After the Thousand Years (An Interpretation of Rev. 20:7-10)

jwmealy said:

Vinsight4u,

It occurs to me that your posts on this thread are, when it comes down to it, not on topic. You're kind of obsessed with angels, but it's not clear at all how all of this microscopic examination impinges on the theory of the millennium.

My view is that the millennium begins at the glorious coming of Jesus to judge the living and the dead. Only the resurrected (and/or transformed) holy ones take part in it. Thus the rebellion after the end of it is recognizable as the resurrection of the unrepentant, which is pictured twice: first in battle imagery and then in courtroom imagery (Rev. 20:7-10 || Rev. 20:11-15). The new creation occurs at the glorious coming of Jesus, and not later. Thus Rev. 21:1-5 is yet another of the many visions of the glorious coming of Jesus in Revelation.

Do you have any new comments or questions about that?

Click to expand...

Concerning Rev. 20:11-15, when you say that those who come to life again after the millennium make up the resurrection of the unrepentant, that sounds like you are omitting others that would be included – those who never heard of Christ nor any gospel calling them to repent. If you get really picky, yes they have never repented, but that is because no gospel was told to them that they should examine themselves and repent. During the judgment of these verses, books are opened, including the book of life v.12. It strikes me, from 20:11-15, that there will be quite a few of those who live again after the millennium that will, upon hearing the Gospel and seeing its fruits in the fabulous millennial earth and its residents, repent at that time.

/

iamlamad said:

Your "proof" is anything but. Go back and read at the 6th seal. WHERE IS GOD? He is still on His throne. In case you missed it, I have admitted several times on this forum that I was wrong. Then read again that the angels don't get their trumpets until after all the seals are broken. In other words, the seals and the trumpets will take place in the exact order that John wrote them.

Click to expand...

You are correct. God is still on His throne in heaven and Jesus is there also, because He just removed the seals.
The scene John records in chapter 5, occurs in heaven.

The "Book" in Revelation chapters 5 and 6 is the Book of Revelation.

After Christ removes the seals, John is told to "come and see" what is written in the book.
This is the reason John was called up to heaven in the spirit. He is there to see the Book of Revelation.

What John saw and recorded first, in Rev. chapter 6 is the battle of Armageddon, where the wicked, kings, captains, and mighty mean are attempting to hide from the wrath of Christ. If they are attempting to hide from Christ and they are on earth, this means Jesus is on earth at that time. The scene has changed to a future event that John saw in the book, after he was told to "come and see".

The end of chapter 6 records events that occur much later in the Book of Revelation.

(I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken. Just kidding...)
.

"the angels don't get their trumpets until after all the seals are broken"


All seals must be removed before the judgments of Revelation will begin to roll

The seals are portents of the judgments to come .... and these symbolize the prevalent conditions that will prevail on the earth during the coming tribulation

The 6th seal leads up to the 7th, and then the events of the tribulation will roll .... as soon as the 144000 of the children of Israel are sealed for protection during the period

precepts said:

You keep trying to state your opinion as fact. Your opinions and whatever you say that has nothing to do with the facts has no effect on me, because your psychology doesn't work on me.

You are calling Christ and the scriptures devils, which doesn't surprise me. The Pharisees and Sadducees did too.

That's what I said, "Your psychology doesn't work on me!" Keep running from the facts. There's only one place anyone can look up from burning and witness anyone in heaven, and that's in Rev 14:10-11.

Click to expand...

Your "facts" are others' amusement.

Here is a title of a book by John Calvin:
PSYCHOPANNYCHIA
OR,
A REFUTATION OF THE ERROR ENTERTAINED
BY SOME UNSKILFUL PERSONS,
WHO IGNORANTLY IMAGINE THAT
IN THE INTERVAL BETWEEN DEATH AND THE JUDGMENT
THE SOUL SLEEPS.
TOGETHER WITH AN EXPLANATION
OF THE CONDITION AND LIFE OF THE SOUL AFTER THIS PRESENT LIFE.
by John Calvin

His title says it all: "who ignorantly imagine..."

I could not have said it better myself.

If we look at those martyrs under the altar at the 5th seal, one can easily see that their soul is not asleep! They are THINKING and wondering. Of course, anyone who can imagine that the rich man had been resurrected could find some excuse for these under the altar also.

BABerean2 said:

You are correct. God is still on His throne in heaven and Jesus is there also, because He just removed the seals.
The scene John records in chapter 5, occurs in heaven.

The "Book" in Revelation chapters 5 and 6 is the Book of Revelation.

After Christ removes the seals, John is told to "come and see" what is written in the book.
This is the reason John was called up to heaven in the spirit. He is there to see the Book of Revelation.

What John saw and recorded first, in Rev. chapter 6 is the battle of Armageddon, where the wicked, kings, captains, and mighty mean are attempting to hide from the wrath of Christ. If they are attempting to hide from Christ and they are on earth, this means Jesus is on earth at that time. The scene has changed to a future event that John saw in the book, after he was told to "come and see".

The end of chapter 6 records events that occur much later in the Book of Revelation.

(I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken. Just kidding...)
.

Click to expand...

As usual, I disagree with most of this post. The "book" or scroll (books back then were written on scrolls) was and still is the title deed or lease document to planet earth. This lease document will end up being the reason Satan is cast down. His lease will expire. However, it was absolutely necessary that someone was found worthy to break the seals, for that was the beginning of the end of Satan's reign as "god of this world." If no one was every found worthy, then Satan would forever remain as ruler of this planet. He had usurped Adam's lease, so had a legal right to have dominion: the very dominion given to Adam.

Thank God Jesus was found worthy, and began breaking the seals. Once the 7 seals are broken and the scroll can be unrolled, the trumpet judgments will come, and when the 7th trumpet is sounded, Satan loses everything, and is kicked down from his throne. But I am wasting my time, for you will believe none of this....that is until when it happens and you find out it is truth.

iamlamad said:

Your "facts" are others' amusement.

Here is a title of a book by John Calvin:
PSYCHOPANNYCHIA
OR,
A REFUTATION OF THE ERROR ENTERTAINED
BY SOME UNSKILFUL PERSONS,
WHO IGNORANTLY IMAGINE THAT
IN THE INTERVAL BETWEEN DEATH AND THE JUDGMENT
THE SOUL SLEEPS.
TOGETHER WITH AN EXPLANATION
OF THE CONDITION AND LIFE OF THE SOUL AFTER THIS PRESENT LIFE.
by John Calvin

His title says it all: "who ignorantly imagine..."

I could not have said it better myself.

If we look at those martyrs under the altar at the 5th seal, one can easily see that their soul is not asleep! They are THINKING and wondering. Of course, anyone who can imagine that the rich man had been resurrected could find some excuse for these under the altar also.

Click to expand...

Anybody that believe people were actually living under the altar, I guess, would believe anything. No wonder you can't distinguish fact from fiction. There are so many verses in scripture that calls mortal death sleep, yet still they are some who deny the fact, even to write a book on it. I don't understand the logic. If it's written, how can you deny it? Go figure.

Plus, I asked you where else but in the lake of fire can anyone still observe persons in heaven (Rev 14:10-11), and I noticed you haven't answered. Because there's only one place.

iamlamad said:

As usual, I disagree with most of this post. The "book" or scroll (books back then were written on scrolls) was and still is the title deed or lease document to planet earth. This lease document will end up being the reason Satan is cast down. His lease will expire. However, it was absolutely necessary that someone was found worthy to break the seals, for that was the beginning of the end of Satan's reign as "god of this world." If no one was every found worthy, then Satan would forever remain as ruler of this planet. He had usurped Adam's lease, so had a legal right to have dominion: the very dominion given to Adam.

Thank God Jesus was found worthy, and began breaking the seals. Once the 7 seals are broken and the scroll can be unrolled, the trumpet judgments will come, and when the 7th trumpet is sounded, Satan loses everything, and is kicked down from his throne. But I am wasting my time, for you will believe none of this....that is until when it happens and you find out it is truth.

Click to expand...

I was well aware of the fact that text was written on scrolls in ancient times, instead of books, however I did not find the rest of your post in the text of the Book of Revelation.

I can understand the concept behind the title deed to the planet, however Christ does not need a piece of paper to give Him ownership of this world.

He bought it with His Blood at Calvary.

I did not find your concept written in the text of chapters 5 or 6.

precepts said:

Anybody that believe people were actually living under the altar, I guess, would believe anything. No wonder you can't distinguish fact from fiction. There are so many verses in scripture that calls mortal death sleep, yet still they are some who deny the fact, even to write a book on it. I don't understand the logic. If it's written, how can you deny it? Go figure.

Plus, I asked you where else but in the lake of fire can anyone still observe persons in heaven (Rev 14:10-11), and I noticed you haven't answered. Because there's only one place.

Click to expand...

"in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"
It appears this is more than just seeing; it is being very near the same place.

However, this is just a side step on your side. Where do you read anything about the lake of fire here?
And yet you make another side step. In our argument it does not matter WHERE they are; what matters is that they were killed in body, yet are still alive in spirit and soul. How interesting: it is just like the rich man and like Lazarus when they died: they did not actually die as in ceasing to exist or as in soul sleep, they merely left the flesh and blood house they were living in, and kept right on living and thinking and being. They were SEPARATED from their body. Death is only separation. For the rich man, he suffered spiritual death also, which is being separated from God.

BABerean2 said:

I was well aware of the fact that text was written on scrolls in ancient times, instead of books, however I did not find the rest of your post in the text of the Book of Revelation.

I can understand the concept behind the title deed to the planet, however Christ does not need a piece of paper to give Him ownership of this world.

He bought it with His Blood at Calvary.

I did not find your concept written in the text of chapters 5 or 6.

Click to expand...

You seem real good at reading between the lines. I guess others can do it too. We do read that the kingdoms of the world will be transferred to Jesus Christ at the 7th trumpet. But WHY? Why or how did Satan achieve being the god of this planet for nearly 6000 years? And what changed so the kingdoms of the earth were taken from Satan and given to Jesus? Do you imagine only time is what changed?

precepts said:

Here's a thought: Revelation is a spiritual vision. The seals were already loosed before John's vision, but revelation is just showing John how everything comes together. The only thing that hasn't happened yet is the 7th trump. The waters turning to blood and the locusts (etc) are the Egyptian plagues, and the last or the latest of the judgements was the waters drying up to make way for the kings of the East, the Persia/Medes.

Click to expand...

You live in some kind of dream land! Did you forget how "John wept much" because no man was found worthy to open the seals? Just so you know the truth, we are right now between the 5th and 6th seals. No trumpet has sounded because the 6th and 7th seal must be opened first.

The truth is, Jesus was found worthy shortly after He rose from the dead. The moment He arrived back in the throne room, He took the scroll from the Father's right hand and began to break seals - around 33 AD. But He stopped at the 5th seal. Martyrs are still being added to that number. One day it will be the very last martyr of the church age, for the rapture will END the church age, and the 6th seal will be broken.

iamlamad said:

You seem real good at reading between the lines. I guess others can do it too. We do read that the kingdoms of the world will be transferred to Jesus Christ at the 7th trumpet. But WHY? Why or how did Satan achieve being the god of this planet for nearly 6000 years? And what changed so the kingdoms of the earth were taken from Satan and given to Jesus? Do you imagine only time is what changed?[/QUOTE]

Click to expand...

When God created the angels and man, he gave both of them free-will.

This resulted in the spiritual battle in which we find ourselves.

God knew before He formed the universe what Satan would do and what man would do.

He knew He would have to become a man and pay the ultimate price to make all things right.

Our salvation and this corrupted, sin-cursed world, were purchased on a wooden Cross.

The whole Bible is a 3 Act play about Jesus Christ.

Act 1: The Seed of the woman will come and bruise the head of the snake. He is coming.

Act 2: He is here. The Seed will live a sinless life and lay down on that Cross voluntarily. He could have prayed to the Father and had 12 Legions of angels who could save Him, but He went through the pain and death for rotten sinners like me.

Act 3: He is coming back for us, and to make all things right.

My comment

The Lord does not open the seals until the time of the end just before He executes the judgments contained therein [the coming tribulation period]

John is taken to heaven and into the future to see the things "hereafter" [Revelation 4:1] that are about to come upon the earth .... this must be, because the 24 and the great multitude of the immortal church have arrived are present in heaven to observe the Lord's opening of the seals

These will not get to heaven until the Lord calls them to immortality just before He brings His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth

And the same are seen several times in heaven during the tribulation period as Revelation unfolds

/

iamlamad said:

"in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"
It appears this is more than just seeing; it is being very near the same place.

Click to expand...

The distance isn't the issue, it's the location. What a sidestep from the fact!

iamlamad said:

However, this is just a side step on your side. Where do you read anything about the lake of fire here?

Click to expand...

You're lost. If you can read Rev 14:10-11 and ask where's the lake of fire, then there's no hope for you. Your question isn't worth answering. You're not that naive.

iamlamad said:

And yet you make another side step. In our argument it does not matter WHERE they are; what matters is that they were killed in body, yet are still alive in spirit and soul.

Click to expand...

The argument wasn't yours. The fact is there's only one place you can go after death and see persons in heaven. Do your people in Hell see persons in heaven close enough to have a conversation?

iamlamad said:

How interesting: it is just like the rich man and like Lazarus when they died: they did not actually die as in ceasing to exist or as in soul sleep, they merely left the flesh and blood house they were living in, and kept right on living and thinking and being. They were SEPARATED from their body. Death is only separation. For the rich man, he suffered spiritual death also, which is being separated from God.

Click to expand...

That's the same lie the serpent told in the garden. "If you eat of the fruit, you shall not surely die!" You're not that ignorant.

Every reply you make is a side step: You're purposely preaching false doctrine because you know Christ and scripture says it's sleep. Only, you misinterpret scripture and ignore facts to make your claims. Scripture has never said man is a everliving spirit.

My last proof is Samuel being raised from his rest/sleep by Saul and the witch.

You are running from the facts, but the interesting part is that you try to flip the script.

iamlamad said:

You live in some kind of dream land! Did you forget how "John wept much" because no man was found worthy to open the seals?

Click to expand...

You are so void of logic. John's weeping has nothing to do with the visions.

iamlamad said:

Just so you know the truth, we are right now between the 5th and 6th seals. No trumpet has sounded because the 6th and 7th seal must be opened first.

Click to expand...

Proverbs says reproof enters more into a wise man than 100 stripes into a fool. What truth do you have? If that was the truth, the world wouldn't have different interpretations. It is your opinion that you are trying to pass off as fact!

iamlamad said:

The truth is, Jesus was found worthy shortly after He rose from the dead. The moment He arrived back in the throne room, He took the scroll from the Father's right hand and began to break seals - around 33 AD. But He stopped at the 5th seal. Martyrs are still being added to that number. One day it will be the very last martyr of the church age, for the rapture will END the church age, and the 6th seal will be broken.

Click to expand...

iamlamad 21:3-51.

Where are the proofs? Am I suppose to take you word for it because you say it is so? Where's the logic in that?

I rest my case.

/

Straightshot said:

My comment

The Lord does not open the seals until the time of the end just before He executes the judgments contained therein [the coming tribulation period]

Click to expand...

Obviously this is your opinion because you have no proof.

Straightshot said:

John is taken to heaven and into the future to see the things "hereafter" [Revelation 4:1] that are about to come upon the earth .... this must be, because the 24 and the great multitude of the immortal church have arrived are present in heaven to observe the Lord's opening of the seals

Click to expand...

You haven't a clue. The vision of the beasts were things to come, but the other visions were of the past, the woman clothed with sun for example.

Straightshot said:

These will not get to heaven until the Lord calls them to immortality just before He brings His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon the earth

Click to expand...

The 24 elders are Jews. God has a hedge around him, the Levites. Christians are grafted in occupying a back seat.

Straightshot said:

And the same are seen several times in heaven during the tribulation period as Revelation unfolds

Click to expand...

The book of Straightshot 12:34-65.

vinsight4u said:

The 7th seal brings with it silence and the return of the seven
angels!
The trumpets are already over!

This is why we find the seven angels.
in Rev. 8:2
They are the did something already seven angels.

Click to expand...

The seals, trumps, and vials do not happen chronologically as listed in Revelation, in my opinion. They happen by numbers: the first seal, first trump, and the first vial; then the 2nd seal, 2nd trump, an the 2nd vial; etc. Historically the first 4 seals were the 5th and 6th trumps, the releasing of the Angels bound before the flood, released as the 4 horsemen in seals 1-4, and also as the locust and pestilences during the Egyptian plagues at the 5th and 6th trumps. Trumps 1-4 (5 and 6 also) and vials 1-5 are the plagues in Egypt. The 6th vial is the Euphrates being dried up for the Persia/Medes, the 7th vial is Christ on the cross saying "it is done," and the 7th trump is the ascension. We are not awaiting the 7th trump as I mistakenly said earlier, my bad. We are awaiting Christ return with the trump of God (the wheat and tares rapture/harvest).

I can only equate the 7th seal with the 5th and 6th seals as occurring after Christ's ascension and the Throne set in heaven scene.