Daniel 9:27

gospelfer · May 27, 2015

Can't agree Straightshot. Any gap renders the prophetic text unprophetic -- as if God couldn't count. Furthermore they are violations of the theme set out by Moses, Daniel, and John (the trampling of the land). Moreover gaps are not even remotely necessary. And everything is more rational without them.

I explained in the post above yours exactly how the prophets fill in the 2000 years. My explanation (well, "Primary Prophecy"s) fits both the rest of prophecy and history, and it does so with an eerie, impossible exactitude. Seriously, what more can we ask for?!

Straightshot · May 27, 2015

"I explained in the post above yours exactly how the prophets fill in the 2000 years"

Well that is what you think .... and that is OK with me

The wrong rendering belongs to those who have and do refute the breach which is there, and then make un-prophetic and un-scriptural insertions into the same

I notice that you define the 70 weeks of year using the "year for a day" calculation and this standard is in error

The heptad valuation is different and can be proven by the correct calculation of the time lapse for the return of Israel from the Babylonian captivity during Persian rule to build the city of Jerusalem

The first 69 weeks by this calculation is exact equaling 483 prophetic years [each week is equal to 7 360 day prophetic years and based upon a 30 day month] .... converting the Julian calendar from 457 BC puts the ending of the 69th week and the Lord's cutting off exactly on point

This proves the year for a day theory false .... it does not fit

The same calculation method must be used for the remaining balance of the 70th week of 7 years

And the calculation must not be switched to the day for a year idea to come up with an extended amount of time lapse to fill in the breach of 2000 years

The fact is that the prophets fill in nothing for the next 2000 years still ongoing

You cannot find and identify any event upon the earth over the last 2000 years in any prophetic vision

The transition of several human kingdoms from the ending of the northern Seleucid rule in the Middle East to this very day are not in any prophet's vision [there have been several] .... neither are the following events: the crusades, inquisitions, french revolution, WW1, WW2, the holocaust, etc.

So the prophets do not fill in the last 2000 years of the historical record .... simply not there

The Lord says nothing in His discourse about events upon the earth over the 2000 year breach, but is looking longer to the pending 70th week just as do His prophets .... 70 AD was not the time of the end as He describes the remaining and future 70th week decreed for Israel .... the time of Jacob's trouble .... the same period of His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world

gospelfer · May 27, 2015

Straightshot said:
Well that is what you think .... and that is OK with me
The wrong rendering belongs to those who have and do refute the breach which is there, and then make un-prophetic and un-scriptural insertions into the same

The question is what constitutes a correct rendering. I would argue that we need something that fits both history and prophecy. That is, we need a model that is both internally and externally consistent.

Daniel 2 and 11/12 very strongly imply a continuous history leading up to the millennium. We insert a breech because up until now because we haven't yet figured out how to fit the prophecy to history. "Primary Prophecy" provides a rational way to fit the long-term linear prophecies to existing history -- and it does this without any suspicious hackery. In fact, it gets rid of all suspicious "forcings". And it doesn't have to omit "unhelpful" prophecy or history. Everything fits. Perfectly.

One of the stupendous benefits of this is that we have a much larger pool of fulfilled prophecy. Scripture's evidence is much magnified.

Another evidence of the author's penetration is that he is able to offer rational and brilliant explanations for things like the Messiah's title "Shiloh" (Gen 49), circumcision, Gensis 15 (the torch and smoking furnace), God's attempt on Moses' life, along with a host of other things which don't appear to be related to prophecy, but are. In short, all the things that have a frighteningly irrational (or primitive) appearance are shown to be perfectly rational -- and very frequently an expression of the prophetic. This is not a small matter. These explanations are also inseparable from the book's prophetic model -- the explanations of these things grow naturally out of the prophetic model. It is a stunning accomplishment.

Straightshot · May 27, 2015

I will post this again for emphasis:

I notice that you define the 70 weeks of year using the "year for a day" calculation and this standard is in error .... and your model simply does not prove out

The heptad valuation is different and can be proven by the correct calculation of the time lapse for the return of Israel from the Babylonian captivity during Persian rule to build the city of Jerusalem

The first 69 weeks by this calculation is exact equaling 483 prophetic years [each week is equal to 7 360 day prophetic years and based upon a 30 day month] .... converting the Julian calendar from 457 BC puts the ending of the 69th week and the Lord's cutting off exactly on point

This proves the year for a day theory false .... it does not fit

The same calculation method must be used for the remaining balance of the 70th week of 7 years

And the calculation must not be switched to the day for a year idea to come up with an extended amount of time lapse to fill in the breach of 2000 years

The fact is that the prophets fill in nothing for the next 2000 years still ongoing

You cannot find and identify any event upon the earth over the last 2000 years in any prophetic vision

The transition of several human kingdoms from the ending of the northern Seleucid rule in the Middle East to this very day are not in any prophet's vision [there have been several] .... neither are the following events: the crusades, inquisitions, french revolution, WW1, WW2, the holocaust, etc.

So the prophets do not fill in the last 2000 years of the historical record .... simply not there

The Lord says nothing in His discourse about events upon the earth over the 2000 year breach, but is looking longer to the pending 70th week just as do His prophets .... 70 AD was not the time of the end as He describes the remaining and future 70th week decreed for Israel .... the time of Jacob's trouble .... the same period of His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world

Please provide one significant event upon the earth of the last 2000 years that you can find in any prophet's vision

Also I would like your rendering of Daniel 11:21-35 ..... and the following of Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7

Thank you

gospelfer · May 27, 2015

Straightshot:
Your proof against the year for day model is not a proof. Daniel says the anointed is one is cut off after the 69th week. The spiritual accomplishments of verse 24 put a maximum boundary on the anointed one of 70 weeks. Thus, Daniel provides us a range of time, not a year. Both models fit this. Note that I am not claiming that my interpretation disproves yours. I am merely pointing out that "mine" also fits Daniel's text.

If you want a nice bit of evidence from the center of Daniel 11 supporting my contention, looking at Dan 11:16. It is the description of an unstoppable military might, standing in the "glorious land" holding "destruction in his hand". It is an arresting image, and anyone familiar with the Jewish prophetic framework will immediately recognize this: it is Moses' destroying power. It is required by the prophetic story. It "holds destruction in it is hand" because it is the power that destroys the Messiah, the Temple, Jerusalem, and Israel as a nation. It sets its strength (having righteousness or righteous men) to enter the kingdom because it is the nation(s) that enters into the new covenant. It gives the daughter of women to destroy the kingdom because Mary veneration is not scriptural. Unlike other kingdoms, this kingdom is not pushed out of the holy land but collapses from within -- as did the Roman empire -- "it stumbles and is not found". Verse 20 is the Sassanid empire. Verse 21 starts the rise of Islam. If you go through this, you will see that the sequences of invasions across the land (or their absence) and their directions match actual history with an impossible accuracy.

The author's description of the Seleucid/Potlemaic conflict is equally compelling.

So yes, Daniel 11 contains a description of the last 2000 years. This is good news, not bad -- because there is no point in the texts of 2, 7, or 11/12 where we can say here is where Daniel is suggesting a historical hiatus. It simply doesn't exist.

vinsight4u · May 27, 2015

Straightshot · May 27, 2015

Your proof against the year for day model is not a proof. Daniel says the anointed is one is cut off afterthe 69th week.

Just at the ending .... His cutting off ended the 69th week [33 AD]

The exact time lapse from 457 BC .... 483 prophetic years

The 70th is still pending .... and this is why remnant part of Israel has returned to the Middle East in our day for experiencing the same .... the coming time of Jacob's trouble

gospelfer · May 27, 2015

Straightshot said:
Your proof against the year for day model is not a proof. Daniel says the anointed is one is cut off afterthe 69th week.

Just at the ending .... His cutting off ended the 69th week [33 AD]

The exact time lapse from 457 BC .... 483 prophetic years

The 70th is still pending .... and this is why remnant part of Israel has returned to the Middle East in our day for experiencing the same .... the coming time of Jacob's trouble

After the 69th heptad means in the 70th heptad. There is no possible escape from this conclusion because there is nothing ambiguous about the "after". This conclusion is also strongly implied by the 70 heptad constraint of verse 24, which describes the spiritual accomplishments of the Messiah in his first advent.

The heptad of the prince uses a totally different time-scale -- it is the same heptad one finds in the rest of Daniel, and it is the heptad spanning Israel's 2600 year curse, which Daniel splits into 1290 and 1335 years. Don't forget that this longer heptad is painted as a single man two other times: as Daniel's metal man, and as Nebuchadnezzars madness whose duration is also 7. This model fixes everything.

Don't dismiss this model out of hand. Look at it closely; play with it a bit. Daniel 12 suggests that we should be looking for something new.

Interplanner · May 27, 2015

The things that are described in the 70th have occurred; you just have to make your antecedents are working correct. It refers to both Christ and to Rome. The last verse allows for war/revolution to continue until the end of Israel as they knew it. The rebellion that desolates was an expression from 8:13 and it also is completed in that period.

There is no reason why a gap should be inserted; it is coherent. It helps of course to know what happened in NT history.

There is no prophetic significance to the secular state. There are no NT verses about that kind of thing. The time of enormous trouble was the cataclysm of 66-72 AD in Judea. It was needless and extremely destructive.

gospelfer · May 27, 2015

There is prophetic significance to the secular state. Joel says that national Israel just before then millennium experiences a short exile in which it suddenly catches fire for God. There are many other suggestions of invasion of Israel just before the millennium. Israel did not drop out of the story because it was cursed; the curse (and its apostasy) is actually part of the story. If there were not an apostate Israel just before the millennium, we would have a serious prophetic incoherence.

clemenslee · May 27, 2015

Straightshot said:
I will post this again for emphasis:

I notice that you define the 70 weeks of year using the "year for a day" calculation and this standard is in error .... and your model simply does not prove out

The heptad valuation is different and can be proven by the correct calculation of the time lapse for the return of Israel from the Babylonian captivity during Persian rule to build the city of Jerusalem

The first 69 weeks by this calculation is exact equaling 483 prophetic years [each week is equal to 7 360 day prophetic years and based upon a 30 day month] .... converting the Julian calendar from 457 BC puts the ending of the 69th week and the Lord's cutting off exactly on point

This proves the year for a day theory false .... it does not fit

The same calculation method must be used for the remaining balance of the 70th week of 7 years

And the calculation must not be switched to the day for a year idea to come up with an extended amount of time lapse to fill in the breach of 2000 years

The fact is that the prophets fill in nothing for the next 2000 years still ongoing

You cannot find and identify any event upon the earth over the last 2000 years in any prophetic vision

The transition of several human kingdoms from the ending of the northern Seleucid rule in the Middle East to this very day are not in any prophet's vision [there have been several] .... neither are the following events: the crusades, inquisitions, french revolution, WW1, WW2, the holocaust, etc.

So the prophets do not fill in the last 2000 years of the historical record .... simply not there

The Lord says nothing in His discourse about events upon the earth over the 2000 year breach, but is looking longer to the pending 70th week just as do His prophets .... 70 AD was not the time of the end as He describes the remaining and future 70th week decreed for Israel .... the time of Jacob's trouble .... the same period of His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world

Please provide one significant event upon the earth of the last 2000 years that you can find in any prophet's vision

Also I would like your rendering of Daniel 11:21-35 ..... and the following of Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7

Thank you

If there is nothing for the last 2000 years, then how can you state in the anything but thread that 1948 was a prophetic occurance, unless I miss understood what you were saying.

gospelfer · May 27, 2015

Israel being in the land is in prophecy, in Isaiah 11, Joel 3. A gap theory would have to posit that it is part of prophecy, but that the 7 year clock has not yet started. Though in some sense possible, I don't find this to be particularly prophetic. Gaps destroy prophetic believability.

The model I outlined above eliminates all gaps, and leaves all prophecy in a believable form.

Interplanner · May 28, 2015

The day = year model is not fixed. The worst of the battle between 'the rebellion that desolates' and Rome was about 3.5 years. But even that detail does not matter in the last verse, which accurately summarizes the whole 1st century as war will continue until the end, in which "end" is the end of the city and temple.

clemenslee · May 28, 2015

gospelfer said:
Clemenslee is on the right track! He correctly identifies Daniel's primary theme: gentile trampling of the Land -- the Mosaic curse. Daniel's prophecies are a series of different lenses through which we can look at this period.

There is no gap in the 70 heptads. The prince's heptad is a separate one using the same heptad measure used in the rest of Daniel's prophecies.

This heptad is approximate, but we are given its exact duration in Dan 12, where it is broken into two halves:
1290 and 1335 years.

The first 1/2 heptad starts with Nebucadnezzars 597 destruction of the city, and ends with the 692+ construction of the abomination of desolation (the Dome of the Rock).

The second 1/2 heptad picks up there.

Note how well this mates with Revelation: The first beast (the first 6 heads) last 1260 years from the 1/2 heptad's start. The sixth head has a dead period during which the world thinks the beast has ceased as a threatening force; This sixth head ends around 1950, marking the time when the ME was returned to Muslim autonomy. Thus the dead period is that leading up to 1950. This has an uncanny coherence with history.

Note that this satisfied a number of things: Daniel's theme is maintained; it starts with Nebuchadnezzars sack of Jerusalem (the starting of the trampling), and sticks to the land throughout. There are no gaps. And dates line up amazingly well. Furthermore it explains the sequence of the beasts 6 heads as the succession of Muslim powers to control Jeruslam: Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid, Mamalukes, Ottomans. Of course, now we are in the the 7th head (2nd beast), which Daniel describes as being fragmented, and in conflict.

It also explains why Daniel 2's feet are iron welded by clay, and it also explains why Daniel 11 describes the last human trampling power as a monotheistic religious one whose principle is war. Thus, chunks of iron are the 7 heads, and the welding clay is Islam. It also explains the repeated assertion of its success and its wearing out belief. The problems this solves are too numerous to list.

"Primary Prophecy" contains a detailed explanation of all this (and much more besides) -- its on Amazon.

I appreciate the comment, its probably one of the only positive ones I've received about my view which I do believe is Gods word.

The heptad is not approximate is spot on in that, the day for a year principle uses a conversion factor to go OT to NT, because we are looking at it from a 365.24 day year not a 360 day year. I believe the 1290years spanned from the time the daily sacrifice ceased during Daniels time (Daniel 12) under nebuchadnezzar in 23rd year of his reign in 583BC. The conversion factor is 360 day/year / 365.24 day/year = .9857, so you multiply 1290x.9857=1271.553. 1271.553-583BC=688.53. 688 is exactly to the dome of Rock.

1335 years I believe is even more spot on. Using the same day for a year conversion factor. 1335x.9857=1315.9095. 1315.9095-583BC=732AD. 732AD was the battle of tours which stopped the spread of Islam from overflowing into France etc. It's said, if this war didn't turn out the way it did, we would all be practicing Islam today and there would be no Christianity. Look up the history to it. Plus you have to add on time that it was also during the Dark Ages when Christianity was in a all time low. It set back Islam enough to allow Christianity to build itself back up. I believe thats partly what the two witnesses in revelation clothed in sackloth was about but thats another subject.

Straightshot · May 28, 2015

My comment

The converted dating from the return to the cross proves out to be the correct prophetic year .... of 360 days each .... and there is one 7 left that is still pending .... a period of 2520 days

And the year for a day theory simply does not fit the above calculated time lapse .... not even close

If you want the correct time lapse you must use a 360 prophetic year, 30 day month, and convert the Julian calendar to the prophetic year making the proper adjustments for the first century turn and leap years

If done, Daniel's prophecy is absolutely spot on .... his prophecy is 100% accurate and the same calculation method must be made for the remaining 7

gospelfer · May 28, 2015

clemenslee said:
I appreciate the comment, its probably one of the only positive ones I've received about my view which I do believe is Gods word.

The heptad is not approximate is spot on in that, the day for a year principle uses a conversion factor to go OT to NT, because we are looking at it from a 365.24 day year not a 360 day year. I believe the 1290years spanned from the time the daily sacrifice ceased during Daniels time (Daniel 12) under nebuchadnezzar in 23rd year of his reign in 583BC. The conversion factor is 360 day/year / 365.24 day/year = .9857, so you multiply 1290x.9857=1271.553. 1271.553-583BC=688.53. 688 is exactly to the dome of Rock.

1335 years I believe is even more spot on. Using the same day for a year conversion factor. 1335x.9857=1315.9095. 1315.9095-583BC=732AD. 732AD was the battle of tours which stopped the spread of Islam from overflowing into France etc.

Clemenslee: we have both concluded that the 1290 is the measure in years from the Babylonian cessation of offerings to the construction of the Dome. I suspect we arrived at this conclusion largely by the same path.

I had already done all the calculations you suggest several years ago; I discarded them in favor of 597/692 for some very sound reasons:

1. The 583 date for the final fall of Jerusalem has been totally discredited. The best scholars (and these are harmonizers [Thiele,etc] sympathetic to scripture) have settled on either 587 or 586 for Jerusalem's second sack. Israel's king chronology has now been fully (and rationally) harmonized within a couple months of actual history, and there is no longer any respected scholar who holds to 583.

2. The date found engraved on the inside of the Dome is 72 AH. This translates into 691/692 AD, not 688. Furthermore, recent scholarship has shown that most early Islamic monumental architecture records the command-to-build date, not the start of work or completion. Thus, there is a very good chance that 692 was the year Abd' al Malik gave the command for the Dome to be built. It is not certain, and it is very possible we shall never know for sure.

3. Using 597/692 allows us to ditch the "prophetic" year, and its decimal math. This is a good thing! It vastly simplifies all calculations. Now a 10 year old can do the math in a minute.

4. I know about Tours and Charles Martel. It does not qualify for the blessedness the angel assigns the 1335 in Daniel 12. There were any number of battles critical to saving Europe from the Muslim horde. The Battle of Masts was as big. So was Vienna. The angel is not speaking of temporary relief, but rather the permanent lifting of the Islamic threat, and the end of the Mosaic curse (the trampling of the land). Thus, this 1335 is not added to Nebuchanezzars sack, but rather to the AoD's date. The difference in length between Daniel's latter 1/2 heptad (the 1335) and the duration of John's first Beast, is the duration of John's second Beast (the 7th head). Play with it a bit, and you will see that John is providing an insanely accurate picture of Islam's history.

Thus, we are in basic agreement, but I think the dates I posit satisfy the prophecy, are more accurate to history, and are simpler to calculate.

gospelfer · May 28, 2015

Interplanner said:
The day = year model is not fixed. The worst of the battle between 'the rebellion that desolates' and Rome was about 3.5 years. But even that detail does not matter in the last verse, which accurately summarizes the whole 1st century as war will continue until the end, in which "end" is the end of the city and temple.

You say that the "end" is that of the city and the temple.

This is one possible interpretation.

There is another. Daniel also uses "end" to mean the end of God's indignation against Israel, and the end of the trampling of Jerusalem by gentile kingdoms -- which, by the way, is Daniel's primary theme.

Straightshot · May 28, 2015

"If there is nothing for the last 2000 years, then how can you state in the anything but thread that 1948 was a prophetic occurance, unless I miss understood what you were saying."

1948 was not an event that that appears in any prophetic vision

Neither are the wars that Israel has fought since the return for example

The 70th week has not begun, but in order for a prophecy to come to pass there needs to be the correct setting for it .... the 1948 event needed to happen in order for the beginning of the 70th week to start which it has not to date .... the same period will also include the coming tribulation of the Lord's judgment that will effect the entire earth

And there will be no warning or signs given before the starting point ...He will move as a thief does giving no warning [Matthew 24:36-39]

It is the Lord who controls prophetic events and when He is ready He will initiate the dating .... and He has not revealed the dating of the beginning of the 70th week

There are many variables that must be a part of bringing a prophecy to begin and end

For example: the 70th week could not have come until Israel returned to the land and the particular setting described in the Middle East in the visions must also be in place for the prophecy to be fulfilled

The Lord knows all of the details in advance including the timing, and He will bring the events on His schedule

The setting for the 70th week must include Israel surrounded by the nation's virulent enemies who must possess the wherewithal for successfully invading Israel and occupying the same

And the little horn caliph of the northern Middle must be on the scene in order for the complete fulfillment

So there is a lead time of necessity to bring the related prophecies into reality

The uniqueness of the disparate 70th week must require a stage setting before day 1 of the time frame of 2520 days begins

The Lord already knows the start date .... we do not, and timing of His related intervention to execute only He knows

If we look at the setting in the Middle East today and also know the related prophecy recorded in the visions we can say that the players are now in place .... I see nothing that has to be added to the current setting

So the Lord could execute at any time, could be before this day is over .... or it may be longer

Interplanner · May 28, 2015

re 117:
That theme is not Daniel's, but theologians. What the text says is the Gospel of Christ is the theme. The prayer was for the people to change their ways so their blessings would be restored. The answer was not the behavior of the people. (Actually, they worsen. The thing mentioned in 8:13 becomes full-blown and is the background of the vocab 'desolation' in 9.) The answer was Christ's atonement and Gospel. Then the rebellion that desolates, which despises this Gospel, has its way and ruins the country.

This sets up the tension in the book of Acts between what would happen to Israel if it continued in that kind of Judaism (that of the zealots) vs what would happen if they became like Paul, who was shown not to be disruptive to Roman authorities by several key exchanges in Acts; it may even be the purpose for assembling Acts' material--to defend Paul, and perhaps save his life. Israel was supposed to become the missionaries envision in Acts 13:47 in which they become light to the world by spreading the word of the Light of the world; it's a quote from Isaiah.

re the trampling. This is one of the "until" which futurist theologians see and assume that their next phase is the next thing. The fact that "until" can mean for the duration right to the end, never occurs to them when reading this nor Rom 11 about hardness. Until does not guarantee anything afterward. It often has the simple sense of "for the duration."

Interplanner · May 28, 2015

The 70th week occurred after the 69th and contained the Gospel. There was a destructive war in Israel after that ending with that generation, like Christ had said in Lk 23, where he said that the behavior of Israel would be worse than what they were doing on his crucifixion day. Worse! Think about that!

Daniel 9:27

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