Atheist/Christian Discussions

cloudyday2 · May 27, 2015

I noticed this thread and had some thoughts and questions on this subject

Parogar said:
I'm a nonbeliever genuinely interested in learning more about Christianity. But I find that, anywhere on the internet I go to speak to Christians, it is always inhabited by an even greater number of arrogant atheists who are in all honesty the most insufferable people I've ever seen: a rabid pack of intolerant atheists who arrogantly seek to embarrass, denigrate, and disparage Christians.
...

(1) Christian members are often treated rudely on atheist forums.

(2) Non-Christian members are almost always censored on Christian forums (including this one).

(3) Christian forum members seem to dislike atheists. Several times I've been encouraged to label myself an an "agnostic" or a "seeker", because I seemed too reasonable to be an "atheist". After changing my label on this forum from "seeker" to "atheist", I seem to have experienced more strict enforcement of rules, suspicion of my motives, etc.

(4) Is there really anything that Christians and atheists can discuss about religion? Most atheists know all about Christianity already. Most Christians know all about atheism already. Christians can preach the same things that the atheists have heard and rejected. Atheists can ask Christians for convincing evidence that Christians can't supply.

(5) Does anybody know of a forum where Christians and atheists lie down together like sheep and lions to have fruitful discussions?

annafullofgrace · May 27, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
I noticed this thread and had some thoughts and questions on this subject

(1) Christian members are often treated rudely on atheist forums. This does seem to happen frequently.

(2) Non-Christian members are almost always censored on Christian forums (including this one). I haven't been on the forums long enough to know anything about this.

(3) Christian forum members seem to dislike atheists. Several times I've been encouraged to label myself an an "agnostic" or a "seeker", because I seemed too reasonable to be an "atheist". After changing my label on this forum from "seeker" to "atheist", I seem to have experienced more strict enforcement of rules, suspicion of my motives, etc. Not sure about this either.

(4) Is there really anything that Christians and atheists can discuss about religion? Most atheists know all about Christianity already. Most Christians know all about atheism already. Christians can preach the same things that the atheists have heard and rejected. Atheists can ask Christians for convincing evidence that Christians can't supply. I would say that both sides need to be willing to hear the other. Of the posts that I have seen of athiests asking questions and a Christian will answer and the athiest has a condescending answer and isn't willing to listen or give two hoots about the response. Why bother asking if you're are just going to disregard the answer rather than accepting this is why a Christian believes .... I do think we can certainly learn from each other. I've been on both sides of the fence, so maybe it's easier for me to see.

(5) Does anybody know of a forum where Christians and atheists lie down together like sheep and lions to have fruitful discussions?

. Not sure. I'm happy to engage in an adult discussion, but if one side is going to be nasty-I'm done.

oi_antz · May 27, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
After changing my label on this forum from "seeker" to "atheist", I seem to have experienced more strict enforcement of rules, suspicion of my motives, etc.

Atheists can ask Christians for convincing evidence that Christians can't supply.

I found these observations most interesting. What do you make of it?

cloudyday2 · May 27, 2015

annafullofgrace said:
. Not sure. I'm happy to engage in an adult discussion, but if one side is going to be nasty-I'm done.

I also can't think of any forums where atheists and Christians can meet as equals. If there is anything that atheists and Christians should be discussing, it is a shame that there seems to be no neutral venue. As a Christian, I certainly wouldn't want to go to an atheist forum to be ridiculed by atheists who amuse themselves that way. As an atheist, I often feel that I must be very careful not to offend Christians when I go to their forums. Sometimes this makes it difficult to ask the questions or make the arguments that I would like to make. In fact, many Christian forums do not allow atheist members.

Maybe it doesn't matter, because what is there to say?
Atheist: "you Christians are silly".
Christian: "you atheists must have faith".
(Not much of a conversation really.)

cloudyday2 · May 27, 2015

oi_antz said:
I found these observations most interesting. What do you make of it?

The labels "atheist", "agnostic", and "seeker" can all be applied honestly to most atheists. Christians see distinctions in these labels due to the stereotype personalities they suggest.
Athiest: stereotype is arrogant person who tells Christians "there can be no gods".
Agnostic: stereotype is humble person who doesn't claim to know if gods can exist.
Seeker: stereotype is earnest person seeking gods (i.e. a potential Christian convert).
Of course, those stereotypes are just stereotypes.

I'm not sure what to say on the second point you asked about.
When atheists ask Christians why they believe, the Christians never have a very convincing reason.
When atheists point-out philosophical incoherencies, absurdities, inconsistent teachings, etc., the Christians say "the Lord works in mysteries ways", "we will understand it better when we go to heaven", etc.

annafullofgrace · May 27, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
I also can't think of any forums where atheists and Christians can meet as equals. If there is anything that atheists and Christians should be discussing, it is a shame that there seems to be no neutral venue. As a Christian, I certainly wouldn't want to go to an atheist forum to be ridiculed by atheists who amuse themselves that way. As an atheist, I often feel that I must be very careful not to offend Christians when I go to their forums. Sometimes this makes it difficult to ask the questions or make the arguments that I would like to make. In fact, many Christian forums do not allow atheist members.

Maybe it doesn't matter, because what is there to say?
Atheist: "you Christians are silly".
Christian: "you atheists must have faith".
(Not much of a conversation really.)

Darn...I'm still having a hard time with quotes since the site changed....I did respond to the other questions. Sorry about that.

I will say that when asking anything, it's all in how it is approached. And that matters to me with any area of interests. I don't need someone to walk on eggshells when asking about my faith, but I don't appreciate someone asking in sarcasm and acting like I must have a lower intelligence because I am a Christian.

annafullofgrace · May 27, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
The labels "atheist", "agnostic", and "seeker" can all be applied honestly to most atheists. Christians see distinctions in these labels due to the stereotype personalities they suggest.
Athiest: stereotype is arrogant person who tells Christians "there can be no gods".
Agnostic: stereotype is humble person who doesn't claim to know if gods can exist.
Seeker: stereotype is earnest person seeking gods (i.e. a potential Christian convert).
Of course, those stereotypes are just stereotypes.

I'm not sure what to say on the second point you asked about.
When atheists ask Christians why they believe, the Christians never have a very convincing reason.
When atheists point-out philosophical incoherencies, absurdities, inconsistent teachings, etc., the Christians say "the Lord works in mysteries ways", "we will understand it better when we go to heaven", etc.

But that is just it, as a Christian, I am content with that there are some things that I will not understand until I am in heaven. I've had atheist friends who can't wrap their head around that and will insist on an answer. For a Christian, we believe sometimes there isn't one....we have faith that God does everything for our good and sometimes we may never know the why's, but we accept it. Of course, I don't know what you may be thinking on specifically from the quote below.

When atheists point-out philosophical incoherencies, absurdities, inconsistent teachings, etc.,

oi_antz · May 28, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
The labels "atheist", "agnostic", and "seeker" can all be applied honestly to most atheists. Christians see distinctions in these labels due to the stereotype personalities they suggest.
Athiest: stereotype is arrogant person who tells Christians "there can be no gods".
Agnostic: stereotype is humble person who doesn't claim to know if gods can exist.
Seeker: stereotype is earnest person seeking gods (i.e. a potential Christian convert).
Of course, those stereotypes are just stereotypes.

Not "seeker", not "honestly to most". Honestly to a lot, up to a point. But if it was honestly all the way, they would have found Him already. Doesn't take long when you set your mind to it.

cloudyday2 said:
I'm not sure what to say on the second point you asked about.
When atheists ask Christians why they believe, the Christians never have a very convincing reason.
When atheists point-out philosophical incoherencies, absurdities, inconsistent teachings, etc., the Christians say "the Lord works in mysteries ways", "we will understand it better when we go to heaven", etc.

I have found, quite reasonably too, that what is convincing to one person is not necessarily convincing to another. Then there will be Christians who find a Christian's evidence convincing when it is not objectively convincing, because they like to team up and support their brother. It's like Christians seem to think that anyone who does not acknowledge Jesus as Lord is someone who is lost, and heir blood is on their hands so to speak if they fail to convince them to change their mind. I understand this motivation, since that is the doctrines they have accepted. You probably see my motivation the same. But it's for me, more a concern that those who don't regard Him their Lord, they just have this wrong idea of who He is, what it means. That has to be put right, because you are one of those guys who will love Him and follow Him when you meet Him. Not everyone is that sort of person though. I still do not like to allow the wrong ideas to be portrayed about Him, and I get some sort of offended when He is mocked for being who He isn't. That's my motivation.

But I am curious at this, you have said it all one-sided. What do you say about non-believers when their logic is flawed, and when they refused to go where the Christian is leading, and instead take it back to square one, and then blame the Christian for being circular? Really man, those who are determined to not repent and acknowledge the truth are that frustrating! Thanks, it feels better to have said that

lesliedellow · May 28, 2015

Even if there was an open forum on the internet where atheists and Christians talked sensibly to one another, it wouldn't be long before the head bangers arrived.

Dawkins actually encourages ridicule as a weapon against Christian belief. Evidently, a working knowledge of human psychology, and the likely effect of ridicule, are not amongst his major accomplishments.

cloudyday2 · May 28, 2015

oi_antz said:
Not "seeker", not "honestly to most". Honestly to a lot, up to a point. But if it was honestly all the way, they would have found Him already. Doesn't take long when you set your mind to it.

I have found, quite reasonably too, that what is convincing to one person is not necessarily convincing to another. Then there will be Christians who find a Christian's evidence convincing when it is not objectively convincing, because they like to team up and support their brother. It's like Christians seem to think that anyone who does not acknowledge Jesus as Lord is someone who is lost, and heir blood is on their hands so to speak if they fail to convince them to change their mind. I understand this motivation, since that is the doctrines they have accepted. You probably see my motivation the same. But it's for me, more a concern that those who don't regard Him their Lord, they just have this wrong idea of who He is, what it means. That has to be put right, because you are one of those guys who will love Him and follow Him when you meet Him. Not everyone is that sort of person though. I still do not like to allow the wrong ideas to be portrayed about Him, and I get some sort of offended when He is mocked for being who He isn't. That's my motivation.

But I am curious at this, you have said it all one-sided. What do you say about non-believers when their logic is flawed, and when they refused to go where the Christian is leading, and instead take it back to square one, and then blame the Christian for being circular? Really man, those who are determined to not repent and acknowledge the truth are that frustrating! Thanks, it feels better to have said that

I've seen some atheists being very unreasonable in their discussions with Christians. These atheists try to hold the Christians to unreasonably high standards IMO (demanding empirical evidence, demanding responses to every counterargument, etc.) Mostly I'm curious about the personal experiences and beliefs of Christians (why do they believe? how do they practice their religion? how long have they been Christians? ...).

But you are correct that atheists sometimes make weak arguments too. The mythical Jesus theory seems to be very popular among atheists even though most professional historians accept that Christianity was probably based on a historical Jesus figure of some kind.

cloudyday2 · May 28, 2015

lesliedellow said:
Even if there was an open forum on the internet where atheists and Christians talked sensibly to one another, it wouldn't be long before the head bangers arrived.

Dawkins actually encourages ridicule as a weapon against Christian belief. Evidently, a working knowledge of human psychology, and the likely effect of ridicule, are not amongst his major accomplishments.

I've never read Dawkins, but I have read some blurbs about Sam Harris who recommended "conversational intolerance". I can see Harris' point, because traditionally atheists are expected to listen politely and say nothing in response to religious comments. That is what I usually do, because I don't like to argue with people (IRL - I don't mind arguing on the internet as much

)

cloudyday2 · May 28, 2015

annafullofgrace said:
But that is just it, as a Christian, I am content with that there are some things that I will not understand until I am in heaven. I've had atheist friends who can't wrap their head around that and will insist on an answer. For a Christian, we believe sometimes there isn't one....we have faith that God does everything for our good and sometimes we may never know the why's, but we accept it. Of course, I don't know what you may be thinking on specifically from the quote below.

When atheists point-out philosophical incoherencies, absurdities, inconsistent teachings, etc.,

Atheists can either sit back and wait for a convincing reason to believe in Christianity, or atheists can try to give convincing reasons to NOT believe in Christianity (problem of evil, evidence that modern Christian beliefs are drastically different from early Christian beliefs, ...). Assuming the atheists present good reasons NOT to believe in Christianity, then IMO Christians should try to address them. "The Lord works in mysterious ways" get a little bit threadbare after a while. Of course, I can understand that people in forums are not experts on everything. I don't think people should be expected to have an answer for everything in order to participate. (Otherwise I wouldn't be able to participate in forums.

)

annafullofgrace · May 28, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
Atheists can either sit back and wait for a convincing reason to believe in Christianity, or atheists can try to give convincing reasons to NOT believe in Christianity (problem of evil, evidence that modern Christian beliefs are drastically different from early Christian beliefs, ...). Assuming the atheists present good reasons NOT to believe in Christianity, then IMO Christians should try to address them. "The Lord works in mysterious ways" get a little bit threadbare after a while. Of course, I can understand that people in forums are not experts on everything. I don't think people should be expected to have an answer for everything in order to participate. (Otherwise I wouldn't be able to participate in forums. )

I understand that and I too, in the past was searching for reasons, but one can only provide so many answers. It ultimately boils down to faith. I do understand how that can make very little sense to a non-believer. If you have specific questions, why don't you post them here?

cloudyday2 · May 28, 2015

annafullofgrace said:
I understand that and I too, in the past was searching for reasons, but one can only provide so many answers. It ultimately boils down to faith. I do understand how that can make very little sense to a non-believer. If you have specific questions, why don't you post them here?

I am satisfied with atheism right now, so I can't think of anything to ask, but at times I am not satisfied. Unfortunately, if I am not very careful about how I ask questions, I can accidentally violate this forum's rules. If I simply say what I think, then I get into trouble - even if I say what I think as politely as possible.

That makes it harder to have a serious discussion when I do have ideas I want to discuss. But the obnoxious non-believers mentioned in the first post by Parogar, make the rules very necessary.

MiniEmu · May 28, 2015

It's always puzzled me why there cannot just be a discussion, why one someone from one side or another must come riding along and demand either the atheist or Christian have a flash bang moment of realisation. Responding to your original post:

1 - I think anyone who has a different stance to the majority on a forum aimed specifically (or perhaps generally) towards that majority are going to find themselves feeling a little worse for wear after interacting with the more passionate/less tolerant members. It rarely matters how reasonable, likeable or wonderful those members are; as a general rule (there are always exceptions) people who are so sure that what they believe is the right way to think can, on occasion, come across as being incredibly rude. If it can happen on a forum about pet rabbits, it's bound to happen on forums focused on much hotter life themes.

2 - Censorship is an interesting thing, referring back to rabbit forums there are people who are effectively censored as staff know that their view on certain things has the potential to cause the majority of members to become terribly unruly. It happens everywhere, it's a sometimes fruitless attempt to prevent a great wave of negativity before it happens. While I have certainly been a member of forums (not faith based) where uncensored discussion of faith topics was certainly allowed, members of both sides frequently pushed the boundaries of acceptable (even for the most accepting, self moderating forum). If you want to avoid escalation you focus your censorship on areas you know have the potential to get nasty. Very nasty. Unfortunately atheism on a Christian forum has that tendency (not always down to those who are atheistic either...).

3 - Is it dislike? I suppose some have had some very unpleasant encounters with those who profess to be atheists and that has led to them becoming overly suspicious of anyone who uses that label, but I tend to see more who are doing the very Christian thing of trying to poke, prod or otherwise cajole someone into embracing the Lord. People see a crack of light, a glimmer of opportunity, and they shall latch onto it. If you are not a militant atheist, then there's hope of you being saved

. Perhaps that is not the case, I do not know, I'm very much in my own little bubble and see only personality clashes and individuals from all sides seemingly trying very deliberately to provoke each other.

4 - Ah. Discussion is one thing. Demanding evidence or attempting to preach are other things. There is plenty to discuss, if people truly wish to discuss. Interpretations, belief systems, traditions; there is so much that could be discussed, and discussed wonderfully, if people were not quite so adamant on preaching/proving their points. What prevents discussion is a deep desire to be right, to be shown to be right, or dare I say it the need for the light to be brought forth before those living in the dark (and that is, sometimes, how I feel individuals from all sides are viewing the situation). Kind of prevents the discussion cog from turning. I mean, really one could say no one should really have anything to discuss because the majority know it all already... but no one really knows it all. They may think they know it all, and they may be closed off to new thoughts, but that is not the same as genuinely knowing everything you'll ever need to know about a topic.

5 - Not any more. The forum I used to enjoy has long since closed, and I am too lazy to do a proper search for forums when the majority seem to be pretty much dead or humming with the strange sound of spambots spamming an empty community.

James Is Back · May 28, 2015

Mod Hat On

Thread closed for staff review.

Mod Hat Off

James Is Back · Jun 5, 2015

Mod Hat On

Thread reopened. I will remind everyone not to turn this into a General Apologetic thread and not to flame. Discussing the relationship and interaction between Christians and atheists would be valid, and so far has been OK so make sure you stick to that and not turn this into a GA thread ok.

Mod Hat Off

aiki · Jun 5, 2015

There are a number of characterizations you've made of the Christian perspective that simply aren't accurate, cloudyday2. I don't know where you've been going to interact with Christians about their faith, but it is clear from your comments on this thread so far that you have not been going where you might encounter the best apologetic for the faith.

cloudyday2 said:
(4) Is there really anything that Christians and atheists can discuss about religion? Most atheists know all about Christianity already. Most Christians know all about atheism already. Christians can preach the same things that the atheists have heard and rejected. Atheists can ask Christians for convincing evidence that Christians can't supply.

Providing evidence to an atheist for Christian belief and providing evidence for it that they deem convincing are two very different things. The former is possible and reasonable but the latter often is not. The standard for evidence isn't whether or not the individual finds it convincing but whether or not the evidence can be shown to succeed logically, whether or not it has reasonable and effective explanatory power, and whether or not it is properly pertinent as evidence - to name just a few objective measures of evidence. Atheists, however, very often make themselves the standard for what passes as evidence. Their challenge is "convince me" when it should be "can I show that the evidence that is offered fails objectively"? I have yet to meet an atheist who can successfully do the latter.

cloudyday2 said:
Maybe it doesn't matter, because what is there to say?
Atheist: "you Christians are silly".
Christian: "you atheists must have faith".
(Not much of a conversation really.)

Again, good Christian apologists don't engage atheists this way. Check out: www.reasonablefaith.org

cloudyday2 said:
When atheists point-out philosophical incoherencies, absurdities, inconsistent teachings, etc., the Christians say "the Lord works in mysteries ways", "we will understand it better when we go to heaven", etc.

Maybe in the online circles you've been frequenting this is how things go, but there are very excellent Christian philosophers who have been effectively countering every atheist objection for a long time now. You might want to read Alvin Plantinga's works, or the writings of J.P. Moreland, or listen to the many debates of William Lane Craig.

cloudyday2 said:
The mythical Jesus theory seems to be very popular among atheists even though most professional historians accept that Christianity was probably based on a historical Jesus figure of some kind.

"Of some kind"? You need to read Dr. Gary Habermas' book "The Historical Jesus."

Selah.

cloudyday2 · Jun 5, 2015

aiki said:
There are a number of characterizations you've made of the Christian perspective that simply aren't accurate, cloudyday2. I don't know where you've been going to interact with Christians about their faith, but it is clear from your comments on this thread so far that you have not been going where you might encounter the best apologetic for the faith.

o.k., I'll concede that Christians have better philosophical arguments, historical arguments, empirical evidence arguments, etc. than I have heard. However, if this fact is true, then it highlights the need for a forum where atheists and Christians can inform each other. In most atheist forums, the Christian member probably feels like a piece of raw meat being tossed into a pool of hungry alligators. There are few restrictions on the ideas posted in atheist forums, but any interesting thoughts are lost in a flurry of splashing, thrashing, and bone crunching. On the other hand, CF apparently has no forum for apologetic debates between Christians and atheists. This forces atheists to use the Exploring Christianity forum to dialogue with Christians. Probably Exploring Christianity is designed to be an online catechism class, so the questions from atheists would be a distraction. I don't know what the solution is.

aiki said:
Providing evidence to an atheist for Christian belief and providing evidence for it that they deem convincing are two very different things. The former is possible and reasonable but the latter often is not. The standard for evidence isn't whether or not the individual finds it convincing but whether or not the evidence can be shown to succeed logically, whether or not it has reasonable and effective explanatory power, and whether or not it is properly pertinent as evidence - to name just a few objective measures of evidence. Atheists, however, very often make themselves the standard for what passes as evidence. Their challenge is "convince me" when it should be "can I show that the evidence that is offered fails objectively"? I have yet to meet an atheist who can successfully do the latter.

Hmmm. I'm not sure if I agree, but debating what are valid reasons for belief is probably too close to apologetics. (Also, it's a bit beyond me.

)

aiki said:
Again, good Christian apologists don't engage atheists this way. Check out: www.reasonablefaith.org

Somebody else mentioned that website. I will take a look to see if there is anything I haven't heard.

aiki said:
Maybe in the online circles you've been frequenting this is how things go, but there are very excellent Christian philosophers who have been effectively countering every atheist objection for a long time now. You might want to read Alvin Plantinga's works, or the writings of J.P. Moreland, or listen to the many debates of William Lane Craig.

I haven't read their books. I don't know a lot about philosophy. "the Great Pumpkin" argument stuck with me from reading wikipedia about Plantinga. I can't remember what it was, but the name is memorable.

aiki said:
"Of some kind"? You need to read Dr. Gary Habermas' book "The Historical Jesus."

o.k., I added it to my amazon list. Almost all scholars agree that Jesus was a Jew who was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified by Pontius Pilate. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise by saying "of some kind". Sorry if it seemed that way.

graceandpeace · Jun 6, 2015

cloudyday2 said:
(1) Christian members are often treated rudely on atheist forums.

(2) Non-Christian members are almost always censored on Christian forums (including this one).

From experience, I agree with both observations here.

(3) Christian forum members seem to dislike atheists. Several times I've been encouraged to label myself an an "agnostic" or a "seeker", because I seemed too reasonable to be an "atheist". After changing my label on this forum from "seeker" to "atheist", I seem to have experienced more strict enforcement of rules, suspicion of my motives, etc.

From what I've seen, I'm inclined to agree again. FWIW, I don't dislike atheists & I welcome friendly conversation.

(4) Is there really anything that Christians and atheists can discuss about religion? Most atheists know all about Christianity already. Most Christians know all about atheism already. Christians can preach the same things that the atheists have heard and rejected. Atheists can ask Christians for convincing evidence that Christians can't supply.

In general, what I've witnessed on the Internet is a lot of straw man arguments set up & discussed over & over again. The most fundamentalist approach to the Bible or Christianity gets argued about, & the other possibilities are unknown or ignored.

I think many atheists rightly object to fundamentalist ideas. I wish I could see more engagement with the other possibilities. Fundamentalist oriented Christians in the US are the loudest & most visible, unfortunately.

(5) Does anybody know of a forum where Christians and atheists lie down together like sheep and lions to have fruitful discussions?

No idea.

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