am I the only protestant that does this?

FireDragon76 · May 26, 2015

I ask for prayers from people that have died that I believe evidenced some sign of holiness in their life. Sometimes I feel like I'm probably one of the few Protestants doing that, but I do go to Lutheran and Episcopalian churches, and I spent time as an Orthodox catechumen.

Open Heart · May 26, 2015

I didn't know that Lutherans prayed to the saints, but I know that Anglicans do, and they are considered Via Media--in the middle of the road between Protestantism and Catholicism. I'm glad that you feel comfortable doing so, Protestant or not. I'm sure you are going to take some guff for it though.

FireDragon76 · May 27, 2015

A few do... most I'd venture do not. There are apparently a few ELCA Lutherans pastors that have a veneration of saints as private devotion, or who talk about how some of their Hispanic parishioners keep this Catholic practice (particularly devotion and prayers to Our Lady of Guadalupe), and they are learning to appreciate it.

In theory, there is nothing in the Augsburg Confession to make it illicit, but the general Lutheran argument in the past was "there is nothing in the Bible to say it would be effective or meaningful to do so" and that the practice was subject to abuse. All of which seem like weak arguments (the Eucharist itself can be subject to abuse, and Scriptures are silent on many things we take for granted).

I've been involved with Episcopalians... my experience is many of them are far less "catholic" than you'ld think. Outwardly they look very liturgical, but their theology is often Reformed, or Reformed-influenced (so you can have a priest in a chausible that has a relatively low view of the sacraments).

There is an Anglican shrine to the Virgin Mary in the UK in Walsingham but it still gets the rare protest by Puritans and free-churchers, sadly.

South Bound · May 27, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
Am I the only Protestant who does this?

I ask for prayers from people that have died

I hope you are. I would hope most Protestants would know better than to engage in necromancy.

South Bound · May 27, 2015

Open Heart said:
I didn't know that Lutherans prayed to the saints

They don't. Every Lutheran I know of would be quick to condemn this pagan practice.

Open Heart · May 27, 2015

South Bound said:
I hope you are. I would hope most Protestants would know better than to engage in necromancy.

Necromancy is asking the dead for advice. Nothing about asking for prayers is asking for advice.

FireDragon76 · May 27, 2015

Open Heart said:
Necromancy is asking the dead for advice. Nothing about asking for prayers is asking for advice.

Yeah... when I would ask for intercessory prayer, I am not expecting a two-way conversation, nor am I seeking occult information ,which is usually what necromancy is about (and is considered sinful traditionally by all Christians). So, I don't see it as necromancy, which I would agree is not a good thing to get into.

South Bound · May 27, 2015

Open Heart said:
Necromancy is asking the dead for advice. Nothing about asking for prayers is asking for advice.

The Bible doesn't make such a distinction. We are forbidden from contacting the dead. Period.

Having debated this issue with Catholics many times, here's how you're going to respond:

First, you'll say that the dead aren't really dead. In which case I will respond to you by asking, who are the people the Bible calls "the dead in Christ". You, then, will ignore my question, and cite Luke 20:38, proclaiming that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, while completely ignoring Romans 14:9 that says that Christ is Lord of both the living and the dead.

You will then ignore that verse and go on to remind me about the Mount of Transfiguration in Matthew 17, in which Jesus takes Peter, James, and John up to a high mountain where He spoke with Moses and Elijah. I will, of course, remind you that (a) only Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah, (b) that Jesus did so while in a transfigured state, in which, more than any time during His incarnation, He manifested His divine state, and (c) that Jesus Christ, in His authority as God, as the Lord of both the living and dead, has privileges and authorities that are not extended to man.

After that, of course, you'll start grasping straws and move on to Hebrews 12, and the "great cloud of witnesses", upon which time I will remind you that this does not refer to a literal grandstand full of disembodied spirits, but is a metaphor, referring to the testimonies of those saints (and, by "saints", I mean saints in the Biblical sense, not saints in the Roman Catholic "do a couple of card tricks from beyond the grave and your in" sense) who have gone before and who's lives serve to be an encouragement and a testimony to us, and that nowhere in the passage do we see anyone attempting to contact or to pray to them.

Finally, you'll tell me about Revelation 5, in which we're told that the elders hold bowls of insense which are the prayers of the saints, and I'll remind you that the passage says nothing about our praying to them or their being able to hear us.

Does that about sum it up? Would you like to move on to Purgatory next and tell me how the purpose of Purgatory isn't really to expiate sin?

South Bound · May 27, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
Yeah... when I would ask for intercessory prayer, I am not expecting a two-way conversation, nor am I seeking occult information ,which is usually what necromancy is about (and is considered sinful traditionally by all Christians). So, I don't see it as necromancy, which I would agree is not a good thing to get into.

Good luck with that.

Open Heart · May 27, 2015

South Bound said:
The Bible doesn't make such a distinction. We are forbidden from contacting the dead. Period.

No, we are forbidden from Necromancy, which has a definition: consulting with the dead for advice. No where in the Bible is asking the dead for prayers forbidden. You say you've been around the block with Catholics on this a few times. Sadly, you admit you don't listen when they bring up the transfiguration. Jesus is our example. As he was fully man as well as fully God, we do as he did. Yada yada yada. Sounds like you've had good catholic witness. Maybe someday your heart will soften.

South Bound · May 27, 2015

Open Heart said:
No, we are forbidden from Necromancy, which has a definition: consulting with the dead for advice.

The Bible never makes that distinction.

No where in the Bible is asking the dead for prayers forbidden.

First of all, why would you pray to anyone but God?

Second, why would you pray to the dead to pray for you when you can just ask the living?

Third, what makes you think the prayers of the dead on your behalf are any more efficacious or that the dead can even hear you?

As for the Bible not forbidding it, Deuteronomy 18:11, 1 Samuel 28:1-25, and 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 all forbid it.

Sadly, you admit you don't listen when they bring up the transfiguration.

Actually, I never said I don't listen to them when they bring it up. Is your case really that weak that you have to lie about me, too?

Jesus is our example.

When Jesus taught us to pray, did He teach us to pray to God or to the dead?

Sounds like you've had good catholic witness. Maybe someday your heart will soften.

Childish ad hom duly noted.

Open Heart · May 27, 2015

South Bound said:
The Bible never makes that distinction.

The Bible uses the word Necromancy, which has a definition. Suck it up.

First of all, why would you pray to anyone but God?

Because scripture says we are to pray one for another, and that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. Who are more righteous than those now with the Lord? So I ask them for their prayers.

Second, why would you pray to the dead to pray for you when you can just ask the living?

Just answered this.

Third, what makes you think the prayers of the dead on your behalf are any more efficacious or that the dead can even hear you?

Answered the first part already. I believe they can hear me because the saints heaven pray for us in Revelation and because the Creed teaches the communion of saints.

As for the Bible not forbidding it, Deuteronomy 18:11, 1 Samuel 28:1-25, and 1 Chronicles 10:13-14 all forbid it.

If you really wanted me to see these verses you would have quoted them. I did bother to look up the Deut one, and just as I suspected, it said nothing about asking the dead for their prayers. It only talked about mediums consulting with the dead, which is a whole different thing. I suspect the rest of your verses would be more of the same.

FireDragon76 · May 27, 2015

Praying for the intercession of another human being is not that different from asking a friend to pray for you. We could pray directly to God, after all. But sometimes we are moved to ask others to pray for us. There are many benefits to this. The Bible tells us the prayer of a righteous person is worth a lot. It also strengthens the ties of solidarity and love we should have as Christians.

Furthermore, it strengthens faith, it is a potential means of grace, because it means I acknowledge that those individuals have eternal life in Christ, that in him, they too have conquered death. So ultimately it is about magnifying Christ's glory, not diminishing it. It is an affirmation of faith in itself, and a proclamation of the Gospel message that "he who believes in me will never die". (John 11:26) In the words of John Chrysostom, the early Byzantine Church bishop and preacher, "Christ is risen and not one dead remains in the tomb".

It is true there are no biblical guarantees that anyone who has fallen asleep in the Lord hears such prayers, but we know from reading the Revelation to John that they are conscious and present the prayers of the faithful to God. And the Christian tradition is full of stories of how God has honored such prayers. Not just isolated cases, but a great number. So while the Bible may not be all that clear on the issue, Christian tradition is not unambiguous.

I would say it is only potentially abused when we use these prayers as a substitute for the ordinary means of grace that Christ ordained, or where the saints are used to cover pagan practices (such as in Santeiria), divorced from Christian belief.

South Bound · May 27, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
Praying for the intercession of another human being is not that different from asking a friend to pray for you.

Actually, it's quite a bit different.

For one, your friend is not dead and there's no prohibition against contacting him.

For another, we generally don't ascribe omnipresence to our friends. You must do that when praying to the dead.

Third, we don't pray to our friends.

Fourth, our friends, not being dead, can hear our request for their prayers. The dead cannot hear your prayers.

We could pray directly to God, after all. But sometimes we are moved to ask others to pray for us. There are many benefits to this. The Bible tells us the prayer of a righteous person is worth a lot.

Why do you assume the dead are more righteous than the living? How do you know the dead person you're praying to isn't in Purgatory?

It also strengthens the ties of solidarity and love we should have as Christians.

How does violating God's prohibition against necromancy strengthen "love and solidarity"?

Furthermore, it strengthens faith, it is a potential means of grace, because it means I acknowledge that those individuals have eternal life in Christ, that in him, they too have conquered death.

If they conquered death, how did they do so? Why does the Bible tell us Jesus conquered death?

So ultimately it is about magnifying Christ's glory, not diminishing it.

I'm not sure you can justify sin by saying it "magnifies Christ's glory", but if you think that will help you when you stand before God, then I guess that's your problem.

It is an affirmation of faith in itself, and a proclamation of the Gospel message that "he who believes in me will never die". (John 11:26)

And yet, they did die?

In the words of John Chrysostom, the early Byzantine Church bishop and preacher, "Christ is risen and not one dead remains in the tomb".

And when, exactly, did the resurrection of the dead take place?

It is true there are no biblical guarantees that anyone who has fallen asleep in the Lord hears such prayers, but we know from reading the Revelation to John that they are conscious and present the prayers of the faithful to God.

The bowls of incense in Revelation 5 are prayers to God, not prayers to the dead.

And the Christian tradition is full of stories of how God has honored such prayers.

I see. So then, you're basing your doctrine on anecdotal evidence, not on scripture. By that logic, it's hard to imagine any sin you can' justify.

So while the Bible may not be all that clear on the issue, Christian tradition is not unambiguous.

Why do you believe the three verses I provided are not clear?

FireDragon76 · May 27, 2015

They are glorified in Christ if they are in heaven. They are more righteous than the living. That is the promise of Christian faith and the Gospel, to be perfected and glorified as Christ is glorified, to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). If you have not been told this, you have not been told the whole Gospel.

I'm not trying to justify sin, but I do see a Christian as having certain liberties. We are not under a law, but grace. Whatever is not prohibited by the Bible or clear reasoning from it, is not to be condemned. In a way, your arguments amounts to the sort of legalism St. Paul preached against.

And yet, they did die?

It's a mystery of faith, but I would be careful here because Christ's words are clear, those who believe in him never die.

MoreCoffee · May 27, 2015

South Bound said:
I hope you are. I would hope most Protestants would know better than to engage in necromancy.

South Bound said:
They don't. Every Lutheran I know of would be quick to condemn this pagan practice.

Isn't it strange, given your post's stated condemnation of these things as both necromancy and paganism, that the Lord Jesus Christ would tell a story in which Abraham converses with a man recently dead and that the Lord uses this story as a lesson in the truth that what one does in this life influences what one will receive as reward or punishment in the next. But I guess there is some slight of hand by which this story will be cleansed of its implicit paganism and necromancy. Yet Christians through many centuries have both known and believed that prayers asking the saints for their prayers to God on behalf of those still on Earth are both right and beneficial.

See Luke chapter sixteen verses nineteen through thirty one.

Albion · May 27, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
A few do... most I'd venture do not.

That's right, and the church's standards are at odds with what you described in the OP.

I've been involved with Episcopalians... my experience is many of them are far less "catholic" than you'ld think. Outwardly they look very liturgical, but their theology is often Reformed, or Reformed-influenced (so you can have a priest in a chausible that has a relatively low view of the sacraments).

I was pretty much with you until that last comment about 'low view of the sacraments.' I have no idea how you'd come by that idea. If you've actually experienced it, I'd call it quite exceptional.

Open Heart · May 27, 2015

South Bound said:
Third, we don't pray to our friends.

Actually we do, although it is no longer common to call it prayer any more. See definitions #4 and #5
Pray [prey]
verb (used with object)
1.to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2.to offer (a prayer).
3.to bring, put, etc., by praying:to pray a soul into heaven.
4.to make earnest petition to (a person).
5.to make petition or entreaty for; crave:She prayed his forgiveness.

It is these same definitions 4 and 5 that we use when praying to the saints, as we are petitioning for their prayers.

FireDragon76 · May 27, 2015

I actually don't believe in purgatory in that way, it's not a doctrine I subscribe to. I think when we die we get judged immediately, if we have committed sins, we have to face up to them before we move on to heaven.

I'm not too worried about standing before God. I believe I do that every day.

Open Heart · May 27, 2015

South Bound said:
The dead cannot hear your prayers.

That is an assumption of yours. Others of us assume the opposite.

am I the only protestant that does this?

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