they do about actually experiencing his love.

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Interesting question, brother. It would make a great Bible study, by the way.

It boggles me mind why anyone would reject God's inexplicable grace.

Tragic.

Thank you kindly.

joshuanazar said:

The obedience doesn't bring the change. God brings the change and the change brings the obedience. My actions will always be insufficient, so I might as well stop trying and let God do it in me. While my actions are insufficient, his grace is always sufficient

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Why is there such a difference of opinion on this? It would be nice to know which is true. I for one don't know.

It's tempting to believe that obedience brings change. Not because I want to believe it but because it makes more sense. Why not? Life sucks deal with it, it's a dog eat dog world, only the strong survive. Isn't that what we've seen all our lives? Try harder. How hard should I try? If I don't try hard enough I'm doomed to eternity in hell. Why not? What exactly does God do for us? Apparently He forgave our past sins, after that you're on your own.

It's also tempting to believe that God brings the change and the change brings obedience. It's tempting because the only thing that trying harder has produced in me is a stronger desire to give up. With this view, God not only forgives the sins but He's also giving us the power to stop sinning. It gives God a more active role in our lives. But is it true?

I don't know but I would like to know. Could it be that those who think obedience brings change are ignorant of God's work in them, or could it be that those who think that change brings obedience are only fooling themselves?

How do we know?

Not only that but if change brings obedience, those who tell people otherwise leave the person feeling unnecessarily hopeless. But if obedience brings change, those who tell people otherwise are leading people astray and could be leading the person into eternal damnation. I'm not trying to criticize anyone, but it just seems like an important thing to get straight and yet I see convincing arguments on both sides.

cuja1 said:

Why is there such a difference of opinion on this? It would be nice to know which is true. I for one don't know.

It's tempting to believe that obedience brings change. Not because I want to believe it but because it makes more sense. Why not? Life sucks deal with it, it's a dog eat dog world, only the strong survive. Isn't that what we've seen all our lives? Try harder. How hard should I try? If I don't try hard enough I'm doomed to eternity in hell. Why not? What exactly does God do for us? Apparently He forgave our past sins, after that you're on your own.

It's also tempting to believe that God brings the change and the change brings obedience. It's tempting because the only thing that trying harder has produced in me is a stronger desire to give up. With this view, God not only forgives the sins but He's also giving us the power to stop sinning. It gives God a more active role in our lives. But is it true?

I don't know but I would like to know. Could it be that those who think obedience brings change are ignorant of God's work in them, or could it be that those who think that change brings obedience are only fooling themselves?

How do we know?

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Question:

If obedience brings the change, then why did Jesus Christ have to die?

If human beings were obedient to the Law (of Moses) then why did Christ have to die to give us the Holy Spirit?

I'll answer that. Because no one could keep the Law by obedience.

John 2:10
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Romans 8:1-4
"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

This page https://www.gci.org/law/lawmoses might explain it better.

Read Romans 4-7 to find out how Jesus makes the change.

ToBeLoved said:

Question:

If obedience brings the change, then why did Jesus Christ have to die?

If human beings were obedient to the Law (of Moses) then why did Christ have to die to give us the Holy Spirit?

I'll answer that. Because no one could keep the Law by obedience.

John 2:10
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Romans 8:1-4
"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

This page https://www.gci.org/law/lawmoses might explain it better.

Read Romans 4-7 to find out how Jesus makes the change.

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One could take that to mean that Jesus died to forgive us when we sin, but it doesn't really say that He is the one that helps us not to sin.

ToBeLoved said:

And that is why Jesus is perfect.

However, living a life of 'obedience' is not the same as walking WITH God. Many people try to be obedient to what they believe that God wants. In the Old Testament the Israelite's for the most part 'tried' to be obedient, but as we know that did not sanctify them back to God, because God is holy and we are sinners.

The reason that the Father sent Jesus was because the Israelite's could NOT keep all the Law. That is in the Word. Also, salvation is a gift to us. To add an obedience clause to a gift makes someting not a gift anymore but a condition upon recieving the gift which according to the bible is a perversion of the gospel. Paul speaks very plainly about those who change the gospel and it is not a good thing.

Grace is grace. Period. One can speak about how they put their own faith into action, but to put conditions upon grace is changing it. As Christians, this is a huge error in many people's lives.

Walking with God is more of a faith walk than an obedience walk. A faith walk is a walk in faith that we walk with God, not for God.

Click to expand...

one cannot walk "with GOD " except they walk in obedience .
the y op basicly attacks any one who desires to walk with GOD by accusing them of being legalistic in doing so . yet every one knows when you LOVE some one it is our delight to do as they (not self ) please.. to do whatever pleases them out of love .. this - is the law if the spirit of life in Christ JEsus for god is Spirit and GOD is LOVE .

those who LOVE him prove they do so through their obedience .. not because they are trying to get approved or accepted but because they have already been approved and accepted and love him for it .

the grace of god reconciled us to god for this purpose ..that we may be transformed into the image of Christ and to be transformed by the working of HIS spirit we must be surrendered to the working and the will of the Holy Spirit . if we resist then there is no working until we again submit and we submit to him out of love for him because he first loved us

Alithis said:

one cannot walk "with GOD " except they walk in obedience .
the y op basicly attacks any one who desires to walk with GOD by accusing them of being legalistic in doing so . yet every one knows when you LOVE some one it is our delight to do as they (not self ) please.. to do whatever pleases them out of love .. this - is the law if the spirit of life in Christ JEsus for god is Spirit and GOD is LOVE .

those who LOVE him prove they do so through their obedience .. not because they are trying to get approved or accepted but because they have already been approved and accepted and love him for it .

the grace of god reconciled us to god for this purpose ..that we may be transformed into the image of Christ and to be transformed by the working of HIS spirit we must be surrendered to the working and the will of the Holy Spirit . if we resist then there is no working until we again submit and we submit to him out of love for him because he first loved us

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I am not going to engage with you. We have been around the block and around and around.

When obedience is closely equated with works that is NOT GRACE and I've read your other posts that you insist that people can live without sinning. I've never met a person that understands true grace and feels the need to quantify their living without sin.

cuja1 said:

One could take that to mean that Jesus died to forgive us when we sin, but it doesn't really say that He is the one that helps us not to sin.

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Did you get a chance to read the article I attached to the previous post or Romans 4-7? I had hoped that that additional information would be helpful to you.

Steeno7 said:

Good thread. The greatest hindrance to accepting Gods grace is cheap Law....the idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus.

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Yes it is. Thank you Jesus!

cuja1 said:

One could take that to mean that Jesus died to forgive us when we sin, but it doesn't really say that He is the one that helps us not to sin.

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When Jesus was knew the time was coming for His crucifiction, He told His apostles that He would send a comforter and helper to them. Until Jesus death and resurrection, the Holy Spirit was not available to us. It is only with Jesus death on the cross for sins that we receive the Holy Spirit when we are born-again.

That is one HUGE difference.

John 14:15-20
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will beg in you. 18“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you."

John 14:25-28
“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. 28You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

We also have been given the mind of Christ as well as have had the scriptures written upon our hearts. Both of these things could have only occurred after Jesus death, because until we were reconciled back to God, God could not reside within us.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16
"these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16“For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ."

Hebrews 10:14-18
And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after He says: 16"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
18And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. "


So, we have many advantages being part of the New Covenant (with the death of Jesus and grace) in comparison to trying to be obedient to the Old Covenant (Law of Moses).

Only through the death of Jesus could:

* We be reconciled back to God (which enables the Holy Spirit to reside in our hearts)
* We been given the mind of Christ
* We are given the gift of Salvation by grace (free gift)

None of this was available during the Old Testament times. Jesus set us up for success, to walk with Him.